How would you have designed TAG2's final boss differently? [spoilers]

[I Drink Lava]

The one universal criticism I have found from every player of every skill level is that the Dark Lord is a bad final boss. It's slow, flat, dragged-out across five nearly identical phases, and overall just underwhelming in scope compared to both the Icon of Sin and Samur. However, it's easy to just complain about a product rather than to give actual constructive feedback. That's why I'm putting my money where my mouth is and I'm going to tell this public forum exactly what I expected out the Dark Lord final boss fight before launch.

 

The most obvious thing would be a real 1-on-1 fight between you and the Dark Lord, no wannabe Hulk Buster armor. He is, after all, "you in their world". The Dark Lord should be 1:1 in abilities with the Slayer, someone we believe could slaughter the hordes of Hell and rise up as its warrior ruler. Well, before the idiotic retcon, that is. The Dark Lord should essentially be a hybrid of the Tyrant, Doom Hunter, Marauder, and Gladiator in a small, speedy Marauder form factor. The arena shouldn't be flat, either, but a big, vertical, 1v1 Deathmatch-style arena complete with Meathook platforming to tie the DLC's themes together. The arenas could change in complexity throughout the phases, too. I don't think the fight should be set in a random building in the center of Immora away from all the action, but rather in the heart of the battlefield as both sides cease-fire and watch the fate of the universe unfold.

 

There are ideas in the actual fight we got that I like, such as the constant grenade spam to keep you moving, the changes of scenery, and the fact that the Dark Lord has the ability to draw health from his enemies. I think it would've been more interesting if instead of hurting you for more health, he would hunt down the random zombies in the arena and glory kill them to deny you of the resources they provide. I have heard people say that a small, fast boss would be too hard for gamepad players and they needed a big, dumb suit of armor boss. I don't believe that at all. The Marauder is fairly small and he's much more mobile than any other enemy.

 

The Dark Lord should have non-hitscan Hell equivalents of all the Slayer's weapons, and would cycle between them depending on how you approach him:

• Spoiler

   

  • Try to PB+Ballista him from afar and he'd counter with Chaingun energy shield, using the Riot Soldier's projectile but with a more erratic spread. PB+SSG up-close and he'll ram you with the energy shield for a devastating blow. Counter his energy shield with your own and you both get sent flying backwards to the opposite sides of the arena.
  • From medium distance, he would spray Micro Missiles sort of like the Tyrant and Doom Hunter but harder to dodge. Occasionally, he would also switch to the Rocket Launcher and do a slow Lock-on Burst that chases you around the arena for a limited duration before exploding. The time spent locking on could be a vulnerability window.
  • Just like the Marauder, he could SSG you if you get too close which would be his only hitscan weapon. Maybe he could Full Auto you, with a spin-up time as the vulnerability window.
  • If you try to air camp, he could switch to a Microwave Beam to lock you in place. His version wouldn't do any damage; rather a bar would appear on your HUD and when it fills up, you'd explode. The bar appearing would be your cue to PB or Ballista to knock him back.
  • They could've also turned the combo mechanics against you by having the Dark Lord set up combos. He could launch you in the air with a rocket or grenade, then either Ballista you (with the Tyrant beam telegraph) or Meathooking into you and SSG'ing you or Blood Punching you. The explosion could temporarily take away mid-air control, forcing you to either air dash or Meathook to a Meathook platform at the last second.
  • Maybe his version of the Flame Belch could be actual fire breath, since he's the devil and all. Instead of an Ice Bomb, he could have a Fire Bomb that ignites the ground for AoE damage.
  • Once you get him into the third or fourth phase, he would pull out the super weapons. Given the in-universe explanation for the Unmaykr, it would only make sense if he had his own Unmaykr as a spread projectile that requires precision dodging like Gladiator's wave beams.
  • Being the ultimate evil in all of Doom and the Slayer's equal, it only makes sense that the Dark Lord would have an anti-BFG9000 made with the Hell technology that is referenced in the Intern's dialogue. This would be the potential UN-run ender, a weapon that can only be stopped by attacking him during the charge-up time or firing your own BFG9000 projectile at it to counter it out. A successful counter could give you back BFG ammo.
  • To make the anti-BFG9000 fair, maybe he could only use it after getting ammo for it by chainsawing zombies with a Quake 3-type gauntlet made of bone. This could increase the pressure of having to race the Dark Lord around the arena to get resources back from zombies.

   

   

In the final phase, he throws away all his useless weapons and pulls out the Demonic Crucible. Cue the Doom Eternal theme song remix. The Dark Lord would be capable of rapid combos, backflips behind the player, teleportation like Prowlers, and parrying all your weapons. Since the Dark Lord is invincible with the Demonic Crucible and you lost your own Crucible, the final phase would be one big game of keep away. You'd have to knock the Crucible out of his hands with either the Blood Punch or Hammer and then use his own Crucible against him 5 times to put him in the Stagger state and then beat the game. Maybe it's a bit gimmicky and too "green light", but I'd rather the final phase be a super-hard, skill-based green light fight instead of the entire fight being a green light fight that's slow and based entirely on RNG.

 

Thank you for reading my glorified The Ancient Gods 2 fanfiction.

[Rudolph]

I would have had him mirror every attack you make, e.g. if you shoot the BFG at him, he would retaliate with a Hell-themed BFG of his own.

 

I would have also given him as many health bars as you have weapons, so every time you deplete one, both of you lose the weapon you are currently holding. The final phase of the battle would have had the two of you without armor and nothing left but your fists, forcing the two of you to duke it out. Think of it as the final fight between Solid Snake and Liquid Snake in Metal Gear Solid, only done in Doom Eternal's style.

 

Oh, and the track playing through the whole fight would have been a remix of "Nobody Told Me About Id".

Edited March 24, 2021 by Rudolph

[Duke of Pathoris]

Honestly, before I knew we'd have the crucible hammer, I was hoping for a crucible sword fight. Slayer loses all his weapons but gains the sword and they fight it out. But realistically, the only change I would make now is stopping him from health regen when you shoot him without his eyes flashing green. I don't mind him regenerating health with his sword.

 

I don't like the idea of a symmetric fight, I don't see it working. 

[Taurus Daggerknight]

I was really hoping for a crucible duel too, before the hammer was revealed. 

 

Alternatively...really, just a Quake 3 type deathmatch would have been better than what we ended up with, especially since they made a huge deal about how the Dark Lord was -you- . Honestly, I'm... kind of surprised they went with "khorn Berserker" instead, especially when they likened it to  a pvp duel. 

 

All of that aside though, some other thoughts:

 

1) Have his design be in line with the rest of the bestiary. IE: Cyborg demon thing, with augments that have a heavy industrial vibe that are painfully fused into the flesh, brutally punching in and out with no care for sleekness or utility besides -war. The current suit just doesn't look like it belongs anywhere in Doom, period. 

 

2) Only let him regen health in melee, just as it is with the player. None of this "he got shot at the wrong time so he heals up" nonsense. 

 

3) LOTS of imps and maybe some backup mediums and occasional heavy. No former humans, ala the original Icon of Sin battle. 

 

4) More options for movement. TAG 1's final boss had issues, but one thing it was really great for was the environment you fought in; lots of spaces to dodge in and out of, lots of scope to mantle and meak-hook around, and portals. The TAG 2 arena doesn't even give you an air-meat hook node, which strikes me as a little odd... 

 

5) No gimmick-based stuff with the boss, beyond the ability to heal with his melee strike. The whole "only hit when he winks" thing worked fine on Marauders (arguably), but it really has no place in a final boss who is already buffed by multiple health pools and the ability to regen. 

[Vic Vos]

In a perfect world, I'd have it not only a 1-v-1 deathmatch, but an optional multiplayer match, where a player from a Friends list could join your game and you'd duke it out on equal terms. Like having a taste of Invasion mode, if that ever comes out.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Vic Vos

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Vic Vos said:

In a perfect world, I'd have it not only a 1-v-1 deathmatch, but an optional multiplayer match, where a player from a Friends list could join your game and you'd duke it out on equal terms. Like having a taste of Invasion mode, if that ever comes out.

Or that promised feature in Arkane Studios' Deathloop.

[Martin-CAI]

I would have liked a final phase where the Dark Lord transforms into something more demonic.

[Duke of Pathoris]

5 hours ago, Martin-CAI said:

I would have liked a final phase where the Dark Lord transforms into something more demonic.

I like him not looking demonic. He's the creator of the demons, not a demon. He is pure.

[crazydave]

I would set it up so that the Dark Lord never dies. Then change the story to him orchestrating all this just to find a worthy opponent to fight for eternity. The game never end, you just keep fighting. Making it work would be tricky, but I'm sure someone can figure it out.

[TheRedTide]

No regenerating health, I cannot stress this enough, NO REGENERATING HEALTH, NO LEECHING HEALTH FROM THE PLAYER.

 

2 phases. Moves much faster around the arena, dashes around often, and fires his shoulder laser canons at a much more frequent rate. I cannot stress this enough how atrocious was the idea to not only give him regenerative health but also to have him regenerate his health whenever we hit him outside of the green flashing eyes interval. Id simply doesn't know how to design boss fights anymore.

 

The boss fights on Doom 2016 were really good outside of the Mastermind being really easy, in Doom Eternal they're freaking shit, either stupidly boring like the Icon of Sin, or straight up the CPU cheating like the battle against the Dark Lords.

 

I just spenT one hour on this goddamned thing and I cannot stress how poorly implement the collision boxes on his sword are, I lost count of the times this motherf*cker sucked my life back to regenerate his despite me having a good couple of feet of clearance away from the edge if his blade. This is really a shame cause I was thoroughly enjoying TAG 2 right up to this boss fight. At this point I just want it to be over but I don't know if I'm gonna risk using a trainer because of the leveling system is tied to online services, so I don't wanna get my Bethesda account shrekt.

Edited April 2, 2021 by TheRedTide

[Z.Franz]

To me, 2 really different phases would have been perfect. Keep the first phase identical, in the second phase he loses his armor and recovers way less health and only whrn he attacks you. On the other hand, he would become way more proactive and "in your face" with his attacks. Also less overall max health for all phases.

[LeftHandGat]

Keep him the same, but make him King Marauder instead of the Dark Lord.

If they didn't have time to design the Dark Lord fight better and give him his due, they should have saved it for the next game.

It was a good fight for King Marauder, but a bad DARK LORD, Creator of the Demons.

They think that "we didn't have time" is a good defense.

Well if you didn't have time, you should have done something else, like, I don't know, King Marauder, which is basically what the fight is.

If they had saved Davoth for the next game they could have made him as cool as the Icon of Sin fight.

King Marauder fits the timeline of DLC creation much better and they would have also avoided the stupid "I'm God! No, you're not! I'M GOD. No, I'M GOD!" nonsense (at least for now anyways, they probably would have went there eventually).

[Doom-X-Machina]

I would've made it good...

[whatup876]

Not so sure about "fixing" it, but there's two things about him that could have been done differently:

 

* An actual anti-Doomguy, who has the basic arsenal, then evolves into gaining some alt fires, shoulder equipment launcher and even some self healing abilities. Maybe he could have his equivalent of possessed/fodder (like Sentinels or UAC soldiers you can't save) that he'd use to self heal. His armor could mimick the iconic Doom helmet and his face would be a bit more "familiar": lorewise, he'd be just a creatin by Hell meant to literally mimick the player.

 

* Satan: might as well be more of a vague concept, on who it could be: The Archdemons? IOS? Cyberdemon? Hell itself? even some random Imps? And the "boss" could be a weird looking level, not only having an aesthetic even "weirder than Inferno", but also havig some weird puzzles, even if not that complicated. But like an extension from the original IOS, where you can't even guess Satan's true size. It would seem even Doomguy is struggling but he's still the one meant for the job.

[Castle Dreadful]

Get him out of the suit and add some verticality to the damn arena.

[Yoshiatom]

My biggest problem with the Dark Lord fight is that it just feels like a Super Maruader, but by this point the player has fought a ton of Maruaders and probably has a decent idea of how to fight them well (especially since the Dark Lord isn't long after the double Maruader + Screachers fight in Immora) and the Dark Lord feels like being plopped back into the first Maruader eccounter in ARC Complex, just with some extra attacks. The problem with this is that most of the challenge from the first Maruarder eccounter comes from trying to figure out how even damage the thing and avoid having a ton of dogs thrown at you. The Dark Lord completly lacks this and as result instead of feeling like a nigh-impossible fight until you figure out the combat puzzle it's just a more tedious Maruader on a flat arena.

 

I do have a few ideas on how to make the fight better without radically overhaulling it, since a lot of the posts here are suggesting totally different final fights (although I can't blame them too much).

 

• Instead of making Dark Lord's attacks restore his health, give him an armor bar (that's smaller than his HP bar) alongside his HP and have him restore that. That way he'd still mirror the Slayer's abilites but getting hit by an attack doesn't flat-out remove the player's progress in the fight.
• Make it actually possible to damage the Dark Lord without faltering him. Even the Maruder could be damaged by Frag Grenades and well-timed detonated rockets, so make it possible to shoot him while his shield is down instead of it instantly being raised the moment a single thing hits him.
• Have his grenade launcher be a weak point that can be shot off, like Revenant's cannons. It would give the player something to do while waiting for the green eyes to come out and give the player a reason to use the Heavy Cannon or Ballista. (The Dark Lord fight is pretty bad when it comes to making use of the player's arsenal; I only ever needed the Shotgun, the Chaingun's turret mode and the Sentinel Hammer) The launchers could regenerate over time and could have more of them in later phases to give the player incentive to take them out.
• Replace the Spirit Wolves with spirit versions of weaker demons (such as Imps), not only would this make the fight feel less like a Maruader reskin, but you could also summon tougher demon spirits as the fight goes on, rather than the game just deciding "hey let's dump spirit versions of the Hell Knight, Tyrant AND Pain Elemental all at once!" abruptly during the final phase.
• Have the Dark Lord's shield break after 2 or so phases, and the Dark Lord attack much faster and aggressively afterwards. This way it doesn't make the whole fight waiting on green eyes but it makes the player want to use the Sentinel Hammer just to stun the Dark Lord for a bit and get some much-needed breathing room.
• Have the arena change after every HP bar, rather than just a couple. Even if the layout stays the same having more environments would give the fight a better sense of pogression, and the fact the Dark Lord fight takes place in it's own level means that it can't be too resource-intensive to add an extra environment or two.
• Like several other people have suggested, have the arena layout change after each phase. Even something as simple as a flat area with some damaging floors or a more cramped arena that makes use of a meathook point to get around the Dark Lord would go a long way in making the fight less repetitive. (I do think more complex arenas with some verticality would be good though)
• Make the fodder demons used for farming armor and ammo more interesting? IDK what to do for this one exactly but it felt very repetitive going in circles to get more armor when I needed it. (If the fight got more complex arenas you could put the fodder demons in more interesting and out-of-the-way spots)
• When the player does a glory kill attack on the Dark Lord that doesn't change the arena, have the Slayer go for the blood punch but get parried quickly by the Dark Lord instead of it just looking like a normal punch. Currently it just looks like you screwed up the glory kill and messed up a phase.
• Nerf Cursed Prowlers. This has nothing to do with the Dark Lord, but Cursed Prowlers are assholes and nerfing them would probably improve the Dark Lord somehow.

[I Drink Lava]

9 hours ago, Yoshiatom said:

Replace the Spirit Wolves with spirit versions of weaker demons (such as Imps), not only would this make the fight feel less like a Maruader reskin, but you could also summon tougher demon spirits as the fight goes on, rather than the game just deciding "hey let's dump spirit versions of the Hell Knight, Tyrant AND Pain Elemental all at once!" abruptly during the final phase.

oh i like this

 

It might even be possible to mod this in since the Marauder's spirit dog can be swapped out for anything else, including other Marauders.

[whatup876]

Also, if the DL had as many guns as Doomguy, they could be tied to phases, so he starts with a combat shottie and rifle, all the way until a BFG and Crucible.

So he gets a diverse arsenal without having the entire access to them, as some guns would be selected by phases.

He could also borrow some specific attacks from enemies as alt fires for some weapons.

He'd not only be on pair with Doomguy, he'd also be the most versatile boss fight.

 

unrelated to this thread btw:

Also, i remember how Doom 3's BFG let you actually charge a shot until it explodes on you.

I wonder if being able to charge a BFG-like shot could have worked as an alt fire for the Unmaker or BFG.

But instead of exploding on you, you're just "farming" damage at the cost of time and ammo.

In Samsara, the Chex Warrior's LAZ Device functionied like that.

Edited April 30, 2021 by whatup876

[Doomgamer172312]

On 4/29/2021 at 12:57 PM, Yoshiatom said:

 

• Nerf Cursed Prowlers. This has nothing to do with the Dark Lord, but Cursed Prowlers are assholes and nerfing them would probably improve the Dark Lord somehow.

huh, why?

I beat the dlc on Ultra Nightmare and i never had an issue with cursed Prowlers

 

i even got cursed by the final one in that tough arena and i still survived

Edited May 13, 2021 by Grim0514

[xdarkmasterx]

Well, it's easy to say that he should have been made with 60 phases and a shitload of unique attacks, and in ideal world he would have, but I believe the DLC was rushed (if all the recoloured monsters didn't give it away :p) so that was always a bit of a pipe dream.

 

So, instead of doing that, here's a few adjustment I would have made to the fight as it currently is:

 

1- When he uses melee attacks, he will chain them (vertical, horizontal and parryable) together, in a random order, but each sequence of attacks will contain one parryable attack. This should both make it more difficult to parry him (which I found a bit too easy) and make it more consistently possible to kill him quickly.

2- Make the summons (except wolves) invincible, maybe with a speed decrease (like a reverse totem) but they die on their own if you manage to stun the boss. Might sound a bit cruel, but the boss's attacks alone aren't really difficult to avoid at all, and the fact that you can kill them with the hammer encourages player to waste it on them (which is both easier and slower, so more boring) instead of being aggressive and attacking the boss head on. When I fought him, I didn't waste time attacking the monsters and just went to attack the boss itself, which IMO made the fight a lot more enjoyable than if I'd spent the hammer on his minions.

3- Remove the zombies and replace them with constantly spawning hammer pickups and ammo. Running in circles to glory kill some stupid little enemies in the final battle is really lame.

 

I know the boss might seem a bit ridiculous with these changes, but come on- I died like 6 times to the last phase of TAG1's final boss but beat Dark Lord first try, on Nightmare. He really isn't much of a problem compared to a good deal of other fights in this game.

Edited May 13, 2021 by xdarkmasterx

[Noiser]

 

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/doometernal/mods/419

[I Drink Lava]

Quote

An alternate version is available, which only includes the Dark Lord's reworked AI and not the extra demon spawns.

Thank god, some of those ideas are alright but turning the Dark Lord into a lazy horde boss is not the way to go.

[Noiser]

I think it's just some cacodemons and pinkies. The cacos can be used as grapple points, which improves the mobility on the arena I believe.
 

Spoiler

EDIT: I forgot the stone imps and drones, they only appear on the final waves. I think it's better than respawning zombies tho - and makes each wave a bit different from the other. Not bad considering all the limitations.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Noiser

[whatup876]

Might as well write a longer rant/shitty suggestions on the final boss and maybe a bit on Immora.

At least in my opinion, some things could be more interesting.

 

Spoiler

 

* He'd have his own version of Doomguy's weapons (pistol included) and how they're used/show up is usually organized by rounds but also distances and certain scenarios.

* Pistol, combat shotgun and rifle show up first while the last round actual has a BFG and chainsaw.

* Most of their primary fires are similar to Doomguy's, even if some weapons have feedback (like Ballista) or the hitscan is turned into fast projectiles/tracers representing shotgun shells and bullets.

* Melee weapons like Crucible and chainsaw could function differently, specially if you want to give the DL stylish melee attacks like spinning around with a chainsaw like a tornado just because. (or using the Crucible for slow but powerfull attacks, he could even slam it into the ground and create shockwaves of energy)

* Some alt fires are different, like Rocket Launcher's detonatable rockets splitting into mini rockets or chaingun's shield being plasma destructible.

* Maybe the grenades could explode into something resembling the Cybermanc's green slime, as if some attacks of his were borrowed from certain enemies.

* He could have an ammo capacity a bit smaller than Doomguy's, meaning he has to find ammo (pick ups or zombies), which could give the player opportunities to attack him.

* Instead of zombies, his fodder could have been UAC/Sentinel guards that you cannot save. (either imprisioned NPC's stuck in something, moving around like idiots or even soulspheres that he can break and absorb what's inside)

* This would meant a more complex level layout, of course.

 * His HUD/Health bar also displays his ammo and weapon in use, so you know if he has a chaingun, plasma rifle, rocket launcher etc without relying on his model.

* His HUD/Health bar also displays his own classic Doom face mugshot, like classic Doom just because he's you but evil. (almost similar but with red eyes but the typical functionallity is there)

 

* Visually, his face could have been retouched to resemble classic Doomguy a bit more like having brown hair or stylized proportions for bigger eyes and flat top of the head. (this technically applies to Doomguy as well, since even Quake Champions felt a bit closer but still)(also correct aspect ratio)

* Him having an armor similar to Doomguy's but demonic (red eyes coming out of visor, horns, boney blade, some flames, snake creature for shoulder launcher) could fill that "parody/mockery/insult etc" aspect of being a truly evil mirror image.

* I feel like the mech he used could have been rather a super heavy boss, like a returning Hell Guard type that happened to be more tech-like (they were fleshy mechs for worms) and aesthetically, it could have used some fleshy bits or weirdness to make it feel more supernatural or weird.

* I also thought the horns of his mech armor looked like a giant beetle.

 

* As far as lore could've gone, he could have been a mockery of Doomguy created by Hell as opposed to being the literal CEO of all things. (that apparently was even retconned in a stream, which may or may not have been done out of fan reaction)

* (Plus, the fact that Doomguy actually came after the DL, who somehow always had that look, sort of makes Doomguy special in a way that was never necessary and i think a stream even revealed it's actually a coincidence or something, god i forgot)

 

 

* Immora Soldiers could have used any other demonic/cultist armor that 2016 MP had, that made them more demonic and weird. (one was even used for those guards in the World Spear)

* Also, how the Reaper played like in 2016 was definitely not captured for the Immora guys.

 

* I guess it's also a matter of strenght as if the mech is trying to oversell the DL's strenght or it makes him look insecure, as if he's trying to look stronger than "some guy with guns". (it also lacks a certain level of "weirdness" so in some way, it feels like a mech armored Dark Lord might as well be a human from a tech heavy Satanic cult)

 

In general, the DL feels like there's this concept that just doesn't want to exist. An evil version of the protagonist but there's only 10% of it, so it's like they never pulled it off, whether it's because it'd seem predictable or because of development issues. (or "there can only ever be ONE Slayer but if anything, this thing undersells both Doomguy and Hell) The Marauder at least makes sense not being a "true anti-Doomguy" because he's just an enemy type that had a story background relating to Doomguy. Kinda like how classic zombiemen have similar armor and/or guns because they were UAC soldiers but they don't have more weapons or the iconic helmet.

* This is also because this is a series that wants to sell how powerfull the protagonist is, so that concept of a true "mirror match" isn't real.

 

* When it comes to what Satan in Doom could have been: Might as well be more of a vague concept, on who it could be: The Archdemons? Icon of Sin? Cyberdemon? Hell itself? Even some random Imps? And the "boss" could be a weird looking level, not only having an aesthetic even "weirder than Inferno", but also havig some weird puzzles, even if not that complicated. But like an extension from the original IOS, where you can't even guess Satan's true size. It would seem even Doomguy is struggling but he's still the one meant for the job.

* Immora also feels weird because it implies that Hell technically has a high tech human civilization, which seems weird for a place of all evil and suffering, but then you look at some bits of art direction or lore (UAC creating certain demons you fight for example) and it seems to fit for the wrong reasons. Because in the classic games, Hell did have tech but it felt more like demons were just messing aroud with it or making it seem evil (SKINTEK and giant skull switch). Even the Cultist base, despite still being tied to outside factions, still had an "evil" look to it that Immora didn't. Then again, a lot of this might be a result of trying to have a deeper lore to a series about a guy chainsawing demons from Hell.

* I also feel like some of the "weirdness" not being present can be an arguement for why horror works in Doom and can even complement Doomguy's strenght and power level: It empowers Hell and makes it more unpredictable and varied in some ways. It's more about some of the weirder assets in some levels and monster designs, as opposed to make things darker and make the player walk with a flash light.

 

 

I feel like i whined too much like this and rewrote it like some whiney nerd.

But i feel like there's some things some people could agree here.

We all know Eternal won't be the last game and as long as later games still feel fresh and fun (whether they're part of this direction or another), i feel like it could still have another shot or two as this "mirror Doomguy match" stuff.

[Prenihility]

Oof. Well this is a tough one. First off, I really hate to go off topic, because I think you specifically are asking about changing the FIGHT/gameplay mechanics. But the Dark Lord was corny as hell. Being a copy of the Doomguy (seriously, though.. come on?) was unexpected. So much so that I got blind-sided. At the end of TAG1 it was extremely underwhelming. Some people have also said it and I couldn't agree with that observation more; the DLCs felt overall cheap and rushed. What happened to Happy Time? You know? Doom has us hearing a scary demonic voice talking to Olivia Pierce. I always predicted that was the Dark Lord as soon as we heard about him.

 

Now for the boss fight. Something similar to Miraak from Skyrim. In the literal sense? No. Of course not. That's a completely different kind of game. That boss fight had to have been the single greatest boss from Skyrim. In terms of qualitative value it was completely above all else. You were going up against melee attacks of course. As well as some ranged attacks. Even dragon attacks if I recall correctly. Then you had Miraak shouting at you as well. It was just a thrill to hear him shouting and see him using the same shouts as you throughout as you were performing them. It really added to the intensity and I don't think any boss fight in that game compared. Then again, Skyrim is an RPG, technically all unique enemies are bosses? I don't know. You get the idea, though. Point is, matching the abilities of the Doom Slayer would be my starting point. It was a rehash of the 'waiting to shoot' tactic from the Marauder. And painfully so. For 5 stages. Fun fact; Dark Lord killed me because he ACTUALLY used a tactic that was overlooked by all players. Boring me to death. Overall Dark Lord should have been a humanoid Demon that was towering. Like a Tyrant perhaps. But not another Titan. Demon throughout; abilities, looks. Perhaps some lore that ties in some Argenta tech he might have used? A suit of his own, if that's what they really wanted. The Cyber Demon from the previous game still is my #1 boss. Intense. Boss abilities in conjunction with game design were excellent. It is compatible with both the tone as well as gameplay design. The Cyber Demon dashing to the side. Pulling out the Mobile Turret and unleashing a blistering hail of bullets. Hearing that slight hum as the barrels glow white hot. All while the Cyber Demon is shooting back at you. Then pulling out the BFG when you see that you're being targeted by the Cyber Demon's own large gun with the laser pointing at you as he raises his arm. Pure ADRENALINE.

 

Art direction was also a huge let-down for me. It started REEEEALLY getting into corn-ball territory. I don't think Doom Slayer getting onto a demon dragon helped, either. It was more of a "wtf?" moment than anything else. Dark Lord had very Hasbro type armor which relied too much on having a greatest visual impact than the Slayer's. Size was one of the biggest things here. The tastefulness of the art direction was flushed down the toilet with this one. Also, this ties in a little with the topic. Well, sort of. But I have to say that they really killed it with boss fights in Eternal. The Khan Maykr felt so final. The feeling of finality in the Urdak theme music alone was just excellent. She may have been comparatively easy now, but that's another issue altogether. I also thought the Icon of Sin was fan service more than ANYTHING. A totally unnecessary boss fight. And again - yes it tried to replicate the Doom II fight with the waves of enemies - but I think it was just more a taste of what was to come later. A tiring fight that wasn't necessary or that much fun for that matter.

[I Drink Lava]

7 hours ago, Prenihility said:

The Cyber Demon from the previous game still is my #1 boss. Intense. Boss abilities in conjunction with game design were excellent. It is compatible with both the tone as well as gameplay design. The Cyber Demon dashing to the side. Pulling out the Mobile Turret and unleashing a blistering hail of bullets. Hearing that slight hum as the barrels glow white hot. All while the Cyber Demon is shooting back at you. Then pulling out the BFG when you see that you're being targeted by the Cyber Demon's own large gun with the laser pointing at you as he raises his arm. Pure ADRENALINE.

 

[Prenihility]

2 hours ago, I Drink Lava said:

 

 

Heh. Funny. The Dark Stooge is more funny, though. And deadlier. He kills you with BOREDOM! DUN, DUN, DUN!

[MattFright]

2 hours ago, I Drink Lava said:

(video above)

 

You're probably joking, but exploits aside i do feel like the bosses in D2016 were the one thing where D2016 did gameplay better than Eternal. I don't think either game had particularly excellent bosses, but Eternal's felt pretty samey and unnecessarily strict in comparison.

 

I love the Hell Guards the most. I wish we had gotten something similar in Eternal.

[Prenihility]

Just now, MattFright said:

 

You're probably joking, but exploits aside i do feel like the bosses in D2016 were the one thing where D2016 did gameplay better than Eternal. I don't think either game had particularly excellent bosses, but Eternal's felt pretty samey and unnecessarily strict in comparison.

 

I love the Hell Guards the most. I wish we had gotten something similar in Eternal.

 

Yeah the Hell Guards were cool. I just thought their design wasn't demonic enough. Yeah, though. I don't see how exploits are relevant. My guess is it's just comedy. Again, still not nearly as funny as the Dark Cornball-err... Lord. Or his Fisher Price my first Mech Suit. At least if he informed Doom Slayer he was his daddy... :(

[whatup876]

The Icon of Sin i thought was good for what it was, familiar and different enough as far as it goes.

Him being a giant with limbs and his own attacks, along with some new tech is what people expected.

Even with the Maykr/Sentinel lore being a very recent addition to the series and maybe some people's expectations of him being weirder or having more limbs but still.

I'm also surprised a portion of him wasn't reused for Titans, if they were turned into a recurring boss but i guess giant tentacles fill that niche.

 

The Hell Guards were interesting because most of their attacks were new/unique from them.

I feel like a cool redesign idea would have been some metal/tech mechs with a Satanic theme still piloted by worms.

I remember some concept art showing them as armored minotaurs and now that concept was sort of given to the Gladiator.