I thought that this game was supposed to be skill-based...

[scalliano]

...and then I was introduced to the Cursed Prowler.

 

You know, I learned to love the Marauder after a time - sure, his health pool appears to have vastly increased in TAG2 but at least you can learn one of many effective methods to put him down.

 

This toxic green arsehole, though, I'm not so sure. Let's start with his abilities - his fireball is poisoned, meaning if you're hit once with it your health constantly goes down. Add to that, once you're cursed, he is completely invulnerable to all of your attacks except the Blood Punch. Oh, and you can't dash anymore to catch him. And he can still teleport like the regular Prowler.

 

Now that you've read this summary, can you see the issue? One of my biggest complaints with TAG1 was what I like to call "Saints Row Syndrome", named such because of the fourth game in the series which gave you a bunch of superpowers pretty much at the start of the game and then spent the entirety of your playthrough contriving excuses to take them away from you. Both of DE's missionpacks do this to an obnoxious degree - in TAG1, pretty much every new enemy type (bosses included) had a projectile which slowed you down, pretty much freezing you in place when hit more than once.

 

Now we have this arsehole who invariably attacks you from behind and pretty much the only way you're putting him down when he hits you is if by some amazing happenstance he crosses your path and you have a Blood Punch charged up. This has a knock-on effect - the Punch is no longer a reliable crowd control attack because you have to save it to take care of him. The only reliable way to get rid of him is to know when and where he spawns in every encounter, which isn't really reliable at all, given how chaotic the combat is in DE. I lost 3 lives in Reclaimed Earth's first Escalation simply because I got stuck in a corner being casually shredded by every demon in the arena and ever the Hammer was useless because within seconds they were all back on top of me again. This is the closest I have ever come to ragequitting.

 

The Marauder was created to test the abilities you had acquired and learned up to that point in the game. He forces you to use all of them He does not take them away from you. These fuckers do, and that isn't fun, no matter what way you try to spin it. Looking forward to Immora, where they are no doubt combined with the Blood Maykrs just to really hammer home the "fuck you"...

[Kristian Nebula]

My first UN run was indeed ended in Immora by a poison shot by a Cursed Prowler with a Blood Maykr lurking nearby, and Mancubus finally getting a direct hit on me from somewhere while I was running after the Prowler. I didn't test if meathook slingshots were still possible, if they are you should be able to move faster to the direction of the Cursed Prowler and blood punch it away.

[Taurus Daggerknight]

Cursed Prowler in general was a pretty useless addition. Just annoying enough to be, well, annoying, but not enough to seriously add to any sense of challenge or difficulty unless he scores a lucky hit. 

 

In general, I'm not a huge fan of the increasing number of foes that have a "one way and one way only to solve" quality to them. It was fine for a few beasties, but across both TAG's, they've started to get a little carried away with the gimmicks. 

[Martin-CAI]

Maybe the way to balance it is being able to kill him with any weapon, because it feels too punishing that, on top of the fact that you lose health and you're slowed down, you have to kill him in one particular way. Because yeah, if you don't luckily have blood punch recharged, basically your run is over in UN.

 

After the main campaign, it seems that they started struggling with the task of finding a good difficulty balance in both expansions. Maybe time was what they needed to properly test the encounters and how new monsters affect the gameplay. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Martin-CAI

[Hunting4r2d2]

7 minutes ago, Martin-CAI said:

Maybe the way to balance it is to be able to kill him with any weapon, because it feels too punishing that, on top of the fact that you lose health and you're slowed down, you have to kill him in one particular way. Because yeah, if you don't luckily have blood punch recharged, bassically your run is over in UN.

 

After the main campaign, it seems that they started struggling with the task of finding a good difficulty balance in both expansions. Maybe time was what they needed to properly test the encounters and how new monsters affect the gameplay. 

This is how the cursed prowler should have been designed. I like the idea of a demon that applies a debuff and forces you to kill him in order to get rid of it. However, forcing you to use a melee attack when the debuff affects your movement makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

 

[Chezza]

The cursed prowler is definitely my least favoruite enemy. I understand the intent of it but for the points scallino mentioned, it just ruins the flow, therefore fun of Eternal.

 

What they should have done is make the curse prowler take away Blood Punch and Hammer until you kill it by any means. It's a big disadvantage to lose those in a difficult fight, making it a high priority, but doesn't take away the good mechanics that makes Eternal fun.

 

The armoured Baron, now that's a fun fight.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Chezza

[Kristian Nebula]

7 minutes ago, Chezza said:

The armoured Baron, now that's a fun fight.

 

Yes, I always try to get rid of him before the armor comes back on. Genious!

[thewormofautumn]

57 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

In general, I'm not a huge fan of the increasing number of foes that have a "one way and one way only to solve" quality to them. It was fine for a few beasties, but across both TAG's, they've started to get a little carried away with the gimmicks

This x 1million

the series became too restrictive

[Arbys550]

I agree that the cursed prowler is awful, but disagree with the point about the slowdown mechanics in TAG 1. At least in TAG 1 you could dodge the projectiles if you were good enough. With the cursed prowler it just teleports right behind you and scratches you which is completely unfair in my opinion. I think it would be a good monster if it couldn't teleport, and you could meathook it.

[whatup876]

I think the problem is that Prowlers were already unique for having teleportation and 3 fireballs at once.

A "cursed" enemy could have been a different type like another Imp or the Gargoyle.

Because i thought a "poison" enemy could have been interesting, since it's technically a new attack.

[Caffeine Freak]

The Cursed Prowler is the worst addition in the game, right next to the Blood Makyr. The Blood Makyr at least only *temporarily* slows the player down with his attack, and doesn't take away all your abilities. His attacks are somewhat balanced out by his generally slow movement and the fact that he's almost perfectly still when vulnerable.

 

I was frustrated with the Marauder when first encountering him, and then I learned his attack patterns, and how to REALLY use the tools at my disposal to kill him in a variety of ways. The same can be said of all the other more difficult enemy types in DLC 1 and 2, including Spirit-Possessed enemies and the Blood Makyr. Learn their attack patterns, learn their weaknesses, learn the weapons that work best against them, and even if they get the jump on you, you still usually have a chance to take them out and get back in the game.

 

None of this applies to the Cursed Prowler, because if he gets the jump on you even *once*, (which the Prowler is already primarily designed to do), you lose ALL your special movement tools, and have to rely on ONE particular method to get them back. Thus, all the countless hours of practice with your tools and movement techniques that have been hammered into you by the base game and two expansions suddenly become meaningless when you're hit by this guy, because you can't bloody *use* those tools or techniques. And if you don't have a Blood Punch, good luck acquiring one in that handicapped state.

 

Pure bullshit.

[Hunting4r2d2]

4 hours ago, Chezza said:

The armoured Baron, now that's a fun fight.

I agree, wished we could fought a possessed one, but I'm sure that'll come in one of the master levels.

[Duke of Pathoris]

The Cursed Prowler wouldn't be so annoying if I could lunge at them. And if it was only like for 10 seconds instead of until blood punch.

[Azuris]

Yep, i've just stopped playing the Game after the Prawler got a lucky hit with me and i couldn't chase him because i just don't want something like that.

Its only purpose is to go on your nerves.

Thats no Fun, thats not challanging, thats only annoying.

I'll only replay the Main Game.

[Job]

Breaking rules, breaking established expectations via loopholes just to artificially increase challenge reminds me of the advent of mappers placing an archvile in a hidden monster closet with a clear line of sight. It's not fun, it's not challenging, it's lazy development and just irritating.

[scalliano]

"We're okay with frustrating the player..."

 

Yeah, no fucking shit, Hugo. And there's nothing more frustrating than serendipity.

[Stoltzmann]

3 hours ago, Job said:

it's lazy development and just irritating.

 

I am sure TAG 2 is like it is due to time constraints. I belive in Marty, Hugo and all guys at Id, most certainly with enough time their next game will be even better in every way than already amazing doom eternal :)

 

[Hunting4r2d2]

22 minutes ago, Stoltzmann said:

 

I am sure TAG 2 is like it is due to time constraints. I belive in Marty, Hugo and all guys at Id, most certainly with enough time their next game will be even better in every way than already amazing doom eternal :)

 

Yea, you can tell it was rushed, no thanks to all the shit going on in Texas as well as COVID. Even though I think TAG 1 was better, I can still sense the passion put in TAG 2, and overall I still think it is a good piece of DLC, I just don't think it has the same level of quality as the first or the base game. With that said, I'm still excited to see what id brings to the future of Eternal.

[Chubzdoomer]

Just imagine a room full of these guys, LOL.  There'd be a bunch of medkits/potions scattered around to help make up for the constant health loss as well as several Blood Punch recharges (just like in areas where you're swarmed by Pinkies).  You'd basically be playing a game of "tag"!

 

Come to think of it... that'd actually be kind of fun.  It makes me wish we saw more creative scenarios like that.  It's disappointing how many battles end up feeling like the same scenario you've fought through dozens of times before.  Oh well, at least they did something cool at the end of TAG 2 by giving you a shitton of shotgun ammo when they threw a barrage of Stone Imps at you.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Chubzdoomer

[Hunting4r2d2]

Good news, they're gonna rework the cursed prowler:

 

[Duke of Pathoris]

On 3/24/2021 at 11:24 AM, Caffeine Freak said:

The Cursed Prowler is the worst addition in the game, right next to the Blood Makyr. The Blood Makyr at least only *temporarily* slows the player down with his attack, and doesn't take away all your abilities. His attacks are somewhat balanced out by his generally slow movement and the fact that he's almost perfectly still when vulnerable.

Never played higher than HMP but I never found the Blood Makyr to be worse than the Marauder.

[NoXion]

Yeah, I don't remember having any real problems with the Blood Maykr, which is why I found it puzzling that Id decided to give it a longer vulnerability window. Were people really finding it that troublesome? Mind you I also have rarely played on higher than HMP, maybe the Blood Maykr is trickier on higher difficulties?

It seems to me that Id have in some ways underestimated their creation. I think that they're just now starting to appreciate the vast gulf between the least skilled and the most skilled players of Doom Eternal. I think that makes some sense of the apparent "dumbing down" of the difficulty of the DLCs and the demons' behaviour, and why Hugo is putting the emphasis on the Master Levels in terms of providing challenges to advanced players.

[chemo]

I don't think the Cursed Prowler is that bad TBH. Yeah, I think maybe they should be reworked so Blood Punch isn't required to kill them in a "cursed" state, but they're not too much of a pain as long as you keep moving and are aware of your surroundings.

 

If you can get your sights on them before they hit you, you can easily meathook into them and take them out with a single SSG blast.

Edited March 25, 2021 by chemo

[RaikohZX]

One big problem they have is being the ambush enemy type. There's not even a sound cue or a unique audio for them, no way to know one's in the area until you've already encountered it or played things before. It exists almost entirely to be a "Gotcha!" moment (no, not to Doom II) on your first playthrough and a UN run ender, because there's only like three of the damn things in the campaign, and if you can catch it before it hits you it dies just as easily as any regular Prowler. It's one thing to be surprise-slapped by a teleporting jerk without even seeing him first, it's another when their slaps turn your legs into jello and require a strong slap back after they already teleported away.

 

Maybe you can't just remove them now that they're here, but if they never existed in the first place they wouldn't really leave some gaping hole in TAG2's pacing or design.

Edited March 25, 2021 by RaikohZX

[Frank Harper]

3 hours ago, NoXion said:

Yeah, I don't remember having any real problems with the Blood Maykr, which is why I found it puzzling that Id decided to give it a longer vulnerability window.

I can imagine that on PC Blood Maykr is no problem at all, but on consoles (i`m playing Eternal on Ps4) it`s pain in a butt when you or he is surrounded by enemies. Maybe they should rewert nerf to Blood Maykr on PC but left it on consoles?

[chemo]

1 hour ago, RaikohZX said:

One big problem they have is being the ambush enemy type. There's not even a sound cue or a unique audio for them, no way to know one's in the area until you've already encountered it or played things before. It exists almost entirely to be a "Gotcha!" moment (no, not to Doom II) on your first playthrough and a UN run ender, because there's only like three of the damn things in the campaign, and if you can catch it before it hits you it dies just as easily as any regular Prowler. It's one thing to be surprise-slapped by a teleporting jerk without even seeing him first, it's another when their slaps turn your legs into jello and require a strong slap back after they already teleported away.

 

Maybe you can't just remove them now that they're here, but if they never existed in the first place they wouldn't really leave some gaping hole in TAG2's pacing or design.

All Prowlers make rather distinct Predator-esque clicking sounds whenever they're present. The Cursed Prowler's sounds also seem to be a bit deeper/echoey than the standard variant, but I'm not sure.

[RookieSlayer]

7 hours ago, NoXion said:

Yeah, I don't remember having any real problems with the Blood Maykr, which is why I found it puzzling that Id decided to give it a longer vulnerability window. Were people really finding it that troublesome? Mind you I also have rarely played on higher than HMP, maybe the Blood Maykr is trickier on higher difficulties?

It seems to me that Id have in some ways underestimated their creation. I think that they're just now starting to appreciate the vast gulf between the least skilled and the most skilled players of Doom Eternal. I think that makes some sense of the apparent "dumbing down" of the difficulty of the DLCs and the demons' behaviour, and why Hugo is putting the emphasis on the Master Levels in terms of providing challenges to advanced players.

 

Missing the window is just annoying, its a waiting game. Even worse for console players as headshots are more difficult. I hate waiting for an enemy to do something before I can attack it. So I'm glad they adjusted that. I don't think id expected the elite players to be as good as they are. I hope Master levels are challenging but at the same time fair. I hate fog and purple slug levels. I hope the master levels are as challenging as the master level of SGN but not so much more than that.

[Caffeine Freak]

@Duke of Pathoris@NoXionI always play on Nightmare, so yeah, the Blood Makyr is more of a threat there. The thing is, it's not so much the Blood Makyr himself, it's that he always creates an opening for other enemies, either by slowing the player down with his projectile, or by the player voluntarily slowing down in order to get a headshot in during his vulnerability window. If you're a headshot expert, this is no problem. If your accuracy isn't always great, it becomes a frustrating experience of waiting for his shield to lower, missing, and then playing the waiting game again whilst making sure you're enough out of the way of other enemies to safely take another shot at the Makyr when you can. 

[Job]

What we really need is a Possessed Cursed Prowler. First, you need a Blood Punch to get the spirit out, then you have to microwave it, then use another blood punch to actually kill the Cursed Prowler. 

 

Are you listening, id? Make it so, unleash the suffering. 

[bobbie424242]

53 minutes ago, Job said:

What we really need is a Possessed Cursed Prowler. First, you need a Blood Punch to get the spirit out, then you have to microwave it, then use another blood punch to actually kill the Cursed Prowler. 

 

Are you listening, id? Make it so, unleash the suffering. 

 

Not only that but in a room with only purple goo with tentacles everywhere, a buff totem and an Archiville.

There are myriad ways to troll players in Doom Eternal and I have no doubt upcoming Master Levels will make use of some of these.

Edited March 26, 2021 by bobbie424242