Would DE have been better without reactionary enemies?

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

But that doesn't mean he is not limited to singular combat scenario that gets old real fast if you don't enjoy the weapon switching wankery.

I mean fair enough. Though can't call having a specific role and pattern as bad design especially from someone who grew up with these type of enemy types in older games.

Edited April 4, 2021 by jazzmaster9

[Hunting4r2d2]

 

[ArchCrusader]

I don't know... in a game where the player is this fast and has so many resources, there has to be something that requires some sort of challenge that forces you to either slow down and/or split your attention. It's partly why we have stuff like the bullshit instant area of effect attacks many enemies like the Mancubus or (especially) the Blood Maykr have.

 

Not to mention the feeling when, in the middle of the chaos, you quickswitch to heavy rifle and blow the head off a Blood Maykr while keeping tabs on everything else moving. Few games can give such a rush, and it feels great when you reach that level.

 

Marauders are a mixed bag for me. I initially didn't think much of them, then I started loathing them... then they grew on me, but I internally groan when I see them. I can reliably take one down in 2-3 cycles, but the only reason that keeps you from blasting them (other than with niche methods) is that they have a random "lol 0 damage" shield they pull up in a nanosecond, something which irks me to no end. It's basically a game of "Mr. Marauder, can I please hit you? Thanks", which is both amusing and annoying.

Edited April 4, 2021 by ArchCrusader

[whatup876]

Considering the platforming and ways to kill enemies, they missed the opportunity to make a "stompable" enemy, like a platformer enemy in a Doom game.

I wrote something about a spiky meatball demon somewhere (no, not Cacodemon) that could even play a role in level design and combat also.

Edited April 4, 2021 by whatup876

[Caffeine Freak]

7 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

Every single video shows hitting him when he flashes green, the guy just does it really fast. Yeah, you can unload on him with different weapons than just shotgun and balista, but the combat scenario is always the same. I forces you to get to exact place and time and than you can kill him. There is no way to bait him in any way, there is no way to manipulate him, you just have to get in his face and unload on him when he lets you. You didn't proved anything.
There were ways to bait him with I think it was remote det rocket and ice bomb that forced him to turn away with shield up so you could shoot him. They were patched out because Hugo hates players not playing like he wants. This monster is just stupid and bad, you can't change my mind with arguments like these.

 

See, now it really seems like you're just moving the goalposts. You started off by saying there weren't any other viable methods besides SSG+Ballista, only to then say 'well, the combat scenario is always the same' when I showed you other methods. You don't have to like the Marauder, that's not my argument here. But when you make a claim like 'the only viable method is the SSG+Ballista', it just makes it seem like you never made an effort to research it or do some experimenting on your own.

 

And again, if you want to hurt him outside his eyes flash vulnerability window, use the faltering system. Remote Det rockets over his shoulder, Microwave Beam his dog or other nearby enemies till they explode and falter him with the shockwave, or most reliably, drop a grenade or two in his path. The best thing about these methods is they can be done from any range. Do any of these things to land a quick shot or Bloodpunch on him.

[NeoWorm]

15 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I mean fair enough. Though can't call having a specific role and pattern as bad design especially from someone who grew up with these type of enemy types in older games.

That doesn't mean it wasn't bad design even in the older games. The ammount of mods that limits HeXen Centaur shield duration or straigh up removes it prove that.

 

11 hours ago, ArchCrusader said:

I don't know... in a game where the player is this fast and has so many resources, there has to be something that requires some sort of challenge that forces you to either slow down and/or split your attention. It's partly why we have stuff like the bullshit instant area of effect attacks many enemies like the Mancubus or (especially) the Blood Maykr have.

That is another huge can of worms that Eternal has - you are literally unstoppable and can basically fly in the arenas. Only way to make enemy that can challenge you and stop you is to make the enemy bullshit unfair. They designed themselves into a corner and then they tried to fix it with invulnerable enemies.

They decided to make the game huge power fantasy and a challenge at the same time but were forced to make too many sacrifices to achieve that.

 

8 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

See, now it really seems like you're just moving the goalposts. You started off by saying there weren't any other viable methods besides SSG+Ballista, only to then say 'well, the combat scenario is always the same' when I showed you other methods. You don't have to like the Marauder, that's not my argument here. But when you make a claim like 'the only viable method is the SSG+Ballista', it just makes it seem like you never made an effort to research it or do some experimenting on your own.

 

And again, if you want to hurt him outside his eyes flash vulnerability window, use the faltering system. Remote Det rockets over his shoulder, Microwave Beam his dog or other nearby enemies till they explode and falter him with the shockwave, or most reliably, drop a grenade or two in his path. The best thing about these methods is they can be done from any range. Do any of these things to land a quick shot or Bloodpunch on him.

I think I said SSG+Ballista combo with some minor variations. Swapping the weapons is that minor variation to me. And yeah, I should said it better that the main problem is the scenario, I kinda assumed that with the theme of this thread it would be clear what my problem is.

And the microwave beam and remote det rocket strategies are not viable. Even the video above proves it. The enemy is designed to be killed in one way and one way only, everything else is discouraged or straigh up impossible.

Edited April 5, 2021 by NeoWorm

[NoXion]

11 hours ago, ArchCrusader said:

I don't know... in a game where the player is this fast and has so many resources, there has to be something that requires some sort of challenge that forces you to either slow down and/or split your attention. It's partly why we have stuff like the bullshit instant area of effect attacks many enemies like the Mancubus or (especially) the Blood Maykr have.

 

Not to mention the feeling when, in the middle of the chaos, you quickswitch to heavy rifle and blow the head off a Blood Maykr while keeping tabs on everything else moving. Few games can give such a rush, and it feels great when you reach that level.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about all the extra mechanics and enemy guff that Doom Eternal piles on top compared to most FPS games or even Doom 2016. I don't consider myself a very good Doom Eternal player, I usually stick to Hurt Me Plenty, yet I'm still able to melt a Mancubus in seconds if I have enough Blood Punches and ammunition, which aren't very hard to come by if there's fodder around. If I'm quick enough on the draw with the precision bolt, Blood Maykrs are trivial enemies. I'm not yet good enough to trivialise Marauders, but the unbridled joy I felt when I once managed to one-cycle the bastard in Immora keeps me interested in playing.

[jazzmaster9]

49 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

That doesn't mean it wasn't bad design even in the older games. The ammount of mods that limits HeXen Centaur shield duration or straigh up removes it prove that.

well the main difference is that the Marauder has more variety to his moves, compared to most Demons in Eternal, that makes the fight more interesting. the Centaur is straight up a Hell Knight with extra steps.

 

But *shrug* That's my to cents on that, I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the marauder's design but I don't really expect everyone to agree.

[Caffeine Freak]

@jazzmaster9Tbh, I don't know why anyone really has a problem with the Centaur. Yeah, he usually takes a little longer to kill, but there's ways to short-circuit the fight. Flechettes up close if you're the Cleric, Wraithverge if you're further away, Arc of Death at a distance if you're the Mage, Frost Shards/Flechettes at close range, Hammer of Retribution at a distance for the Fighter, Timon's Axe if you're up close. 

 

2 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

And the microwave beam and remote det rocket strategies are not viable. Even the video above proves it. The enemy is designed to be killed in one way and one way only, everything else is discouraged or straigh up impossible.

 

You literally watched a video of the player damaging the Marauder, from long range, using the faltering system in one of the ways I described. You've got a bizarre notion of what constitutes proof. Unless by 'viable', what you really mean is 'any strategy that allows me to kill him in 2 seconds or less, from any range that I want.' 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Caffeine Freak

[NeoWorm]

1 hour ago, Caffeine Freak said:

You literally watched a video of the player damaging the Marauder, from long range, using the faltering system in one of the ways I described. You've got a bizarre notion of what constitutes proof. Unless by 'viable', what you really mean is 'any strategy that allows me to kill him in 2 seconds or less, from any range that I want.' 

By viable I mean a way that gives me some kind of advantage over the other methods, maybe depending on situation I am in. But those don't, on the contrary. They take longer, put me in more danger and I still have to juggle the weapons like madman. It may be useful once in a full moon to finish the marauder, but it's setup is still more difficult than just killing him the intended way. And yeah, it is connected into how levels, arenas and all combat in Eternal is constructed. Most of the combat scenarios are the same and include monster that have one way to be killed effectively removing any variety from the encounter except for self inflicted challenges. That is not good design.

[Caffeine Freak]

Any method that allows you to inflict distance damage on an enemy that's especially deadly up close is a good method, in my book. Notice I didn't say you should take the time to *kill* the Marauder that way.

 

Think about it this way: sometimes it's not necessarily about killing an enemy right away, it may also be about slowing him down while you take a second to dispatch other enemies. A significant part of every Doom game has always been about prioritizing the correct targets in the correct order. Often that means terminating the most powerful enemies first---but not always. For instance, I'd consider it a sound strategy to pick off most or all of the Lost Souls around the Tower of Babel before focusing on the Cyberdemon, as few things can ruin your boss fight like a random Lost Soul causing your own rocket to blow up in your face. If there's a Mancubus in the room, you might do well to take him out first, unless there's a couple Shotgunners or a Chaingun guy right behind you. Similarly, a Marauder running toward you should usually take priority in a crowded room, but it might be easier to deal with him if you don't have a cluster of lower-tier enemies clawing at your back. Faltering him in one of the ways I described can not only score some quick damage from a distance, but it stops him dead in his tracks. That could allow you a quick second or two to either dispatch the smaller enemies close by before he gets to you, or alternately, let you retreat to a better location to take on the Marauder solo. Again, for as many differences as Eternal has with the Doom games before it, it's still about making quick, split second decisions that prioritize your threats in the correct order.

 

Not too sure what you mean by the last part, about most fights having monsters that can only be killed one way effectively---unless you're reffering to the DLCs.

[D4NUK1]

2 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

Not too sure what you mean by the last part, about most fights having monsters that can only be killed one way effectively---unless you're reffering to the DLCs.

And even then, the only expection would be the Cursed Prowler and the Spirit.

-Stone Imps are also weak to Minigun Shield, Unmayker, Super Shotgun, and Ballista Slices, AutoShotgun just make it more quick, and be more crowdcontroll shoots.

-Armed Baron Shield also detroys with plasma, but still it's taking damage of any weapons, but still like to destroy with a Ballista or a Rocket when i trink it's gonna go the maze.

-Riot Soldier can also be killed by Sticky Grenade of Shotgun, normals grenades, and even if you're full powered, try to meathook, jump behind and kill with any weapon.

-Blood Makers it's the same pmechanics as Maykers so just timing and position, but it's possible with any weapon.

-Tentacles just shoots until it's die.

 

[ArchCrusader]

6 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

That is another huge can of worms that Eternal has - you are literally unstoppable and can basically fly in the arenas. Only way to make enemy that can challenge you and stop you is to make the enemy bullshit unfair. They designed themselves into a corner and then they tried to fix it with invulnerable enemies.

They decided to make the game huge power fantasy and a challenge at the same time but were forced to make too many sacrifices to achieve that.

 

I may have made it sound like they are detrimental to my enjoyment of the game and, in a way, it's true... when I get hit. Notice that the game has next to no hitscan enemies (shield zombies, marauders and tyrants technically have hitscan attacks but at very limited range for the former two and with a delay/dodgeable lock for the latter) and any seeker missile can be disjointed with double jump or dash, so it's not like the game is necessarily being unfair.

 

I wouldn't call that "designed themselves into a corner" or "make too many sacrifices", the game just is what it is: you keep moving, trying not to get hit while at the same time hitting them. It's really just the classic fundamentals of FPSs (footwork and aim) taken to the extreme, which usually yields higher highs but also lower lows (so to speak).

[Rytrik]

16 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

And the microwave beam and remote det rocket strategies are not viable. Even the video above proves it. The enemy is designed to be killed in one way and one way only, everything else is discouraged or straigh up impossible.

 

 

[D4NUK1]

 

[Z.Franz]

I think that what NeoWorm is trying to say is, that the tutorial popup for the marauder explains that you need to attack him with a high damage weapon when he flashes green. Everything else is kinda unintentional.

 

I see his point, when I played the game one year ago, I never found out about the other ways to kill him.

[Caffeine Freak]

1 hour ago, Z.Franz said:

I think that what NeoWorm is trying to say is, that the tutorial popup for the marauder explains that you need to attack him with a high damage weapon when he flashes green. Everything else is kinda unintentional.

 

I see his point, when I played the game one year ago, I never found out about the other ways to kill him.

 

Sure, I get that. He was the first enemy that really pissed everyone off (myself included) in the first week of Eternal's release, so when the SSG+Ballista method was discovered and circulated, most players were happy with that and never bothered looking into it further.

 

But if they never wanted you to be able to falter him or hurt him outside of his eye flash window, I think that would have been patched out of the game at this point. The fact that it hasn't says they're fine with people killing him in other ways. It's not like it would be hard to make an enemy you can only kill in one way; that's how we got the stupid ass Cursed Prowler.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Caffeine Freak

[Yurax]

It would be nice to have Marauders only mod - normal levels, where in place of all encounters - Marauder! One or two at once, depends on difficulty. And fodder, of course. So one can try such funny approaches without constantly replay beginning of Taras Nabad.

[Frag Maniac]

I would have to agree with the majority here and say NO!

 

I haven't been surfing the Doom forums much lately, as since my final play through of the main campaign, I've been waiting until both DLCs are available and fully patched. I gotta say too, I really got tired of seeing all the Marauder/Gladiator hate threads on the official DE Bethesda forums. TONS of overblown reactions that were filled with misconceptions and naivety.

 

Regarding the DLC, as I said, haven't played either yet, but my main problem with them is both combined are only a mere half the length of a full installment. Many of us were anticipating a full 3rd installment instead to cap off what could have been a great trilogy. I myself was willing to wait another 4 years like we did between 2016 and DE to get such a title, very disappointed.

[NoXion]

Yeah, I think the two DLCs, the second one especially, were rushed. Personally I would have been happier to wait longer for a more polished product. Alas, despite my paying for the Year One Pass, it was not my call to make. Had it not been for the contractual obligations of the Year One pass, I'm sure that Id could have delivered better DLCs given more time.

I think if there is a next time, it should be either a Two Year Pass or just one story DLC.

Edited April 6, 2021 by NoXion

[Z.Franz]

2 hours ago, NoXion said:

Yeah, I think the two DLCs, the second one especially, were rushed. Personally I would have been happier to wait longer for a more polished product. Alas, despite my paying for the Year One Pass, it was not my call to make. Had it not been for the contractual obligations of the Year One pass, I'm sure that Id could have delivered better DLCs given more time.

I think if there is a next time, it should be either a Two Year Pass or just one story DLC.

Or better yet...a DLC announced when it's ready

[NoXion]

5 minutes ago, Z.Franz said:

Or better yet...a DLC announced when it's ready

To be fair I don't know what the parameters were for deciding how and when to develop the DLCs. We're not privy to whatever business decisions were involved in that. I just suggested a more relaxed version of what we got as an example. I'm sure the men and women at the coalface would prefer to work however long it takes to release the best possible game they could make, but unfortunately they are not the ones who get to decide that.

Edited April 6, 2021 by NoXion

[Rytrik]

39 minutes ago, Z.Franz said:

Or better yet...a DLC announced when it's ready

 

That's certainly something they can now do. They fulfilled their contractual agreements for the "2 DLCs, 1 Year" for Deluxe/Collector's Editions / 1 Year Pass, and don't have to pay out millions of dollars for returns. They earned themselves the resources & space to build DLC3 (and beyond) into something even better, without tons of pressure. 

[jazzmaster9]

59 minutes ago, Z.Franz said:

Or better yet...a DLC announced when it's ready

Unfortunately its the higher ups at Bethesda that decides those things. I know Hugo is an easy target for ridicule due to the rushed nature of the story. But They were pretty much working with what Bethesda gave them, same with Mick earlier.

Edited April 6, 2021 by jazzmaster9

[Z.Franz]

1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Unfortunately its the higher ups at Bethesda that decides those things. I know Hugo is an easy target for ridicule due to the rushed nature of the story. But They were pretty much working with what Bethesda gave them, same with Mick earlier.

Oh believe me, I know. I was actually referring to the higher ups, not Hugo or the other guys at Id software.

I was simply suggesting that everybody would be more relaxed if the DLCs were not teased in advance with "season passes" and whatnot.

Take Sekiro for example. The game got released complete and months later they released an update with the boss rush mechanic, outfits etc... It came out suddenly and everyone was pleasantly surprised. No legal shenenigans, no rush, no trouble :)

[Super Mighty G]

On 4/1/2021 at 9:01 PM, TheRedTide said:

As the Game Director Hugo was the main driving force behind making Eternal more difficult than Doom 2016 and falling for the meme that "harder is better" parroted by the Dark-souls crowd of sweaty tryhards. Go to the Doom group on Facebook and ask around, they'll corroborate my words.

Dark Souls is nowhere near as mechanically demanding as Doom Eternal. And the Dark Souls "game is hard" meme is just that. A meme. Dark Souls is not mechanically difficult. Stupid people don't used their common sense when they play these games, get punished for it and call it hard. Any sensible Dark Souls player will tell you this.

[Rytrik]

Hmm...

 

[Magnum Dongus]

I think a gimmicky enemy can be alright, because it sets it apart from the rest of the enemies. But when something has a gimmick, that usually should imply that it's the only one like itself. When it seems like half the enemies have some super specific way you have to beat them, it is no longer unique and just kind of frustrating. Plus Doom seems like it should me more about shooting big monsters until they're reduced to a pile of red sludge. Isn't that what the classic funny ha ha meme from the Cyberdemon's manual entry is all about?