why is plutonia's difficulty so overstated?

[GraphicBleeder]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:37 PM, roadworx said:

whenever plutonia is brought up, i always notice that a lot of people seem to regard it as some sort of brutally difficult, unfair levelset that's for masochists only. but...it really isn't? i just recently played through it on uv, and while it's absolutely not easy, it's honestly not as bad as it's made out to be other than a few specific areas. i was actually a bit underwhelmed - i'd heard about how it's hard af, and while that may have been the case 25 years ago, it's really not that bad anymore. and i really don't see myself as that great of a player, so it's not like i'm just really good at the game or anything

 

so...why does its seemingly mythical status as being ridiculously hard persist to today?

Because Plutonia is the hardest out of the 4 IWADs.

But the stock IWADS aren't that hard, it's just that people like Gman, Civvie, and other online figures talk about it as if it's hell incarnate.

 

Tbh most modern WADs I download off Doomworld are harder then Plutonia.

[D4NUK1]

Just now, GraphicBleeder said:

But the stock IWADS aren't that hard, it's just that people like Gman, Civvie, and other online figures talk about it as if it's hell incarnate.

 

 

 Plutonia was hell incarnate when I tried to play when I was a kid thou

[Dark Pulse]

Simply put: Expectations for what's hard have changed, and the Doom community has advanced.

 

Something a lot of people seem to forget is that a lot of the mega-harder maps and whatnot that we have today are simply not possible to run under the Vanilla engine - a lot of them require Boom or something even more advanced, for example.

 

Basically, it should be looked at by the standards of what the community had at the time. Plutonia came out on June 17, 1996, but the original release date was to be December 1995 for Evilution. (Plutonia was completed a month later.)

 

So what about other hard WADs? Well, Hell Revealed came out in 1997. Memento Mori II came out a month later in July of 1996. Even stuff like Scythe was still the better part of a decade away, and Alien Vendetta wouldn't see the light of day for half a decade.

 

Simply put, it's got the reputation for being a really hard WAD, because it was one of the first really hard WADs. Even as mapping has gotten more complex and more advanced engines have allowed us to bust limits that the OG mappers would have drooled to break, simply put every mega-hard WAD has taken at least some scratch of inspiration from Plutonia.

 

It may no longer be the hardest, especially if you're used to playing the more modern WADs that have followed in its footsteps, but make no mistake: By the standards of the time, and in an era where a lot of people still played Doom using only a keyboard, Plutonia was fucking tough. Just because it's not so bad 25 years later after a bunch of other, harder, more advanced stuff has come out does not diminish its reputation, and it should rightfully be considered one of the harder WADs.

 

It's certainly still good for people to practice on and work up to more advanced stuff if that's how they want to play.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dark Pulse

[Juza]

I think it mostly comes from newcomers that attempt to play it, and since they can't beat it, claim it to be bad. I'm guilty of that.

[Wagi]

Do bear in mind that there are more Cyberdemons and Archviles in certain levels of Plutonia than there are in all Doom2 maps *combined*. It cannot be overstated how massive of a jump in difficulty there is between the other IWADS and Plutonia.

[Jiggahertz]

7 hours ago, GraphicBleeder said:

Because Plutonia is the hardest out of the 4 IWADs.

But the stock IWADS aren't that hard, it's just that people like Gman, Civvie, and other online figures talk about it as if it's hell incarnate.

 

Tbh most modern WADs I download off Doomworld are harder then Plutonia.

^ This

 

When Gman ranked Final Doom as the worst commercial Doom release and was moaning super hard about how difficult Plutonia was, as if it was completely unplayable to him or something, I was like "lol wtf is this a joke????"

 

I've only seen that video 1 time and it was a really long time ago so I don't remember what he even said, but I'm gonna go back and watch it rn just to have a laugh

Edited May 4, 2021 by TheUnstableNutcase

[CasualScrub]

I mean, it is pretty difficult compared to the other official releases. The number of chaingunners, Archviles, and Revs on some of the maps can be pretty overwhelming, especially if you're not someone who is well accustomed to more difficult community WADs.

[Pirx]

On 5/2/2021 at 3:28 AM, VoanHead said:

 I can understand why people think it's "brutally hard", if you don't anticipate the traps and have some sort of foreknowledge at least, you might get creamed. At the very least, I feel like Plutonia takes you out of comfort zone and forces you to be more bold.

 

 

yeah, it has these "fuck you" traps with chaingunners in your face and bonehead gangbangs where you have to know what's coming, and when you know it, it's not that hard anymore. of course it shocked people back then, and this stuck.

[Doomdude89]

Plutonia has bad ammunition placement on many of its maps (numerous times forced to take some when you dont need it at all) weird understanding of liquid usage on floors, (Sometimes the mud hurts sometimes it doesent. Sometimes the water hurts sometimes it doesent) Clearly an oversight but annoying in general.

[whybmonotacrab]

14 hours ago, GraphicBleeder said:

But the stock IWADS aren't that hard, it's just that people like Gman, Civvie, and other online figures talk about it as if it's hell incarnate.

Because they're gamers. Not Doomers. To someone who doesn't play Doom every day, Plutonia is difficult. Those guys are better than a most at video games because they play them every day as part of their job and they find Plutonia difficult. To someone who doesn't play a lot of video games it's insanely difficult. I don't understand how it's this difficult to process.

 

 It was hilariously disheartening seeing this right above a thread called [Embarrassing thread] Wads with a difficulty between Doom II and Plutonia where people were bending over backwards to tell OP it wasn't embarrassing to want to play easier megawads.

Edited May 4, 2021 by whybmonotacrab

[Kyka]

Just a slightly off topic question? People are saying that Plutonia is the hardest iwad. Is Sigil considered an iwad? Because I would say that Sigil is harder than Plutonia, which, if true, would make Sigil the hardest iwad.

 

That said, Plutonia was certainly the hardest serious wad that anyone had seen up to that point in time.

[Devalaous]

1 minute ago, bLOCKbOYgAMES said:

Just a slightly off topic question? People are saying that Plutonia is the hardest iwad. Is Sigil considered an iwad? Because I would say that Sigil is harder than Plutonia, which, if true, would make Sigil the hardest iwad.

 

That said, Plutonia was certainly the hardest serious wad that anyone had seen up to that point in time.

 

I believe its an IWAD in the Unity port, but I think all official add-ons are IWADs there iirc. They definitely have been since BTSX. Even Syringe is an IWAD! Otherwise, no, its not an IWAD.

 

Anyway, back when the Megawad club did their playthrough of Plutonia, I played through it again with them sorta, probably for the last time, unless I get my PS3 running again (Still have to get the trophy for beating it on there) and it was not as hard as I thought it would be. Still plenty of bullshit levels, especially near the start, but the whole thing was surprisingly doable. Maybe ive just gotten used to it, or maybe ive grown in skill. Not looking forward to Plutonia 2 or PRCP though..

[Dark Pulse]

22 minutes ago, bLOCKbOYgAMES said:

Just a slightly off topic question? People are saying that Plutonia is the hardest iwad. Is Sigil considered an iwad? Because I would say that Sigil is harder than Plutonia, which, if true, would make Sigil the hardest iwad.

SIGIL is not an IWAD, as it requires doom.wad to play. It's a standard PWAD.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Dark Pulse

[Kyka]

@Devalaous @Dark Pulse

 

Thank you both for the clarifications. :)

[VoanHead]

10 hours ago, Doomdude89 said:

Plutonia has bad ammunition placement on many of its maps (numerous times forced to take some when you dont need it at all) weird understanding of liquid usage on floors, (Sometimes the mud hurts sometimes it doesent. Sometimes the water hurts sometimes it doesent) Clearly an oversight but annoying in general.

Say what you want about Plutonia, but I also realized this upon my recent replay on the first 8 maps: it's very generous w/ rockets, even on Pistol-start.

[Dark Pulse]

28 minutes ago, VoanHead said:

Say what you want about Plutonia, but I also realized this upon my recent replay on the first 8 maps: it's very generous w/ rockets, even on Pistol-start.

You'll need them, and it knows it.

[head_cannon]

The generosity of Plutonia's item placement is one of the reasons I consider the megawad so fun - the action scenes ask a lot of the player and seemed quite daunting to me, but the way that the maps would frequently give you full ammo & armor really helped to take the edge off. I was more willing to meet it halfway and engage with it because I got the impression that the designers were operating in good faith; these setups felt like the mapset was saying "You have everything you need, now go to it."

[BadJuju]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:37 PM, roadworx said:

whenever plutonia is brought up, i always notice that a lot of people seem to regard it as some sort of brutally difficult, unfair levelset that's for masochists only. but...it really isn't? i just recently played through it on uv, and while it's absolutely not easy, it's honestly not as bad as it's made out to be other than a few specific areas. i was actually a bit underwhelmed - i'd heard about how it's hard af, and while that may have been the case 25 years ago, it's really not that bad anymore. and i really don't see myself as that great of a player, so it's not like i'm just really good at the game or anything

 

so...why does its seemingly mythical status as being ridiculously hard persist to today?

 

I'm going to need you to give a little more context to establish your position.  "Whenever Plutonia is brought up" includes this thread, and many replies here consider it not that difficult, or challenging for the time but no longer the case.  And this quote "i really don't see myself as that great of a player, so it's not like i'm just really good at the game or anything" is highly subjective. Different maps use different tricks and traps, and if you're used to the ones used in Plutonia you'll find it easier.

 

Here's context.  I played Doom in 1996 or 97, Doom 2 and Quake 1 around 2001.  I learned about TNT and Plutonia and the 2 Quake 1 expansions months ago, somewhere in 2021, and have been slogging though them.  I completed Doom 1 UV last week or two.  I've completed Doom 2, but not on UV.  Other FPS include  Far Cry and Fallout and Call of Duty so I'm no stranger to the first 25 years of the format.  I've seen nuts.wad and okuplok on youtube so I'm aware of the range of difficulty.

 

I've long wanted to start a thread on objective difficulty rating, specifically because of Back to Saturn X (which I love, but also kinda hate).  Difficulty is a combination of many aspects, which I think is a facet of the limited set of tools available.  You can make things more or less difficult in the map, and once you know how things are triggered you lose perspective on whether a new player will find the linedef needed to proceed.

 

1) Is there enough ammo to kill enough enemies to at least finish the level?

2) Are secrets required to access the ammo/backpack/weapons needed to finish?

3) Are those secrets findable, as in marked with a slightly different texture, or do you just run through and push every available wall?

4) Are traps clearly marked, as in here's a key you're going to be screwed, or is it just rat catching?

5) How much study is required to navigate the map and find the required items?

6) Is there an enclosed space with an enemy swarm and no realistic escape route?

 

By "escape route" I mean do you have room to rocket a bunch of enemies, do you have room to hide from Revenant rockets, is there a way to escape alive without knowing the simple pattern of shoot these, hide there, run there, shoot those?

 

There's more of course, but BTSX and a few other WADs had me at zero ammo very quickly.  That's an immediate rating of difficult for me, considering I finished Doom 1 on UV.  Having no ammo and not being able to find a secret to replenish ammo is basically game over.  Maybe BTSX and definitely Plutonia but at least one WAD I used idkfa and still ran out of ammo.  I'd rate that difficult.  I just today ran nerve.wad for the first time, and the cyber demon just required iddqd.  Sure tell me I suck but this is about difficulty.

 

My difficulty rating question essentially fall into the idea of, if I run degreelessness mode several times to learn the map and traps, then use noclip to figure out the secrets, and I know the map, how do I rate the map's difficulty?  How do I rate it with just degreelessness and missing some secrets?  How do I rate it on a blind run?

 

Now, your task is to justify your claim that 1) status persists to today 2) status remains ridiculously hard 3) this rating is unjustified, objectively.

 

I just played through half of level 1, found a room of chain gunners shooting at me, and reloaded a save game 4 times to realize a wall opens behind me with chain gunners making the same sounds, just hurting me in addition to the ones I can see.  I don't see how you can claim this is not ridiculously hard, I finished the level less than a month ago and there was absolutely no hint or warning that this would happen, and no indication I was being shot up the bum.  Blame Alzheimer's if you like, I have negative tests for that.

 

Do you just play a WAD to memorise the inputs, and then it's simple?  Or do you expect to get some replay value out of not always knowing exactly what's next?  I think the answer to that answers your question.  I gave up and have watched BigMacDavis play Plutonia, because I'm not spending the time memorising all of that.  I have watched BigMacDavis play many levels just to find out where the ammo is, only to find out he starts the level with WAY more ammo than I can find.  That's kind of #s 1,2,3 above because he does all at 100%.  But that's kind of my point.  Is completing the previous map at 100% a requirement for completing the current map at all?  And does that raise the difficulty of the current map, previous map, or both?

 

Tell me I suck and I'll fuck off.  But an objective measure of difficulty seems to be needed. Ammo not available is super hard.  Ammo not findable is extra hard.

 

Defend your position.  Some people think it's hard, you don't.  Objectively, what do you think makes it less difficult than many people think it is?  Ammo per square map unit?

[roadworx]

well shit, that's certainly a first post lol

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

I'm going to need you to give a little more context to establish your position.  "Whenever Plutonia is brought up" includes this thread, and many replies here consider it not that difficult, or challenging for the time but no longer the case.

you're right, i'm guilty of using hyperbolic blanket statements. however, what i will say is that it happens quite often, even if it's not 100% true in all cases

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

I've long wanted to start a thread on objective difficulty rating, specifically because of Back to Saturn X (which I love, but also kinda hate).  Difficulty is a combination of many aspects, which I think is a facet of the limited set of tools available.  You can make things more or less difficult in the map, and once you know how things are triggered you lose perspective on whether a new player will find the linedef needed to proceed.

 

1) Is there enough ammo to kill enough enemies to at least finish the level?

2) Are secrets required to access the ammo/backpack/weapons needed to finish?

3) Are those secrets findable, as in marked with a slightly different texture, or do you just run through and push every available wall?

4) Are traps clearly marked, as in here's a key you're going to be screwed, or is it just rat catching?

5) How much study is required to navigate the map and find the required items?

6) Is there an enclosed space with an enemy swarm and no realistic escape route?

 

By "escape route" I mean do you have room to rocket a bunch of enemies, do you have room to hide from Revenant rockets, is there a way to escape alive without knowing the simple pattern of shoot these, hide there, run there, shoot those? 

this is a very poor difficulty scale, but that's understandable considering you're new and are coming from more modern, typical fps games.

 

the thing that you need to understand about doom is that it's nothing like most fps games - it's quite unique, which is part of why it has such a large community even 25 years later. unlike the fps games you come from, which are primarily about reaction time, accuracy, and knowing your surroundings, in doom it's all about movement, prioritization, quick thinking, and a bit of resource management. things like dodging, circlestrafing, knowing what enemy to target first, knowing what weapon to use, recognizing opportunities for infighting, knowing when to pick up ammo or leave it for later; that's what makes someone skilled.

 

now, there's various ways difficulty can be achieved in doom, but the absolute biggest factor in how hard something is lies within it monster placement. ammo and navigability are factors too, sure, but monster placement is king. the placement of a single monster in a fight can sometimes make the difference between it being a breeze and it being tough as nails. this is where plutonia's difficulty comes from - its rather devious monster placement (that includes its dickish traps). ammo is plentiful (it is, you just need to have more experience with the game) and the maps are rather small, so those aren't as much of a factor

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

There's more of course, but BTSX and a few other WADs had me at zero ammo very quickly.  That's an immediate rating of difficult for me, considering I finished Doom 1 on UV.  Having no ammo and not being able to find a secret to replenish ammo is basically game over.  Maybe BTSX and definitely Plutonia but at least one WAD I used idkfa and still ran out of ammo.  I'd rate that difficult.  I just today ran nerve.wad for the first time, and the cyber demon just required iddqd.  Sure tell me I suck but this is about difficulty.

tbh i never had any trouble with ammo in plutonia - that's one thing it is generous with. and that's without secrets, cuz i suck at finding secrets. my guess is that, when you see ammo, you just go to pick it up without taking into account how much you have. i used to do that, and when i did i'd have difficulty with ammo as well

 

btw doom 1 is about as easy as it gets. its bestiary is far too limited and monster placement too tame to make anything that's genuinely really difficult for anyone other than people just starting out

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

Now, your task is to justify your claim that 1) status persists to today 2) status remains ridiculously hard 3) this rating is unjustified, objectively.

i'm not spending hours collecting examples to justify my claim to someone on an internet forum, sorry

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

I just played through half of level 1, found a room of chain gunners shooting at me, and reloaded a save game 4 times to realize a wall opens behind me with chain gunners making the same sounds, just hurting me in addition to the ones I can see.  I don't see how you can claim this is not ridiculously hard, I finished the level less than a month ago and there was absolutely no hint or warning that this would happen, and no indication I was being shot up the bum.  Blame Alzheimer's if you like, I have negative tests for that.

since you're coming from doom 1 and 2, that's understandable. that, as many have pointed out, is part of why it's known as such a difficult wad (and mind you i'm not claiming it's easy. it's not, all i'm saying is that its reputation isn't entirely justified anymore). as someone stated earlier, when you're starting out in plutonia, yeah, it's gonna seem unfair as all hell. but once you know what to expect and when to expect it, you'll recognize what's coming when you play more of the levels. it's predictable, and that's part of why it's not as hard as people make it out to be. once you're ready for what's coming, it's actually not too bad.

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

I gave up and have watched BigMacDavis play Plutonia, because I'm not spending the time memorising all of that.  I have watched BigMacDavis play many levels just to find out where the ammo is, only to find out he starts the level with WAY more ammo than I can find.  That's kind of #s 1,2,3 above because he does all at 100%.  But that's kind of my point.  Is completing the previous map at 100% a requirement for completing the current map at all?  And does that raise the difficulty of the current map, previous map, or both? 

no, you don't need 100% from the previous map. all the maps are entirely beatable from pistol-start, and have enough ammo for that as well.

 

2 hours ago, BadJuju said:

Tell me I suck and I'll fuck off.  But an objective measure of difficulty seems to be needed. Ammo not available is super hard.  Ammo not findable is extra hard.

 

Defend your position.  Some people think it's hard, you don't.  Objectively, what do you think makes it less difficult than many people think it is?  Ammo per square map unit?

considering you're just starting out...yeah, you suck lol. anyone just starting out will

 

ammo is plentiful, that's not what makes plutonia's difficulty. its difficulty, again, comes from monster placement and traps. however, due to the placement being somewhat tame by modern standards and the traps being predictable once you know what's gonna get thrown at you, it's nowhere near as bad as some people claim

Edited May 5, 2021 by roadworx

[T-Rex]

7 hours ago, head_cannon said:

The generosity of Plutonia's item placement is one of the reasons I consider the megawad so fun - the action scenes ask a lot of the player and seemed quite daunting to me, but the way that the maps would frequently give you full ammo & armor really helped to take the edge off. I was more willing to meet it halfway and engage with it because I got the impression that the designers were operating in good faith; these setups felt like the mapset was saying "You have everything you need, now go to it."

Regardless of how generous Plutonia may be with the item placement, that still doesn't mean casual players can be able to pick it up and beat it with ease, because as many stated, the difficulty of Plutonia comes from its sadistic monster placement, the kaizo-esque traps, and the compact layout of the maps. However, once you have played through the levels many times to have the foreknowledge of what's coming ahead and use the right strategy for the combat scenarios, it becomes an enjoyable wad, so it's very effective at really improving your Doom skills.

Edited May 5, 2021 by T-Rex

[DRM-MAN]

Because it's a rubbish old mess, obviously better megawads have come out since then, and they can actually be called difficult. As someone who as been playing doom since it's sequel, I can say that plutonia is not that hard, it really seems like it's only perceived as difficult to newer players because of their lack of skill.

[Mystic 256]

Plutonia was the hardest official doom iwad/game (i consider Final Doom official personally) until Doom 2016 and later Eternal (I consider them both much harder than Plutonia, im not sure what the consensus is)

[Edward850]

2 minutes ago, Mystic 256 said:

(i consider Final Doom official personally)

You don't have to "consider" Final Doom official. It literally already is.

3 minutes ago, Mystic 256 said:

Plutonia was the hardest official doom iwad/game until Doom 2016

From personal experience, there is no way Doom 2016 is harder than Plutonia.

[whybmonotacrab]

16 minutes ago, Mystic 256 said:

Plutonia was the hardest official doom iwad/game (i consider Final Doom official personally) until Doom 2016 and later Eternal (I consider them both much harder than Plutonia, im not sure what the consensus is)

I don't find 2016 all that hard, but Eternal definitely is. I find Eternal's difficulty more palatable though, since its difficulty comes from learning a deep combat system that makes it almost feel like a character action game in first person, whereas Plutonia's is mostly from mean spirited "Gotcha" moments. I still love Plutonia, don't get me wrong, it's just that while Eternal might actually result in more deaths and feel like a bigger workout, it's feels less crushing and punishing overall.

[Zulk RS]

16 hours ago, Edward850 said:

From personal experience, there is no way Doom 2016 is harder than Plutonia.

 

Can you really even compare Doom 2016's difficulty to the difficulty of Plutonia or any of the classic doom iwads/pwads? Aren't the games a bit too different for that kind of comparison? I mean I guess you technically can in the same way you can compare the difficulty of something like Link to The Past with Majora's Mask? I don't know.

[ApprihensivSoul]

Plutonia, at its best, is mostly combat puzzle style encounters, which means making a wrong decision in UV usually means death. This doesn't mean that the puzzles are unusually difficult or complex (with exceptions), or that it doesn't feature cheap traps ala Doom 2 (though usually higher caliber monsters) or wandering monsters ala TNT, just that those aren't the focus.

 

It's quite a bit harder than the previously released official wads, and a huge influence on modern mappers responsible for the other wads mentioned here as "Harder" or "More Difficult".

 

Not saying that they aren't more difficult, just that they learned alot from it when it comes to monster complements and encounter design, and elements of it still stick around in alot of creations today.

[Teo Slayer]

Too many Boners with homing missiles and Chaingunners

An Archvile reviving a Chaingunner all over and over

Map 11 is a nightmare

Map 32 is insane

 

It drove me insane but I enjoyed the later maps

[dei_eldren]

i'm one of those who hasn't played Plutonia, initially it was on account of it's reputation, but now it's more because i've seen many playthroughs of it, and it's not in style i'd enjoy (someone called it trial and error), though it's very entertaining to watch the adepts playing it.  Of course, Go 2 It worries me, too  i guess it's more strategic than i'm willing to commit myself to with Doom at this time.

 

For me it's even more inexplicable why some on YT exaggerated the difficulty of Si666il - my guess is mostly because it showed they simply weren't very good at the game, while it doesn't actually seem to give much problems to anyone playing on their normal difficulty setting (me included).  (Those voices weren't very many, but they were loud at some point.)

Edited May 8, 2021 by dei_eldren

[GraphicBleeder]

On 5/4/2021 at 6:32 AM, whybmonotacrab said:

Because they're gamers. Not Doomers. To someone who doesn't play Doom every day, Plutonia is difficult. Those guys are better than a most at video games because they play them every day as part of their job and they find Plutonia difficult. To someone who doesn't play a lot of video games it's insanely difficult. I don't understand how it's this difficult to process.

 

 It was hilariously disheartening seeing this right above a thread called [Embarrassing thread] Wads with a difficulty between Doom II and Plutonia where people were bending over backwards to tell OP it wasn't embarrassing to want to play easier megawads.

Isn't Civvie like, mainly an older-shooter player?

I don't know, just since most of his vids are for games like Quake, Doom, and Duke Nukem I figure'd he'd be pretty experienced at Doom.

[roadworx]

5 minutes ago, GraphicBleeder said:

Isn't Civvie like, mainly an older-shooter player?

I don't know, just since most of his vids are for games like Quake, Doom, and Duke Nukem I figure'd he'd be pretty experienced at Doom.

he is, and while he does love doom, he's not the best at it lol