RAY MOHAWK 2 - Development Thread

[Doomkid]

Just checking in for an update, @IggySqiggles, @NeedHealth, @MikeyScoots and @UberGewei. I’d love to see a beta of your maps or some screenshots!

[NeedHealth]

8 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Just checking in for an update, @IggySqiggles, @NeedHealth, @MikeyScoots and @UberGewei. I’d love to see a beta of your maps or some screenshots!

Not much to show currently. I'm playtesting and working on the last area.

Edited July 12, 2021 by NeedHealth

[MikeyScoots]

I got a temple out in the middle of a mountain going on atm. Not too much to show but progress being made boss

 

[Doomkid]

Thanks for letting me know where you’re at fellas, no pressure. Just checking in! Even after all maps are submitted I’m sure there will be cleanup and numerous tweaks to be made. Hoping we can get this out in roughly 6 weeks time.

[ignatiOS]

I could probably post the unfinished version of my map, It originally was completable but I'm planning to add a tad more stuff.

 

Edit: Some more stuff needs to be polished so heres some screenies instead :)

Spoiler

 

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by IggySqiggles

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

 

 

Just as these Imps have worked hard to get beach-ready, so have I mapped relentlessly trying to get my map done. I am posting the work-in-progress here now for some feedback (pretty please?) with regards to the ammo/health/monster balance and progression. File here for download.

A few rooms still need to be textured and I still have to get the map completely Chocolate Doom compatible, and fix some HOMs etc. So I don't need any feedback on that. Also the Blue Key Room fight will be changed. But over 95% of the map is the way it will be in the end and getting feedback on the balance and progression would be helpful at this stage.

Screenshots:

Spoiler

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Peccatum Mihzamiz
spelling

[Doomkid]

When Rudy2 was 70% complete, I recorded a play through of all the submitted maps. I’ll be doing that for Ray as well within the week!

 

EDIT: Opps it's been over a week and I didn't do this.. but I will dammit!

[NeedHealth]

@Doomkid my map should be exitable at least. please record an lmp. I need to finish work on the last area, so it is currently very bare.

 

nh_rowdyrudy2.7z

Edited July 17, 2021 by NeedHealth

[NeedHealth]

When I try to test my map in chocolate doom I get this error and i am really at my wits end now and do not know how to solve it.  This is the file path i used \chocolate-doom.exe -merge NHraymohawkV2.wad DOOM2.wad -deh  mohawk2h.deh

 

[Doomkid]

Try using "-file" rather than "-merge"

[NeedHealth]

Now it says that flat AQF023 is missing. Is it a mistake on my part to use this flat? -e1 the command line is used here waschocolate-doom.exe -file NHraymohawkV2.wad -file mohawk2h.wad  -deh mohawk2h.deh -WARP 01

Edited July 19, 2021 by NeedHealth

[Doomkid]

Hmm, just put that flat in my map and tried to boot it and it worked fine.. Something else must be going on to cause that crash

[NeedHealth]

Is there anyway to include extra flats? -e1 I mean I could remove it completely from my map but, well.... it is a beach texture i used quite a lot.

Edited July 19, 2021 by NeedHealth

[NeedHealth]

Well, i got it to boot but it just default to the frst map in the wad not the one i made, despite using the - warp MAP01 where MAP01 is the name (internal?) of the wad i made.

[NeedHealth]

e1 - i made this post because of a spelling mistake in the command line i did not see, disregard. Still got the same error that it defaults to the first level in the wad not the one I made.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by NeedHealth

[Doomkid]

Are you merging your map into the wad using slade or something like that? Most people just make an external map, then load it with "-file mohawk2j.wad mymap.wad -deh mohawk2j.deh"

[NeedHealth]

40 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Are you merging your map into the wad using slade or something like that? Most people just make an external map, then load it with "-file mohawk2j.wad mymap.wad -deh mohawk2j.deh"

No, not at all. I think it is the order of loading files i am struggling with and, what commands to use.

 

My map is ready for testing if anyone wants to have a go. Please record an lmp if you do. I used dbx visplane feture to count the the visplanes and max seems to be something like 125. I have currently no way of testing the map in vanila doom.

 

https://filebin.net/knvchs9siwlz999

2

Edited July 19, 2021 by NeedHealth

[UberGewei]

 

All your results look stunning!

Not on Doomworld that often, almost missed the chance to make a level for this!
 

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

Quick question: I've been mapping and playing through the maps submitted so far under the assumption that the splash damage from weapon slot 6 does in fact hurt the Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind. Is this correct? And how does that work with the flamethrower in slot 5? I guess splash damage is not a factor there right?

[Doomkid]

The Cell Cannon projectiles do hurt the Cyberdemon and Mastermind! It doesn't take too long to kill either of them using it. The flamethrower, despite being in slot 5, doesn't deal any splash damage - it's like a plasma rifle with a reduced range. (I thought about making it hurt the player up close, it makes sense after all.. but it was way too tedious)

[Peccatum Mihzamiz]

Hey there fine mappers! I am thinking of doing an informal testing playthrough just like Doomkid. Probably using DSDADoom as a source port. I'll stream the latest version of maps on my Twitch channel. I'll probably not have time to play through all of them so I'll stream on two days. I'll keep the VODs up as highlights for later viewing. 

Tuesday August 3rd, 7 PM UTC and Wednesday August 4th, 7 PM UTC. Stream over here. (beware: UTC is not the current time in the UK because of daylight savings time!)

If you have any updates and are able to upload them to this thread before Tuesday I'll be sure to play those. I have already played through a big chunk of the mapset and given feedback to some mappers in private, so I might not stream the maps in order. Perhaps I'll feel like playing some of the new submissions that I haven't seen first. Who knows, we'll see.

I also feel like doing a co-op testing playthrough in a few weeks time. If you haven't added co-op starts and/or ammo, health and monster balance to your map and feel like you might be open to still do that: please do so. You are very welcome to join that stream: please send me a DM if you would like to and I'll send the password. That stream is tentatively planned for:

Tuesday August 24th, 7 PM UTC.

I of course understand it if your map is not balanced for co-op. Let me know if you don't want me to play it and I'll try to remember that and skip it. If there are any questions or remarks in general feel free to send me a DM. 

[Doomkid]

Awesome! I received a slightly modified and finalized version of Gokuma's map recently, and NeedHealth also submitted a map since last build, so I'll post an updated version in the next day or two.

 

@NeedHealth would you mind reposting your map? (The url died since last week)

[NeedHealth]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:47 AM, Doomkid said:

Awesome! I received a slightly modified and finalized version of Gokuma's map recently, and NeedHealth also submitted a map since last build, so I'll post an updated version in the next day or two.

 

@NeedHealth would you mind reposting your map? (The url died since last week)

Here you go -e1 failure to zip, see below.

Edited August 2, 2021 by NeedHealth

[UberGewei]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j2zgy5hnx7bbofj/mohawk2_map07a2.zip?dl=1

 

Here's a first version of my entry.
I personally feel like it's too easy and there's a bit too much ammo/items around.
But please let me know your thoughts :P

Edit: second version, few minor improvements & more monsters added.

Edited August 2, 2021 by UberGewei

[Moustachio]

@NeedHealth When I unzip NHraymohawkV2.7z, all I get is a mohawk2j.deh file.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

Can confirm it, there's only a dehacked in the 7z

[NeedHealth]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:47 AM, Doomkid said:

Awesome! I received a slightly modified and finalized version of Gokuma's map recently, and NeedHealth also submitted a map since last build, so I'll post an updated version in the next day or two.

 

@NeedHealth would you mind reposting your map? (The url died since last week)

 

42 minutes ago, Moustachio said:

@NeedHealth When I unzip NHraymohawkV2.7z, all I get is a mohawk2j.deh file.

 

40 minutes ago, Lol 6 said:

Can confirm it, there's only a dehacked in the 7z

 

Take two, I even put the other mohawk wad in the 7z just in case because I can't remember if it was necessary or not.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f32cl56z9vhj2hu/NHraymohawkV2.7z?dl=0

[Moustachio]

Here's a review of @UberGewei's Map 07. I have a lot to say about this map, so we're gonna split it up into three sections: what I didn't like, what I did like, and how I would address the stuff I didn't like.

 

Let's get what I didn't like out of the way:

 

Spoiler

The combat in this map is unfortunately quite boring despite the lavish settings these fights take place in. That's because there's hardly any encounters throughout the map that put a real strain on Ray's incredibly overpowered weapons set. Many of the fights on display here are against incidental fodder -- enemies that are just placed between areas or perched on ledges far away from the action. This type of enemy placement is actually necessary in order to fill the void during the more explorative sections of Doom maps, but without any high pressure situations, the map becomes almost purely exploration. Being able to quickly mow down enemies with the blaster + the abundant ammo quickly becomes monotonous, and the whole map starts to blur together.

 

Using the red key area as an example: The big open ruins that house the key are a prime location for a huge horde to come in and swarm the player, but instead all we get are a few hell knights and revenants. It was a bit underwhelming.

 

On the flip side, there are a couple of moments where, due to Doom's infinitely tall monsters, enemies will block your jump down into the lower area. The cave right after the blue key and the cave beyond the blue key door both have this issue. 

 

The ammo balance in this map doesn't help much either. There's way too much ammo in this map for it to be of any challenge. I had full ammo from about the halfway point onto the end of the map (not including bullets since I exclusively used the blaster to cheese most of the fights in this map). You generally want the player to have about a third of their total ammo supply left by the end of the map. There's also ammo for the flamethrower present, a weapon which isn't in the level, nor is it allowed to be in the level.

 

By not limiting the ammo enough, it becomes too easy to stick to a preferred weapon, and all the fights start to feel the same. There's no incentive for the player to think outside the box when it comes to their approach to the level.

 

On the less pressing side of things, some of the areas are rather large without a whole lot going on in them. They look great visually, but it does take a while to get to where you need to go at times. If the player falls off the ship, they have to climb back up through the cave, through the yellow door, and re-do the small platforming obstacle. Additionally, some of the progression can be a bit confusing at times. The blue key door is a bit too far away to see clearly from where you emerge with the key, and the switch to open it is tucked away behind the building.

 

Finally, the map doesn't look great in vanilla unfortunately. Immediately upon opening the map in Chocolate Doom, I'm faced with numerous huge HOMs that frankly ruin the entire experience of the map. This will be pretty hard to remedy, since the only way to fix this is to get rid of visible sidedefs, but it is possible. I had to to a lot of creative sidedef removal for my Rudy 2 mapping process, and I can tell you that it's frustrating if you're not willing to compromise on detail. But it's possible.

 

Now, with all that being said, many of these issues can be simply addressed with a map update, and there's quite a bit to enjoy about the map as well. I'll go over how to address these issues and more later on down below, but first, here's what I liked about the map:

 

Spoiler

The visual fidelity is on point for vanilla. I took this for a spin in Crispy Doom, and this map looks gorgeous, especially the section with the ship. There is at least one texture mishap that I can think of -- the skull face on the mast of the ship tiles vertically which I think looks a little awkward -- but other than that, everything looks satisfactory for vanilla, aside from the aforementioned HOM issues.

 

The setting itself is cool and the ship is a unique and memorable touch. The ancient temple appropriately feels like it extends for ages underground with its winding tunnels. The environmental details are also on point in this map, adding a lot of visual charm in one of the more exploration heavy maps of the set.

 

The double cyberdemon room stands out for me. Although it is easy to cheese the remaining cyberdemon by standing in a certain spot (as seen in the demos below), when there are two of them, it becomes a challenging fight! The imp wall that opens up at the soulsphere switch is also really fun, and I'd love more hordes of fodder to use the cell cannon on.

 

The MIDI used is also a lot of fun -- it did start to get a little repetitive on my third playthrough however.

 

Now the question is, how can this level be tweaked in order to highlight its best aspects and tone down some of its weaknesses? I have a few thoughts on how to address some of my issues with the map:
 

Spoiler

The current enemy and ammo placement is quite easy, making it a prime candidate to base your Easy difficulty setting on. While editing, you can just add enemies that appear exclusively on Hurt Me Plenty, then on Ultra-Violence, building up your skill settings as you go. Try to add enough enemies and encounters to really give yourself a challenge when testing HMP and UV. Hopefully, this will also give you ideas for new setpieces to add in.

 

Add some encounters at key moments throughout the map, including at the red and yellow key sites and at the very end on the ship. I was disappointed we didn't get much of a fight up there! Block off the exit switch with some kind of puzzle that you can't complete until a challenging final fight is done. Or, alternatively, give the player one last scare before the switch opens up. This can be said for the red and yellow key rooms as well. You could have the switch to lower the red key actually open some caves where enemies pour out. Once the enemies are dead, then the player can find the real switch to lower the red key in a cave. Larger rooms can also use some big horde fights to pressure the player and keep navigation interesting as you cross them. These are just a few examples of setpieces that you can add to enrich the fights and layout already present.

 

You could also try significantly lowering the amount of bullet ammo. I was able to rely on the blaster alone to get me through most situations, running out of bullets just one throughout each of my playthroughs. If there were less bullets in supply, I would have been more encouraged to switch my weapons and combat approach more frequently, and I would have had more fun.

 

All of the flamethrower ammo can easily be deleted by using Doom Builder's search feature. Set it to Thing Type and search for the flamethrower ammo to quickly highlight and get rid of all of them. You can also change them to armor bonuses or something similar if you'd like.

 

The HOM stuff, as I mentioned before, will take some more diligence to fix, as it requires an understanding of how sidedefs are rendered, but it can possibly still be done.

 

Finally, some of the map's progression is a little cryptic, such as finding the blue key door switch. I would put blue key signage that's clearly visible from where you emerge with the blue key, that way the player doesn't get lost for a bit looking for the door or the switch.

 

I would say this level is much too easy for the Map 07 slot (at least on Ultra-Violence). It certainly has potential and can easily become a standout thanks to its environment and layout, but as it stands, the far-too-forgiving combat and ammo balance hold the map back. Fortunately, much of the issues I have with the map can be still fixed with a revision.

 

Unfortunately, the worst aspect of the map is that the HOMs render it practically unplayable in vanilla. It's just way too much of a visual massacre, which is such a shame because this map looks so great! I hope this can be fixed, because otherwise this might have to be a limit-removing bonus map (a la Rudy 2).

 

@UberGewei, you should definitely keep at it. You've got mad potential for Doom mapping. This layout is epic, it just needs some epic fights to go along with it (which I can tell you're more than capable of crafting).

 

Here are some demos I recorded that can hopefully help illustrate a lot of my points. In the first one, I gave up because I got lost and couldn't find the Blue Door switch. The second and third are UV-Max playthroughs. I recorded each of them in DSDA Doom on complevel 2.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Moustachio

[Doomkid]

@NeedHealth and @UberGewei, thank you for the submissions, both of these maps are really high-quality from an architecture and texturing perspective, I'm really happy with them overall.

 

---

 

@NH - Shortly into your map, I found myself on a lift that was making a lowering sound, but not actually lowering - it has a caution texture on top, and when noclipping I saw an archvile was waiting in a small alcove. Are you really sure you can't get this to launch in Chocolate Doom? It will be so useful for you with testing. It's how I'm doing all of my testing to find these issues. This map looks damn good overall, and what bit I could play was really fun, it's just broken in its current state.

 

The thing is, I actually looked at the issue in Doom Builder, and for the life of me I can't figure out why the damn thing won't work. You've set it as "lower to lowest floor", and the sector is clearly touching a lower floor, but it refuses to budge... Hopefully someone can figure out what's going on with that?

 

---

 

@Uber - Your map is gorgeous, but as Moustachio said, a bit of a pushover in terms of difficulty. With the exception of Mancs (since they're so damn fat), you could pretty much duplicate every single enemy and end up with a nice amount of challenge. So for instance, anywhere that has an imp, put one more imp right next to it - same with HKs, Archies, etc. I still don't think your map will be a ball-buster by any means, but it'll at least have a bit meatier of a feeling. I also just want to echo his points about removing or replacing the flamethrower ammo.

 

A more unfortunate aspect is that this map is way too detailed for vanilla in its current state. Here's a screenshot of the map with visplane explorer running. All the bright-reddish areas will crash the game if the player enters them:

 

 

Unfortunately it's all over the place. I do think this could be made a vanilla compatible map with some clever removal and merging of sectors though - for exmaple many of the cliff and staircase areas could condense what are currently 3 steps into just 2 or 1 by using 24-unit high steps rather than increments of 8. Other similar simplifying of architecture and removing of vertices and stuff would also go towards making this a map that can run in vanilla Doom.

 

Would you be willing to simplify the architecture? I could absolutely help with that process. If you don't want the map to be tampered with in such a deep way, I of course also understand and it could be included as a bonus map as Moustachio suggests. I don't think it would actually be that hard to make it vanilla, though. Just let me know what you think!

[Doomkid]

Alrighty, after almost a month, it's time for a new build!

 

https://doomshack.org/uploads/mohawk2k.zip

 

A lot of progress, but still a lot of work to be done.

 

---

 

One important thing I'd like to address for some submissions is intensifying the differences between each difficulty. What I mean by that is, some maps only very lightly provide difficulty settings. A running theme throughout all of my CPs and solo-projects over the years is accessibility for lesser-skilled players, and I'm hoping to keep that in tact here as well (while keeping UV as a ball-buster difficulty).

 

Frankly, some of these maps are at the absolute upper ceiling of my skill level on UV. Which is to say - I can beat them all, but in some cases, just barely.. and that's totally fine for UV! However, in HMP, the map should be pretty easy - somewhere between Doom 2 and TNT in terms of overall "hardness" - and in HNTR/Baby mode, it should be a total cakewalk for a pretty skilled Doomer.

 

While the vast majority of submissions have a degree of difference between the skill levels already, the main ones I think really need further "easifying" on the non-UV settings are those by @Moustachio, @RonnieJamesDiner, @rd. and @Aurelius. Excellent maps, but if you could make HMP cater to us Doom Posers, that would be swell, because your maps slap me around and call me names I'm not fond of on UV.

 

Some maps that could use just a little more "easing up" on HMP and HNTR are those by @MidnightMage, @Cheesewheel, @Egg Boy and @Peccatum Mihzamiz. I appreciate that these maps already do have some differences in difficulty, but I'm just being a tad anal about making sure HMP and below are totally, unquestionably accessible for most Doomers. Just plop a few more good items around the place and delete some enemies for those easier skills, you don't need to overthink it or spend too much time on it!

 

---

 

On the more technical side of things, I still need to fix some texture oddities that were inherited from Freedoom.. things like the TSCREEN textures and such not tiling properly since they're a size that Doom isn't compatible with in vanilla, not to mention some textures causing tutti-frutti for similar reasons. These will all get fixed for sure, I haven't forgotten, but as of now there's still some weird shit in there.

 

Of course, once we get submissions from @MikeyScoots and @IggySqiggles (whenever they're ready) we'll have a full 20 map roster filled up! Wether or not UberGewei wants to re-do his map for vanilla, there also may be a slot open for you @nue, and even if not, I'll be happy to include a map you make as a secret and/or bonus map, if you do decide to make one. Same offer goes out for you, @Bobby “lolmcswagger”!

 

---

 

Welp, whatever thoughts and feedback yopu have on the current build, PLEASE DO share them here. Most importantly, have fun with the new build!