Opinions on super-long levels in megawads?

[Dwimepon]

1 minute ago, Bauul said:

Expectation plays a huge part in it, I find. If you know you're going into a super long map, it feels far less burdensome than a map that just keeps going and going without you being ready for it.

 

It's one of the key differences between Map19 and Map32 in Eviternity I feel: Map32 you know is a big map right from the first five minutes because of how non-linear it is. Map19 feels like it could end at any minute, but instead goes on for 90 minutes+. 

 

Whenever I release maps for testing these days I always put an estimate for how long the map will take, as it can have a huge impact if a map out-stays its welcome.

 

I think that's why most people tend to prefer shorter maps: it's not because people want less gameplay, it's more that there's a better sense of progression and natural breaks are important. It's the same reason most books have chapters and most albums aren't just one long massive song.

 

Yeah, I think that's an excellent point! MAP19 feels so exhausting because it plays like a perfectly regular level, just stretched to infinity, and nothing clues you in on the actual length of it. If it /felt/ like a long level from the get-go it would have felt much less tedious.

 

When I first saw that 800+ enemy count, I honestly thought it was because they were setting up an enormous arena fight, a la MAP15 because, hey, what else could it be? Little did I know...

[Devalaous]

I love long levels, and detest short levels unless its a map01/map07. Ultra-long journey levels though, like ALT's Map 11 or Revilution's original Map29, should generally be spaced out, as episode enders or 'final gauntlets'. They drain you dry by the time your done, but you just feel so accomplished by the time its over, if its done right. And they better have a good midi too, given how long you'll be there. I still have ALT's Map 11 midi stuck in my head from time to time.

[deleted.]

.

Edited June 12, 2022 by a.a.i.

[Stupid Bunny]

1 hour ago, yakfak said:

I vibe with insanely long levels, whether they're casual, difficult, grindy, mazy or whatever. when a level hits you like a huge idea pad full of cool shit that's the best, really, especially when the textures vary from region to region. and if someone put out a set of 32 ginormous levels I wouldn't be the person responding to all that effort with "the pacing is wroooong" =P

 

yeah p much all of this

 

I've said it before bit I've always clicked with sprawling, slow-burn maps, since my earliest days of real Dooming discovering that maps like Central Processing in TNT and Odyssey of Noises in Plutonia were among my favorite IWAD maps.  I really like the feeling of being able to not just play a map but immerse myself in it, explore it, all the nooks and crannies and changes in style and atmosphere from one area to the next, as though the map is a whole world in itself.  I love the satisfaction of slowly winding down an enormous map, watching its hundreds of monsters gradually decline away to nothing and opening up new parts, bit by bit, and then finally the catharsis of beating such a map.  Hell, I don't even mind getting lost that much as long as the map has landmarks I can go by, doesn't overly rely on switch hunting and the thing I'm missing isn't some stupid shit like "shoot this 4tx-wide switch hidden on the back of a pillar to open an unmarked door across the map" type of thing.  It always feels good to figure out where I am and what I'm doing and keep pushing forward from there.

 

The experience definitely is more fun if there is a sense of progression: if I start out in brown underground tunnels shotgunning imps, I better not still be in brown underground tunnels shotgunning imps 45 minutes later.  And as @Dwimepon says, a big part of both the joy and navigational ease of long maps is having lots of interesting recognizable landmarks to navigate by, which bearings-getting aside also enhance the character and sense of place the map has.

 

And as to whether the map is one of a megawad...I've never had a problem with a few lörgebois out of nowhere, especially if the other maps are also on the medium-to-long side already.

[AnotherGrunt]

19 minutes ago, northivanastan said:

Basically nailed it. After about 30 of the 90 minutes it took me to beat Dehydration, I was already expecting every door to have an exit switch behind it, and being sorely disappointed each time.

 

Exactly. If you're interested in my opinion:

• I personally dislike Map32. It's huge and with no direction. I got lost in it. Almost the same is it for map19, but map19 is linear and in my opinion better structured. Combined with pretty good soundtrack, MAP19 and MAP15 are my favourites. On the contrary, I dislike MAP32.
• Even so, MAP19 is hard for orientation. Huge map should have some kind of signage system (like subway/metro or Black Mesa in Half-Life). Here you stand, here you should go and here is the exit. Simple and elegant.
• I don't like huge maps because they are burden for the CPU. MAP19 has huge BSP tree, which is hard to digest. It's like a slideshow even with no monsters on DOS machine. Huge map should have HUB system or something.

1. Is easier to navigate and traverse between hub/checkpoints.
2. Unnecessary parts can be unloaded from RAM. They don't have to figure in active BSP tree.
3. Unfortunately, as I learned, players mostly dislike hubs or hub system, so I don't know.

• MAP19 is good as curiosity, but I prefer shorter levels. Episode 1+2 in Eviternity – absolutely perfect. 

[Dwimepon]

 

I did it. It's over.

 

Christ.

[purist]

I prefer short levels. Often a long level is two or three better short levels in disguise. My thought is get your concept over then get out. Save any extraneous ideas for another map. Who knows, it may save you when mapper's block next strikes.

 

Sometimes the concept requires a long map to realise the whole idea and cutting it short would be to it's detriment, which is fine. Just remember that you will have to work much harder to keep the players attention after they have been playing the same level 20 minutes.

[Not Jabba]

Just wanted to say that m19 and m32 are two of my favorite Eviternity maps, since there aren't enough people in this thread who aren't hating on them.

Suggestion: maybe this thread could be steered more toward general theory and make it less about Dehydration and Anagnorisis? Creating a thread just to pile negative comments on a specific map or two would be pretty pointless.

[omx32x]

6 minutes ago, Not Jabba said:

Just wanted to say that m19 and m32 are two of my favorite Eviternity maps, since there aren't enough people in this thread who aren't hating on them.

Suggestion: maybe this thread could be steered more toward general theory and make it less about Dehydration and Anagnorisis? Creating a thread just to pile negative comments on a specific map or two would be pretty pointless.

i think thats more to say about how the fanbase dislikes long levels because anagnorisys and dehydration are some of the best examples of long levels you will find

also i think people show more hate towards them because almost everyone has played eviternity and can relate in some way or another

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

MAP19 from Eviternity is a contender for my favourite Doom map ever created funnily enough! I'm not sure what it is about Dehydraton that just hits all the right notes with me and makes me feel so immersed in its action. Something about fighting my way through the linear behemoth of a techbase trying to find the best way forward, I'm not sure what it is but I just find it to be such an exhilarating and rewarding playthrough. Might also help that it contains my favourite Jimmy midi ever too!

 

To go into my general opinion of lengthy levels, I don't find them to be inherently unenjoyable, moreso a long level can be more prone to having lulls of uninspired gameplay at points. They are harder to make consistently fun, but if a mapmaker manages to fill the map with good gameplay then I can be stuck in a level for however long it takes and I'll come out with a positive impression.

Edited March 29, 2021 by DisgruntledPorcupine

[Doom_Dude]

As much as I like short maps, I don't mind long ones either but I guess I lean towards preferring the shorter ones. Nowadays I would prefer to work on a short map and I have a couple sets of 5-10 minute maps in the works, so I have that going for me, which is nice. I've made some long damned maps that take 90 minutes or something and I know the way around the damned things... Probaly why I decided to rethink my main projects. There's always those maps of whatever length, where you end up lost, can't find the toilet key and say fuck this shite I'm going home.

[Deadwing]

I think that the big, adventurous and linear maps are the hardest to handle the players expectations regarding how long the journey will be, because for the player it feels like an endless tunnel where you don't feel you're reaching the climax. There's no indication of where the exit is and sometimes even when you pick the last key, somehow there's still a large portion of the map that keeps going and the lack of consistency becomes more apparent. But sometimes just the monster count + how small is the zoom in the automap already tells me that it's going to be *the journey*, 1 hour or maybe even 2, especially when you see the level has 1000+ enemies  and they keep coming in small bits lol

 

In these cases it's really hard to handle player's expectations. To help, maybe add a sense of scale giving the idea that this wil be a large journey, connecting large portions of the map with a large outdoor section? Handling the keys more efficiently also helps a lot, where the last one should be tied to the exit door or at least very close to it. Also, monster placement must give some sort of progression too, with the climax happening close to the end of the map, be it in difficulty, or quantity, or enemy type. In that sense, I believe the map must behave in a way similar to what a film does, where the end should justify what was presented in the beginning/middle, and the after-climax shouldn't stretch too much...

 

Some examples of maps that does this well, IMO:

 

Ancient Aliens - Leave Your Sol Behind,

Struggle - The Antaropolis,

BTSX1 - Tricyclic Looper

Lost Civilization 1 mostly? (although I still have to play most of it yet lol)

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Deadwing

[Bridgeburner56]

@Bauul raises a very good point about management of expectations. No one complains about Sunder having multiple 6 hour maps in a row (15, 16, 17) largely because it's Sunder. People know what to expect. This means that people who know that they wont enjoy such behemoths can either avoid them, or at least gird their loins in preparation for the epicness that is to come.
Map presentation plays a large part as well. If you spend the whole time moving through middling to small spaces, there's no sense of when the map might finish. Show the player an enormous spire, a horizon spanning vista or a sprawling megaplex and they're more likely to think "welp, better buckle in for a long ride".

And then there's the way maps fit into a larger project. If you have suddenly have a magnum opus map after 15 small maps it's going to take people by surprise and they are less likely to enjoy the experience. Have maps the steadily build in scope and their expectations will adjust with each map. Much like sudden difficulty spikes will be more likely to be perceived as 'bad', so to will sudden scope/size spikes. 

[MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai]

4 hours ago, printz said:

A long map means that if you play ironman/hardcore, the death will cost so much more of your time. But I guess that with a little discipline, you can define certain checkpoints and save there. 

 

Also, if it's vanilla-like, you'll hear the same music for a very long time (ports as simple as PrBoom+ offer music change triggers though).

 

It may also seem hard to navigate the automap of a huge level, but in practice you can add marks in it (using the 'm' key), so you can remember all the places you need to go to. In ports like Eternity which allow room over room, the automap is however MUCH less usable (we should find out how to improve it there)...

 

Personally I like huge levels because they're monumental.

Are 3d maps ala daggerfall dungeon maps feasible in doom port?

[Noiser]

I prefer when long maps are non-linear, that way I can approuch them in different ways. Dying is also less frustrating as I don't have to repeat the encounters on the same order. in addition to that, I associate long maps with big adventures, so my expectations are being able to explore them and have fun. Linear maps feels more like a constrained tourist ride so I find them a bit boring on a long run.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Noiser

[NuMetalManiak]

Long maps have gotta keep me engaged with interesting encounters and maybe even a few good puzzles. If combat is boring or such it won’t be good.

 

Surprising that Eternal Doom never cropped up yet. But I’ll bring it up because I can. The levels there are nice and engaging and work well. Themed nicely, got good cohesion, feels adventurous. All the good hallmarks to keep me going.

 

For those playing without saves, dying after a long ways through a long level, yeah, I can feel your frustration. Having to do everything over again. But practice and memorization will work out 

Edited March 29, 2021 by NuMetalManiak

[Deadwing]

I also enjoyed a lot some of the longer maps in Urania, especially the earlier ones.

[Endless]

I enjoy all types of levels, whether large or small, although I tend to have a preference for medium-sized maps (between 10 minutes in length). However, the most important factor I consider is the feeling of progression that the map is able to give. There are large maps that manage to create a fantastic build-up that equals the fun factor I have (MAP15: Cryonology (Eviternity) is one of my favorite large/medium-sized maps ever). On the other hand, if a map is too big but ends up shooting itself in the foot by creating incomprehensible mazes, poorly varied or unfair combat, then things start to drop in quality and my mind just says ''my God, when will this end?'' (MAP29: Citadel at the Edge of Eternity (Community Chest) is an example of a map that is too long for its own good).

 

In conclusion: Size doesn't matter, it only matters how you use it.

Spoiler

;)

 

[Azure_Horror]

9 hours ago, Dwimepon said:

I've been playing Eviternity and really enjoying it so far, but I reached MAP19 and man.... it's just way, WAYY too long for its own good. I feel like it would have been fantastic as an individual level, but as part of a whole it feels padded and stretched out to no end. Everything just starts to... blend in, if that makes sense.

 

I really wanted to know what people thought of MAP19, and generally of super long levels as part of megawads. Is there something I don't get, or...?

When I played Eviternity the first time and reached the darned second toxic floor section of that neverending map, I just gave up. I went idclev straight to map 20, my continuous playthrough with all the BFGs be damned!

 

In general, my opinion on longer maps is complicated. On one hand, I do love short maps, and often get frustrated with long maps. On the other hand, I played all the levels of Struggle: Anatresian Legacy to completion. And I always really liked Anagorosis (Eviternity map32), despite how exhausted I felt playing it. Moreover, after the second playthrough of Eviternity I quite like map19, funnily enough!

 

To me personally, it helps to take a break when doom maps begin feeling frustrating. This can happen independent of map length. For example, I was frustrated with every second map of Ancient Aliens. Yet later I have grown to appreciate the most of them. Curiously, I still don't like the maps 09 and 23 from Ancient Aliens, partly due to their long duration. So yeah... I guess long maps are often hit-or-miss for me.

 

2 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

Just wanted to say that m19 and m32 are two of my favorite Eviternity maps, since there aren't enough people in this thread who aren't hating on them.

Suggestion: maybe this thread could be steered more toward general theory and make it less about Dehydration and Anagnorisis? Creating a thread just to pile negative comments on a specific map or two would be pretty pointless.

I wasted spent a lot of my free time thinking about those two maps. I feel like negative feelings about Dehydration can be related not only to Dehydration itself, but also to its placement in the megawad as a whole. This goes beyond the fact that Anagnorisis is a secret map, while Dehydration is not.

There is also art-through-gameplay side to both Dehydration and Anagnorisis, which feels pretty diffirent in some ways, yet similar in the others.

But maybe it will be better to start a new thread for this discussion?

Edited March 29, 2021 by Azure_Horror
clarification

[valkiriforce]

I think they're perfectly fine - it really depends on the context. Eternal Doom works great since the goal of the project is known to be about very large Doom maps. You also have classics like Alien Vendetta building up to the bigger maps like Nemesis and Misri Halek, and they're memorable for closing out their respective episodes. Even if there's no grace in the progression from a smaller map to a gigantic one I'm still generally looking for what's fun and what feels good.

 

I think when a huge map gets too malicious with traps that have a low chance of survival, it can get tiresome, but that's more my thing. There's an audience for just about anything in Doom, and that's okay. I was used to playing maps from beginning to end, but over time I feel the community has adjusted my expectations enough to start saving more often when needed, specifically for maps that take a long time to complete. I still prefer playing from start to finish, but I can appreciate bigger and more difficult maps as a result of saving once in a while, so I guess you could say it's broadened my view on the matter.

 

Also, say what you will about Dehydration and Anagnorisis - I'm not fond of any map-bashing (I personally enjoyed both maps) - you have to appreciate the work of art that went into these two maps:

 

[dei_eldren]

Personally i would rather a large map is divided into more than one, first reason being i prefer to have a sense of progression.  Secondly, really long maps, like Dehydration, are exhausting... it's a strange effect, of course, because i can play Doom for a couple of hours easily, or a whole episode in one sitting (ok, let's say with few short breaks) if the levels are reasonable, but to use that same time on one map just feels like getting nowhere.  And i'd rather not take a break in the middle of a map, that's one thing. 

 

To be honest, i'm tempted to blame the mapper a little in the sense that he should be able to achieve his purpose with less... Dehydration is not a bad level, of course, but it would be even better shorter.  It's not like it would lose any of its substance if it were cut in half.  In general, i think the levels in Eviternity were in length equal to their substance, even if the levels are often quite a bit longer than what i usually play.  In particular i could point to MAP09 as a successful longer level that teeters on the brink of being too long but just avoids going off the deep end.  In MAP09 i really enjoyed the immersion, and that it really felt like the place it was meant to be, but MAP19...overdone.  For me, of course, but since so many people like it, such are needed, too.  But it's the only level in Eviternity i won't be playing again.

 

Part of the problem i think at least for me is staring at the screen without break for so long and losing some of my focus just because of that.

Edited March 29, 2021 by dei_eldren

[roadworx]

as people have said previously, i think that a big part of it just boils down to expectations. both maps are fantastic - as @valkiriforce put it, they're works of art - but while you know map32 is gonna be long cuz of all the things you hear about it, you don't expect map19 to be so long cuz...you just don't hear much about it. which is unfortunate, cuz it's a great map, but i think that's a big part of why it can feel like it goes on for too long

Edited March 29, 2021 by roadworx

[TheOrganGrinder]

I think one of Dehydration's shortcomings - which isn't necessarily true of all large or long maps - is that it's essentially a linear crawl along a loop that surrounds the central reservoir.  There isn't often much of a sense that you have any objective beyond forcing your way through whatever node or subregion of the map you're currently struggling with, and the map's two keys are both found within the nodes in which they're required.  I think the central reservoir itself contributes somewhat to a sense of your progress not being very substantial; you can delve deep into the bowels of the map, search and destroy, kill demons and flip switches and emerge eventually back into the open air only to see that you've advanced by a grand total of some twenty-seven feet.  Anagnorisis is larger and longer, but I think it does a better job of offering the player freedom to roam and to tackle its challenges in the order of their choice, and also to break up the environment into discrete, colour-coded nodes which can give the player a stronger sense of "mission accomplished, problem solved."  Once you're done with the red area, then you're done with it, and you can perceive clearly where the red area ends and the adjacent purple and green areas begin.

[Liberation]

We are not here to review 2 of Eviternity's maps, can we get back on topic please, or the thread will be closed.

[TheOrganGrinder]

11 hours ago, Dwimepon said:

I really wanted to know what people thought of MAP19,

 

...is specifically one of the topics posed by the OP, you don't get much more on-topic than that.

 

By way of other examples, at spot 99 on The 100 Most Memorable Maps is Community Chest 3 MAP12: Black Rain, which is mentioned there as codifying the concept of "magnum opus syndrome," broadly similar to what we're discussing here.  It's not the earliest example - I think Community Chest 2 MAP24: The Mucus Flow and Alien Vendetta MAP20: Misri Halek are both cast in that same mould - but I think Black Rain sticks in my mind because it's the sort of super-long level that doesn't have to be a super-long level; it's large enough, and features enough "checkpoints" beyond which you have no reason to return to the earlier portions of the map, that it could stand on its own as maybe a three-map WAD, if not for the fact that it's part of a community project.

 

I do feel that larger and lengthier maps in general benefit from a "big picture" approach and a willingness to make the player's objectives clear (achieving those objectives can be as thorny as you like) and their progress toward those objectives reasonably apparent.  Within a megawad you've got the added complication of the player's expectations of overall pacing, and how an especially lengthy level might fit into those expectations, subvert them, challenge them, or simply disappoint them: "the penultimate level of each episode tend to be the largest and longest, followed by a short fierce boss map;" "levels which include secret exits tend to be larger and longer than other maps to accommodate those secret exits;" "levels which appear later in an episode or project tend to be longer than those earlier in an episode or project;" none of this is absolute, but if map-to-map pacing is a tool that the project's organisers have chosen to employ, a particularly lengthy excursion at an unexpected point can definitely upset the overall experience even if that map is perfectly serviceable as a standalone level.

[Pirx]

long maps are fine for me if they have a clear sense of adventure and progression. so give your maps landmarks, color-coded sections, clearly visible results of completing a task. then i can spend an hour or two in one map without getting bored.

but when everything looks the same, perhaps beautiful, but sprawling and with little distinctive features, when it seems that the mapper kept adding rooms with no plan and no hint where to go next... it might end in idclev.

so please no hexen-like switch hunts and samey texturing. and mandatory secrets have fallen out of grace with mappers for a reason. running through miles of rooms littered with corpses and still no idea where to go is a waste of time.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

I feel like Bauul really hit the nail on the head, with regards to how a map can feel based on your mentality going in, and also how a map "presents itself" (that insight on the difference between Dehydration and Anagnorisis was great, and something I hadn't picked up on).

 

I'm not really sure where I come down on the subject of long maps in megawads (I certainly remember feeling like Dehydration started to overstay it's welcome, despite the map being full of awesomeness) -- that said, I've thought for a while now that par times being displayed on the "Enter Pic" for each map in a (mega)wad might not be such a bad idea. In the case of Eviternity at least, the longest par time before Dehydration was map15: Cryonology at 11 minutes, with the majority of the others being <5 minutes, and some as low as 1 minute and change. Loading into Dehydration for the first time and having the opportunity to see that 39 minute par time right off the bat, coupled with the 800+ monster count immediately afterwards, may have been enough for me to "shift gears" mentally.

Edited March 30, 2021 by RonnieJamesDiner

[ukiro]

8 hours ago, Liberation said:

We are not here to review 2 of Eviternity's maps 

 

Why not though? =)

 

If you listen to metal it's with "different ears" than jazz or hip hop; they're not trying to be the same thing, or to convey the same thing to the listener. Similarly, Doom levels come in an incredible range of genres, some more esoteric than others. I think Eviternity map19 is a good example of such an esoteric genre, or an acquired taste if you will.

 

I can enjoy the map on sort of a meta level, where I think more about the author's intent and mindset than about my own immersion. This is similar to "musician's music", where the enjoyment isn't just for the music itself, but the fascination with how someone could compose and perform it. Another analogy would be endurance sports, where you pursue almost hypnotic flow states and where persevering just a bit longer, just one more hill, just one more corner, is central to its allure.

 

[PeterMoro]

Did someone say super-long levels?  :p

I really like long and detailed wads. I find them more immersive. As long as they are engaging and there is plenty to do. I'd much rather play a 60min level of detailed architecture, challenging action and interesting exploration than a 15min simple and plain level.

[Doomkid]

22 hours ago, Dwimepon said:

I've been playing Eviternity and really enjoying it so far, but I reached MAP19 and man.... it's just way, WAYY too long for its own good. I feel like it would have been fantastic as an individual level, but as part of a whole it feels padded and stretched out to no end. Everything just starts to... blend in, if that makes sense.

This feeling has stopped me from completing so many good megawads in single player mode, but in cooperative, "sprawler maps" as I like to call them feel a lot more enjoyable. I also don't want to single out M19 of Eviternity, since I've felt this countless times before in other megawads too. But yeah, the feeling that everything is starting to just blur together is a good way to describe the sensation.

 

19 hours ago, The_SloVinator said:

Never liked a map that outstays its welcome, especially when switch hunts are present & traps repeat themselves over & over [..] when a map drags for far too long, it drains my fuel very fast to even play the megawad any further.

Well stated. I just like bite-sized coffee break wads in general though, so maybe that's why. Seeing lots of fans of super long maps in this thread and there's by no means anything wrong with that - they just don't really butter my muffin.

 

17 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Long levels are like long songs: there better be some sense of progression or it gets boring very quickly. 

This is a great way of putting it, but even then I start to feel the creeping sensation of Doom exhaustion. Music in Doom maps plays a big role for me, so a long 8-10 minute MIDI could really help with that, especially if it goes through a few distinct moods along the way.

 

If we think of Doom maps as being like food (because why not) then I guess I could put it this way: I prefer a megawad to be a smorgasbord made of 32 delicious little samplers, rather than 32 individual back-to-back trips to an all-you-can-eat buffet. Which is not to put down on the delicious buffet by any means, it's just a little too much under one roof for me personally.

 

I could get through longer megawads if I played them in shorter sessions with a bit of time in between each map - but by the time I do that, there's already another new badass wad knocking at the door, and I usually get struck with inspiration to work on yet another wad of my own, so a bunch of these badass levels that get made fly past me..

 

I'm probably an edge case though. If I wasn't a mapper/modder and just loved to play Doom, maybe I would be more into really long campaigns that require a few days to get all the way through and more investment of time.. With the shorter stuff, I usually find myself getting all the way through, so I get that dopamine hit of completion! I never (in SP mode) completed most of the well-regarded megawads.. Though with most of them, I've at least spent a few hours blasting through them in cooperative, which needless to say goes much faster, especially if you get 6-8 people in one server.