Programming Languages in 2021

[Sunnyfruit]

So, for information, I use PHP at work, but during my free time, I love to quibble in Java, as it is the first programming language I learned. But in the back of my head, I feel like I'm going to experiment with C++ instead.

 

My main concern about Java is mainly the good old "Java is slow" problem, the sigh people usually let out when they learn this or that utility program is made using this language, and I would like to feel like learning/owning more options in the way I code (also learning not to rely on a garbage collector). C++ being presented as the big toolbox you're free to use the way you want, it presents itself in a very attractive way for me.

 

I feel like Java is getting more and more left behind as I look on Google and fall back on 2013 answers or barebones discussions. People used to present C# as Java's replacement since some years, but even that seems to be a long time ago. Python and JavaScript seem for some years now to be the big shiny new utility/interactivity languages with lively communities.

 

So, I don't want to make this the "is Java dead?" thread, so what's the forum's opinions about where the languages go? PHP Java C Python, JS, etc. Five years ago, I would recommend Java to a beginner (come on, "public static void main string args" is nothing), but now, I'd rather propose Python, although I'm not a big fan of the indentation/lack of semicolons and very high-level simplicity of it.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Note:  I used to use Common Lisp and C# at work.  Since I don't work anymore, I use Common Lisp and Crystal mainly during my free time, though not exclusively.  Sometimes I dabble with Nim, and I had a bit of a Go episode as well.  But 95% of what I do is in CL or Crystal these days.

Anyway, for a while I kinda went through the same questions you're having.  On the one hand, there was this whole idea of staying relevant and up to date.  But you really have to be careful not to fall into trends and fads, for lack of better words.  Eventually I realized it's best just to use 1) works best for a particular problem, and 2) is rather fun to use, with #1 being more important.  If a problem simply fits Common Lisp's object system a lot better, I'll probably use that instead of something else.  If speed is of the utmost importance, I'll probably use Crystal or Nim (this is where #2 comes in - I enjoy them more than C++).  If space is most important, I'd probably use Nim or Object Pascal or C or something like that, where I could better control memory usage.  It just depends on the end goal - what's popular doesn't necessarily figure into it unless I really need to ensure a library exists or something.  Heck, if a shell script works best, I'm going to spend time writing Bash code.

My TLDR point is: just use what's best for a particular problem, and don't worry about if something is "dead".  It almost certainly isn't if you have a good legit use for it.

Also remember to keep in mind that saying "Java is slow" is highly dependent on the problem you're trying to solve, how you're going about solving it, which VM you're using... and so on.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Remilia Scarlet

[Taw Tu'lki]

I use PHP and JavaScript, because I'm programming websites.

[Bauul]

You mean there are other programming languages than ACS, Decorate and ZScript?

[dpJudas]

When people sigh about Java it isn't because "Java is slow". It has to do with what it takes to run a java application: the JRE needs to be installed. For most types of applications it doesn't really matter how fast your language is.

 

Also, since it sounds like you are (relatively) new to programming, keep in mind that developers invest a lot in the technology stack that they use. That means you will almost always hear people from different stacks complain no matter what you use. If you use C++ you'll hear the C# dudes sigh. If you use C# the python devs will sigh. If you use python the java devs will sigh. And so on. That's just how the tech world works. Don't let the peer pressure of other developers dictate which tools you use. Pick what you find to be the best solution for the problem for you. :)

[jaeden]

I use mostly C# at work.

When I need to quickly code/automate something, then I use Python.

 

 

And I subjectively dislike Javascript.

[MFG38]

15 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

That means you will almost always hear people from different stacks complain no matter what you use. If you use C++ you'll hear the C# dudes sigh. If you use C# the python devs will sigh. If you use python the java devs will sigh. And so on.

 

Solution: learn the most obscure programming language possible. Then nobody will sigh at you.

[Sunnyfruit]

41 minutes ago, Remilia Scarlet said:

My TLDR point is: just use what's best for a particular problem, and don't worry about if something is "dead".  It almost certainly isn't if you have a good legit use for it.

Also remember to keep in mind that saying "Java is slow" is highly dependent on the problem you're trying to solve, how you're going about solving it, which VM you're using... and so on.

 

15 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

Also, since it sounds like you are (relatively) new to programming, keep in mind that developers invest a lot in the technology stack that they use. That means you will almost always hear people from different stacks complain no matter what you use. If you use C++ you'll hear the C# dudes sigh. If you use C# the python devs will sigh. If you use python the java devs will sigh. And so on. That's just how the tech world works. Don't let the peer pressure of other developers dictate which tools you use. Pick what you find to be the best solution for the problem for you. :)

 

True, I only seriously got into programming with a backend job at the end around two years ago, and I have yet to find the hell non-PHP developers warned me about haha. Java is doing great for me, but as I only make up small programs for fun, I always had that doubt in the back of my head.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bauul said:

You mean there are other programming languages than ACS, Decorate and ZScript?

 

But there's also GML.

[dpJudas]

Just now, MFG38 said:

Solution: learn the most obscure programming language possible. Then nobody will sigh at you.

You actually want them to hate your choices. As a C++ developer, the day everyone else stops hating me is the sign that C++ is done and everyone moved on. ;)

[DNSKILL5]

Whether it’s a career goal or a hobby, I feel for a beginner there really is no “right” answer as to which language is the best to start with. There are just too many factors at play for there to be a simple answer. It really has more to do with the individual as to what would work best for them. 
 

my opinion is a person should go with the language that will allow them to achieve ALL of their short term goals, then they can always learn other languages later for the long term. For someone who might be working independently/self employed/ or simply as a hobby, that is likely the best route to go, but it can go beyond just writing and maintaining the program if you want to make a life long career out of it though. It can include being able to work with other people with this programming language you choose (and to understand their code which may be different from how you do it) including in-person and remotely, and to be able to find employment in your local area or to be willing to relocate or travel from home could be a factor to put into it as well. It really all just depends on the person basically, no one size fits all. 

[ketmar]

14 hours ago, Sunnyfruit said:

what's the forum's opinions about where the languages go?

i can't care less. when you know how to program you're chosing a language based on task requirements. this is the only thing that matters. and if there are some hard requirements on the language, you can learn enough of it in a week to be productive. so i always find questions like "which language /is best/to learn/etc." somewhat... fun. it's like: "oh, i know that walking in boots is so old-fashioned. should i learn to walk in shoes instead, or it's even better to do it with bare feet?"

[ketmar]

14 hours ago, Bauul said:

You mean there are other programming languages than ACS, Decorate and ZScript?

of course! c'mon, VavoomC was there when ZScript was DoomScript, and the work on it wasn't even started!

[jval]

As a professional my programming environment mostly involves COBOL in *NIX operating systems. As a hobby programmer I use Pascal for more than 30 years.

[vyruss]

I don't have really anything to add about what language to use for what purpose that hasn't already been said as the general sentiment on how to approach it has been addressed multiple times in this thread.  Being one of those "full-stack" weenies myself, knowing a language is only part of the puzzle.  Understanding system architecture, component interaction and integration are parts of the formula too from this vantage point.

 

For personal use, the more you have a firm understanding of, the better.  C++ is a good language to know and worth the endeavor of pursuing and understanding.  Design things to be maintainable and written in such a way that you could understand them if you were pretty well soused.

[Stupid Bunny]

8 hours ago, jval said:

COBOL

 

This is one I did not expect to see in a "Programming languages in 2021" thread

[Antkibo]

C++ is a must if you want to contribute to open-source desktop projects (most DOOM source ports, text editors, office suites, etc.). Java is legacy tech at this point, so most developers don't choose Java, Java chooses them (e.g. they are hired to work on a 10-year old backend). My main problem with it is not the language but the ecosystem. How fucked up is a language that needs a certain IDE (Eclipse or IDEA) for a project to compile? If CMake is bad, then Ant/Maven/Gradle is nightmare stuff.

 

I think 2021 will follow the same trend as previous years: JavaScript and Python at the top, then Ruby/Node/PHP for backend. I really like Go, but it's relative new and needs time to grow—Rust even more.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Antkibo

[Billy Baron]

In 2021, I think probably one thing that computer programmers need to remember is pretty consistent no matter which language you use.

 

 

[ketmar]

also. do you know that it is possible to write standalone apps in VavoomC? (yes, i did it several times) and it is better designed than C++ (because everything is better designed than C++). eat that, ZScript!

Edited May 5, 2021 by ketmar

[Remilia Scarlet]

3 hours ago, ketmar said:

also. do you know that it is possible to write standalone apps in VavoomC? (yes, i did it several times) and it is better designed than C++ (because everything is better designed than C++). eat that, ZScript!

I actually almost did this not long ago just for fun.  I'll eventually do it if I have a good quick thing to write up.

[Billy Baron]

You could use Bruce-Lewis Script and take six months to do it. You have to worry about Lightning striking your computer, though, so be careful.

 

That's something that has changed since the good 'ol days. It used to be a guy who could or couldn't (Like Bruce Lewis) would make a big statement about how we were going to see something from him (like GLDoom) "soon". It takes a lot of cojones to say that, and it's something we haven't seen in a long time. Nowadays, it's just like a bunch of surprise random bug fixes, or bug fixes in response to people reporting bugs. But I think a developer should shy away from that golden chance to get shredded publicly for not delivering on those words. But a loss of these expectations, as I like to call them, means the life has gone out of the community.

  Yes I have a loud mouth. Yes you deserve to be destroyed for not unloading the program in finished form on us. We want to be in awe of and be wowed by programming expertise got "expertise", Kid.

 

I think maybe the programming techniques you're referring to are those legendary coding skills that separated the men from the boys. What we're seeing here is more of the Apologetic Programming, or as I like to call them Sorry-Ass Excuses. I don't mean anyone in particular, just look at that out of control mess DOOM Eternal - It took like over a year after the originally planned release date, and it deserves these words for the mile long skid line trailing behind it from when it jammed on the breaks to try and stop itself from plowing through the brick wall of its release date and going all the way to where its final resting place was a year late in May 2020. R.I.P., you late piece of $hi7.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love DOOM as much as the next guy. But if you can't take the criticism, put the whip down and stop whipping your S&M love-donkey because it doesn't really love it.

 

Maybe there is room for some Legendary Programmers this year. Maybe it's a bunch of crying though. A lot of people weren't exactly cheesed when "Billy Baron and the Dancing Demons" had to show up minus a few of those Dancing Demons that I promised them. And that blows Donkey Dick.