Have WAD Expectations Changed?

[MajorRawne]

1 hour ago, SilverMiner said:

I can't say what do I expect from a modern wad overall but

I'm pretty sure that IOS fights became useless and redundant

 

I'm sure they were fine in the first 2000 or so megawads that ended with one.

[SilverMiner]

1 hour ago, MajorRawne said:

I'm sure they were fine in the first 2000 or so megawads that ended with one.

The keyword is "were" :)

[MajorRawne]

12 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

The keyword is "were" :)

 

I know, it was a joke, I never play IOS maps.

[MattFright]

If anything, Doom wads have only raised expectations for me about commercial games.

 

Why should i buy something unless its at least as much fun as all of the custom content people have made for this fantastic nearly three decades old game that i already own?

[Doomkid]

11 hours ago, MattFright said:

If anything, Doom wads have only raised expectations for me about commercial games.

 

Why should i buy something unless its at least as much fun as all of the custom content people have made for this fantastic nearly three decades old game that i already own?

It’s been kind of funny watching the world of modern gaming from the outside, seeing all these games release and have their initial wave of popularity, then slowly fade away from the social consciousness.. meanwhile Doom and it’s community are still keeping it going, year after year.

 

The usernames change, new wads are added alongside the old ones into the fold of what’s considered legendary, the ports we use to play are slowly but surely updated all the time.. but at the end of the day it’s still the same old game - still as fun as it was on launch day ~30 years later.

 

Looking at it from the capitalist perspective, the value is frankly out of this world. If I added up every time my dad bought some variant of the game when I was a kid, and every time I bought a version with my own money (the GBA ports and 360 ports come to mind), it would probably total to about 60 dollars. 60 measly bucks for countless thousands of hours of entertainment.. one day It’ll probably be illegal to make a product with that much value for the consumer!... 

[xvertigox]

I manage my expectations based on context. If I'm playing a wad from a D!ZONE my bar for 'good' or 'enjoyable' is vastly different to if I play a new Ribbiks wad (for example). I can fully enjoy wads that would definitely not hold up to modern scrutiny because I try to mentally take myself back in time (playing in Choc Doom helps) and enjoy it as a product of it's time.

 

The same goes for maps from novice mappers. Things that I see as common mistakes for newbies also bring an element of charm. There's something cute and appreciable with a boxy, linear wad where you see a person discover the joy of mapping (don't sue me plz jimmy).

 

Ironically, I can't apply this logic to my own maps. If my own maps aren't what I consider extremely good (i.e a ribbiks level map) then I think it's just dogshit (so far none of my maps are what I would ever refer to as 'good').

[ketmar]

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

one day It’ll probably be illegal to make a product with that much value for the consumer!... 

it is already forbidden in the game industry. and it seems in movie industry too.

[Kyka]

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

It’s been kind of funny watching the world of modern gaming from the outside, seeing all these games release and have their initial wave of popularity, then slowly fade away from the social consciousness.. meanwhile Doom and it’s community are still keeping it going, year after year.

 

The usernames change, new wads are added alongside the old ones into the fold of what’s considered legendary, the ports we use to play are slowly but surely updated all the time.. but at the end of the day it’s still the same old game - still as fun as it was on launch day ~30 years later.

 

Looking at it from the capitalist perspective, the value is frankly out of this world. If I added up every time my dad bought some variant of the game when I was a kid, and every time I bought a version with my own money (the GBA ports and 360 ports come to mind), it would probably total to about 60 dollars. 60 measly bucks for countless thousands of hours of entertainment.. one day It’ll probably be illegal to make a product with that much value for the consumer!... 

 

Great post and very true.

 

I probably shouldn't  say this on a public forum, don't wanna give those entertainment mega-corporations ideas, but imagine if they get it in their heads to charge not for the product, but for time spent on the product. Say, I don't know, 5-10c an hour for every hour spent.

 

I know that sounds terrible, but bear with me here. Just imagine if there was a financial incentive for them to make good games that we keep coming back to year after year, rather than artificially manufacturing hype for the same tired titles year after year.

 

I admit it is tougher for developers now. The original Doom was made in a tenth the time, with less than a tenth of the staff or office requirements of modern games. So the cost is massively higher. But that in no way excuses the sheer dreary desert of cheap cliches, tired reruns, and stale narratives that we are fed now.

 

Anyway, this is my poorly thought out response to a pretty good post.

Edited May 7, 2021 by bLOCKbOYgAMES

[ketmar]

3 hours ago, bLOCKbOYgAMES said:

imagine if they get it in their heads to charge not for the product, but for time spent on the product.

this is basically any massive mp game today, with various kinds of "battle passes" and such. and they squeezing even more with lootboxes sorry, Premium Content.

 

also, for SP games this will require "always connected", and you basically will be unable to play if publisher servers are down. it is already the case sometimes, and it won't be fun if it will become a common thing.

[MajorRawne]

I feel like most things are degrading in the modern world.  You can't watch anything without someone's bizarre agenda being rammed down your throat at the expense of characterisation, plot, etc. The news is hopelessly and blatantly biased - they don't even try to hide that they're feeding you their opinion rather than a neutral summary of the facts. Are any news agencies still unbiased in this day and age?

 

As for games, yeah, they're all heavily scripted, limited replay value, you spend more time looking for collectibles and trying to hit achievements than enjoying the game. I think this started in Final Fantasy. Look at 7, 8, 9, all vast games spread across multiple discs, with hundreds of different enemies, dozens of locations, semi-open-world travel. Then look at 10. By the time you get to Mt Gagazet, you've fought pallette swaps of the same 5 enemies about a thousand times. The game boils down to the same three characters spamming the same move (Quick Hits) with the same enchantments on their gear. The optional superbosses are yet more pallette swaps that are either impossible, or ludicrously easy, depending on your characters. The open world feel was destroyed and is eventually reduced to being a menu. So many people adore this game, and yet it is like the blunted, limited cousin of the games that came before it, because "that's progress".

 

Don't get me started on how limited the gameplay of Doom 2016 was... go down a corridor, into a room, kill a few waves of enemies (they can't all spawn at once because modern computers are tens of thousands of times more powerful than in the 90s, which obviously means they can handle less), hit a gore switch, fight more waves of enemies. Maybe do a couple of cool jumps after. Throw the same deathmove in 500 times, create some bosses because every FPS needs massive bosses. Hey look, I just created a modern Doom game.

[NoXion]

2 hours ago, MajorRawne said:

I feel like most things are degrading in the modern world.  You can't watch anything without someone's bizarre agenda being rammed down your throat at the expense of characterisation, plot, etc. The news is hopelessly and blatantly biased - they don't even try to hide that they're feeding you their opinion rather than a neutral summary of the facts. Are any news agencies still unbiased in this day and age?

People have always put their personal views on society and politics in stories. Books like Gulliver's Travels weren't just fantasies meant to be entertaining. It's not a new thing, you just got better at spotting it.

News agencies have never been unbiased. I wish people would understand that such a thing is actually impossible. Back in the days when newspapers first started coming out, it was even harder for the reading public to tell if they were being fed a line of bullshit. You couldn't go on the internet and check various different sources, public libraries were few and far in between, and you might not have even had much in the way of alternative sources to get a different view on the news of the day.

 

Of course this isn't to say that good journalism isn't possible; just that you cannot eliminate bias. Bias is as much about which stories get put on the front page and which don't even get a sidebar, as much as it is about how the story is told. In a connected world of billions, that kind of decision is forced on everyone who reports the news. There's no literally time to adequately cover everything.

Edited May 7, 2021 by NoXion

[NoXion]

Here's an example of what I mean by the difference between having no bias and having good journalism. It's a source that very definitely does not share my own bias (i.e. I am most definitely not a Conservative of any stripe), but this particular article I would nevertheless consider to be a standout example of decent journalism.

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by NoXion

[Antkibo]

Yea

[Somniac]

13 hours ago, xvertigox said:

I manage my expectations based on context. If I'm playing a wad from a D!ZONE my bar for 'good' or 'enjoyable' is vastly different to if I play a new Ribbiks wad (for example). I can fully enjoy wads that would definitely not hold up to modern scrutiny because I try to mentally take myself back in time (playing in Choc Doom helps) and enjoy it as a product of it's time.

 

The same goes for maps from novice mappers. Things that I see as common mistakes for newbies also bring an element of charm. There's something cute and appreciable with a boxy, linear wad where you see a person discover the joy of mapping (don't sue me plz jimmy).

 

Ironically, I can't apply this logic to my own maps. If my own maps aren't what I consider extremely good (i.e a ribbiks level map) then I think it's just dogshit (so far none of my maps are what I would ever refer to as 'good').

 

100% agree. Context is everything! 

[MFG38]

I'd frankly be concerned if they hadn't. You can only play so many 1994-style maps in a row before becoming bored and wanting to try something new, whether it be looking for something that looks fresh to play or making such a product yourself.

[Optimus]

The truly bad 1994 WADs are the ones where everything is horribly aligned but mostly regular walls that act like doors in the middle of nowhere, so you end up hugging regular walls and trying use on anything, those walls-doors are for normal progression not secrets, they are everywhere. And the general quality of those anyway is just draw a simple empty room with startan all over, don't bother to change texture or add something distinctive.

 

But otherwise minimalistic visuals and simple detail doesn't bother me as long as there are proper aligned textures where they should be, doors are door textures (unless it's a secret where still it could be some other hint to find them). I can still find some WADs in the 90s that don't have the issues from the first paragraph but is more like this one, simple minimalistic with shotgun against easy enemies, but maybe in the minimalism some kind of atmosphere is conveyed.

 

I like sometimes high details on maps, but for my taste I would design whatever I prefer, and some people might like and other might not. If you do something that doesn't have the obviously bad elements of 1994 but still is simple but fun then there will be a portion of Doomers who will still enjoy it for what it is.

[Jacek Bourne]

How would wad expectations not change? Over time people become better at making enjoyable wads so therefore the best wads of 2020 will be far better than the best wads of 2000.

[Kyka]

4 hours ago, NoXion said:

Here's an example of what I mean by the difference between having no bias and having good journalism. It's a source that very definitely does not share my own bias (i.e. I am most definitely not a Conservative of any stripe), but this particular article I would nevertheless consider to be a standout example of decent journalism.

 

Actually a pretty good article.

[LateToDOOM2020]

 

16 hours ago, MFG38 said:

I'd frankly be concerned if they hadn't. You can only play so many 1994-style maps in a row before becoming bored and wanting to try something new, whether it be looking for something that looks fresh to play or making such a product yourself.

 

I'm guessing if you play any "style" long enough then that would make sense. I guess im just thinking a wad with minimal development skills is probably still surprising but I haven't played Doom for long enough! There are things that I could see becoming predictable in some of those wads that from what I have seen with newer wads are unexpected and feel new to DOOM due to the creativity. That is ofcourse within the doom style gameplay design but the maps can really surprise me based on how things can be designed. Even something as simple as the DOOM2  Episode thats ..a mineshaft? I noticed quickly the cross fire that I have not really seen in doom before. These little changes Make gameplay more tricky and fun.

[Borax Man]

It was harder to make wads back then.  I made some in 1994-1996, and I used a 386DX20 with 4M of RAM.  Playtesting was slow, as the game took ages to load, the editors were more basic.  There were great levels, but when I went back to editing in recent years, the speed, the new features the editor has, made level editing, and making more complex things easier.

 

[thestarrover]

When Doom was released in 1993, I was 15 and I was amazed by it.It was ,and still is , a superb game.At that time the opportunity for people to modify the levels and to develop their imagination and their own "vision" of Doom was so great that, even with few and basic tools and hardware, everyone more or less skilled tried to do their best to create something unique and special and their were proud to share their works with others. Today there are many skilled and talented people who create wonderful and amazing maps and levels with  superb graphic and gameplay, but at that time the "idea"itself of taking Doom and modifying it to your liking was, in my opinion, far superior then the quality of the maps.

[Azuris]

On 5/3/2021 at 2:19 PM, rd. said:

 

Running Late 2 has plenty of squat, rectangular areas -- a "mapping dogma no-no" in some circles:

 

 

 

Have to laugh here since my current Map has a really blocky Mainhall, it was not intended to be like that, but i have to since it crashes if i add more Details^^
So it is Function > Style.

So i would add here, it really depends on what a WAD is aiming for.
If it aims for Compatibility with Vanilla Doom (2), there have to be some Compromisses and with that the Expactions have to change.