Open World

[Malurek]

Is there, or is there going to be a WAD, (like a super megaWAD), that has an open world like Marrowind, or Skyrim?  One huge map, with sprawling dungeons, and dacilities?  Teleported that put you on space stations, mars, phobos, deimos, through he'll and back again?

 

Side quests, main quests, loot etc?  Upgraded body armor?  

 

I think you can see where im getting at.

[Jacek Bourne]

That would be possible with GzDoom however it would be incredibly taxing on your systems and unlikely to be playable by most people until hardware improves.

[Malurek]

3 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

That would be possible with GzDoom however it would be incredibly taxing on your systems and unlikely to be playable by most people until hardware improves.

Maybe something like this could be done for any system in skyrim? 

 

Similar to DOOM EXP, but the player gains levels, and the enemies scale?  Only without the Mario Bros. one up sound , and loot boxes.

 

Kind of like Marrblivion, skywind, or skyblivion?

 

Im not sure if DOOM EXP has the Mario sound, I was watching YouTube about it.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Malurek

[DavidN]

In practical terms the Doom/GZDoom engines aren’t designed to handle large continuous open worlds like this - Doom maps are much smaller environments where everything is always on. But you could definitely make an open world style of game in GZDoom (or even Hexen) by chaining maps together and letting the player go back and forth between them.

[continuum.mid]

I mean, there are some pretty big maps out there - Ar Luminae and ZDoom Community Map Project Take 2 come to mind, and those also happen to have lore to varying degrees. I think there are other GZDoom WADs I have heard of that have similar ideas. Sadly though, Doom Engine isn't built for open worlds.

 

If you were to make an open world in Doom, @DavidN's suggestion is the closest you could get.

Edited May 5, 2021 by northivanastan

[SilverMiner]

Serpent's Wake (Hexen) comes to my mind

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, Malurek said:

Is there, or is there going to be a WAD, (like a super megaWAD), that has an open world like Marrowind, or Skyrim?  One huge map, with sprawling dungeons, and dacilities?  Teleported that put you on space stations, mars, phobos, deimos, through he'll and back again?

 

Side quests, main quests, loot etc?  Upgraded body armor?  

 

I think you can see where im getting at.

The Doom Engine isn't designed to do Open World in the way you want it (Seamless, without loading screens) simply because the Doom Engine is technology from the 90's. You can't retrofit newer design paradigms like that in such a crufty engine.

 

14 minutes ago, Malurek said:

Maybe something like this could be done for any system in skyrim? 

 

Similar to DOOM EXP, but the player gains levels, and the enemies scale?  Only without the Mario Bros. one up sound , and loot boxes.

 

Kind of like Marrblivion, skywind, or skyblivion?

There are RPG mods, yes. And then there is ZDaemon City, which feels like Open World, atleast:
 

 

[Dweller Dark]

AFAIK, Strife is about as close to open world as it can get, or at least an RPG-style open world. I don't know if GZDoom is capable of it, but pulling a GoldSrc/Source move to load in different sections of an area may work. I know Ion Fury did that with the Build Engine/EDuke32 to a degree, so if GZDoom can handle it, it might work.

[Chip]

I think it could be possible if you were able to totally delete intermission screens between levels. For example, in Red Faction (A real game separate from DOOM), the game loads a new environment as you walk into it, and you can look behind you, and it seems like you just entered the area, but in fact, you actually were teleported to another environment completely. It's also similar to what they do in Skyrim like when you enter a new city. Instead of the city actually being inside the fort, you're placed on an entirely new level. You could make a huge map in GZDoom like others on the thread say, but If you wanted to make it not lag that much, you just make the map fairly large and just put sections you could walk through. I think they did that in Strife, but I'm not sure. I haven't played Strife, so I don't know, but from videos it seems like you can. 

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

Is there any documentation about how much stuff you can fit into a Hexen-like Strife-like hub connected pack of GZDoom maps before it starts to lag? What is the most important things to take into account? Like, what happens when a map is left, is everything stored in Ram? Does it affects CPU threads? Does it bloats save files?

Anybody ever experimented with any extremely huge hub wads that can serve as "dont do this" examples?

I mean, Hexen and Strife had pretty big maps for it's days, with 5 or 6 maps in a hub, and it was meant to run on Pentium II computers with about 32mb of ram. So should any modern i3 with 4gb of ram be able to run a 30 level hub on gzdoom?

Edited May 5, 2021 by Sergeant_Mark_IV

[Deleted]

You could "fudge" it by having one or more large maps that serve as hubs with dungeons (bases, other levels, etc.) sprinkled about for you to enter. Everything would still be separated by level transitions, and you'd have to think of creative ways to make the hubs feel reactive to your progress.  

[Dweller Dark]

1 minute ago, hjordan159 said:

You could "fudge" it by having one or more large maps that serve as hubs with dungeons (bases, other levels, etc.) sprinkled about for you to enter. Everything would still be separated by level transitions, and you'd have to think of creative ways to make the hubs feel reactive to your progress.  

 

NPC reactions or hub visual changes/swaps might work, if they're technically plausible. Like, you go from City A to Dungeon B, and you return to see the city in flames or something. 

[jaeden]

Well according to ZDoom wiki:

Quote

Unless you use very large levels, you could probably use 50 levels in a hub, and only about 1 meg would be required to keep track of the state of each level.

 

So it should not be problem to have large hubs.

[Bauul]

As others have suggested, the Hub system borrowed from Hexen would likely be the best approach for this, as a given Doom level cannot reliably exceed ~32K map units across.  It wouldn't be truly open-world, but you could create something pseudo-open-world like the original Stalker: large areas with funnel points for moving between them. 

 

With GZDoom, you can also specify individual Player Start points, so you could have multiple entrances to a single level.  You can also almost entirely remove the level-transition screen, so aside from a short loading pause transition would be relatively seamless (a little like how Half-Life worked).

 

You could even use a kind of 3D skybox to display a diorama of the nearby levels in the sky of a given level, which would give the impression of being part of one big area without having to load it all into a single map.  

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

The Doom Engine isn't designed to do Open World in the way you want it (Seamless, without loading screens) simply because the Doom Engine is technology from the 90's not designed for that.

Patched. :p

 

There were open world games in the 90s, and even in the 80s. Bethesda's The Terminator, Arena, and Daggerfall are some examples most people here are probably familiar with, at least in name. I could also mention 2D RPGs such as the old Ultima series or, in a different genre, the Elite/Frontier series.

[Malurek]

All good information.  Im not a mapper, or a coder, or a programmer, but I've been taking notes on a huge, single map area, that breaks down into sub-areas, like individual levels, but still within the same map.  

 

This way, it breaks from the 32 level limit, (i think that's the limit because of Icon of Sin), so I could have like, 40 levels if I wanted, byt in one large WAD of a map.

 

My idea is to have each area end with a switch, and new music transition in after the final switch of an area is activated, (if that's possible), this way, you know you've gone into the, "NEXT level".

 

Im jot sure if i want the area behind you to lock or not.  Probably not, this way, backtraccking is a thing in case you missed something.  

 

There's alot floating in my head right now about this, im jyst not entirely sure how to go about it yet.

[Gez]

15 minutes ago, Malurek said:

This way, it breaks from the 32 level limit, (i think that's the limit because of Icon of Sin), so I could have like, 40 levels if I wanted, byt in one large WAD of a map.

What 32 levels limit?

[Malurek]

10 minutes ago, Gez said:

What 32 levels limit?

I read somewhere that a standard WAD couldnt have more than 32 levels because of hard coding becayse the Icon of Sin is the final level.

 

That you couldchange the last level, but you couldnt go past that many levels.  (Or maybe it was that ypu couldn't modify the vanilla Doom 2 Icon of Sin level because of end credits and hard coding that, that it's supposed to be the end).

Edited May 5, 2021 by Malurek

[Bauul]

4 minutes ago, Malurek said:

I read somewhere that a standard WAD couldnt have more than 32 levels because of hard coding becayse the Icon of Sin is the final level.

 

In the vanilla engine, maybe.  But source ports have removed that limit long ago.  The maximum number of levels for an advanced source port like GZDoom is likely in the tens of thousands (32,768 would be my guess).

[El Inferno]

56 minutes ago, Malurek said:

new music transition in after the final switch of an area is activated, (if that's possible)

 

MUSINFO allows to do this in basically any sourceport (prb+, crispy, ...). Up to 63 different songs is possible inside one map! The only limitation is that the only way to switch the music is by stepping on a certain sector (so, say, you cannot do this using voodoo-dolls, as far as I know). Ancient Aliens map 1 is a good example.

 

Should be a lot easier to do in UDMF format, I think. But I know nothing about that. 

[Malurek]

19 minutes ago, El Inferno said:

 

MUSINFO allows to do this in basically any sourceport (prb+, crispy, ...). Up to 63 different songs is possible inside one map! The only limitation is that the only way to switch the music is by stepping on a certain sector (so, say, you cannot do this using voodoo-dolls, as far as I know). Ancient Aliens map 1 is a good example.

 

Should be a lot easier to do in UDMF format, I think. But I know nothing about that. 

Ok so in other words, the floor in the room of the area switch will change the music then.  Tks.

[Malurek]

A complete box is 65,535 by 65,535 by 65,535, by 65,535, in Doom Builder 2.

 

If some of these WADs out here can house hundreds upon hundreds of mobs, would something like this have ro act like DOOM 64?  Where some levels have alot of enemues, but small levels, and some have a few enemy placements, but level size is bigger?  For the sake of the N64's power?

 

I would think, theoretically, modern computers, with a base 8 gigs of DDR 4, 9/10 clock speed, (the system in seargents marks question is a lot smaller), should be more than capable of handling a sprawling continuous hub set of maps or even a continuous map cut into sections, as a pseudo.

 

What I've noticed that stresses my system out, is when there is alot of sprite details on screen, considering the lag crawls I had encountered before blood and gib count was reduced, as well as however my computer worked itself out in barrels o fun in BD on maps of Chaos with Hoover's HD and my other mods, (im still not sure how that happened).

 

So would this also take into account capacity handling, when geaphics, enemy count, animations, blood and fib amount, sprite detail etc?  Would something like tjis be more suited for base DOOM 2 graphics?

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Malurek

[P41R47]

2 minutes ago, Malurek said:

To be a true open world, i don't think the source port is the issue, (although yall know more about this then I do.  I really should experiment more with map making).  But to elaborate on seargen marks questions, (i don't have any of the details he's asking about), but a complete box, is 65,535 by 65,535 by 65,535, by 65,535, in Doom Builder 2.

 

If some of these WADs out here can house hundreds upon hundreds of mobs, would something like this have ro act like DOOM 64?  Where some levels have alot of enemues, but small levels, and some have a dew enemy placements, but level size is bigger?  For the sake of the N64's power?

 

I would think, theoretically, modern computers, with a base 8 gigs of DDR 4, 9/10 clock speed, (the system in seargents marks question is a lot smaller), should be more than capable of handling a sprawling continuous hub map, or even a continuous map cut into sections, as a pseudo.

 

 

emmm no.
You are kinda overthinking it.

There are examples out there of what you are already seeking.

Just buy The Original Strife: Veteran Edition, play it, is a vanilla openworld rpg on the doom engine, and then download Strife: Absolute Order and load Strife on GZDoom along it.

The original Strife is pretty big, offers tons of replayability and exploration and it was designed for computers that had DOS and just 512MB of ram at max.

So, if that was done on a computer from 1996, imagine what could be done now.

 

Map measurement are not important, but if you talk about GZDoom, the problem are the dynamic lights and visual effects like reflective floor or so. Those are the ones that could hinder and make the maps lag.

But if you desactivate those effects, you could play normally without problem, almost.

Aside from that, reading this thread made me wonder, so here is my own question:
@Edward850 since Strife use vanilla doom format for making it maps, and special designed lines to connect the different maps, it is possible to exceed the 32 maps limit on vanilla strife?
I know you guys exceed it on the Veteran Edition with the new sidequest, but it is possible on Strife to exceed it?
Probably yes as Veteran Edition is based on Chocolate Strife, right?

[Malurek]

If DOOM Builder 2 encounters an issue, and can not build the nodes, (although I can still play test it), where does Windows save the map?

[Edward850]

35 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

@Edward850 since Strife use vanilla doom format for making it maps, and special designed lines to connect the different maps, it is possible to exceed the 32 maps limit on vanilla strife?
I know you guys exceed it on the Veteran Edition with the new sidequest, but it is possible on Strife to exceed it?
Probably yes as Veteran Edition is based on Chocolate Strife, right?

Almost. Level exit triggers can go to any number referenced by the line tag, seemingly. There's still a couple of static references in the original Strife code (that persists in Chocolate Strife) that expect the number of levels to be static, the level title most notably. Exceed the number of predefined levels and the level name will be read beyond bounds.

In Strife:VE we obviously just increased this array, however we also made it so that name is defaulted if it exceeds the list, which might have been the only actual problem given there seems to be no actual static list for the levels themselves. You can technically swap to any level past that between 0 to 99, though there may still be some unexpected (but non-critical) behaviours with that, I noticed the used music lump has some curious behaviours.

 

20 minutes ago, Malurek said:

If DOOM Builder 2 encounters an issue, and can not build the nodes, (although I can still play test it), where does Windows save the map?

Windows has nothing to do with it. Aside from that, Doom Builder still saves the level exactly where you told it to go, just without nodes.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Edward850

[Devalaous]

I thought the map limit was 35, not 32? Many vanilla releases go up to 35, with 33 to 35 being used to house outtakes, cut maps, or bonus maps.

[P41R47]

15 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Almost. Level exit triggers can go to any number referenced by the line tag, seemingly. There's still a couple of static references in the original Strife code (that persists in Chocolate Strife) that expect the number of levels to be static, the level title most notably. Exceed the number of predefined levels and the level name will be read beyond bounds.

In Strife:VE we obviously just increased this array, however we also made it so that name is defaulted if it exceeds the list, which might have been the only actual problem given there seems to be no actual static list for the levels themselves. You can technically swap to any level past that between 0 to 99, though there may still be some unexpected (but non-critical) behaviours with that, I noticed the used music lump has some curious behaviours.

oh great, those are excellent news, thanks for sharing the info :D

Aside from that, i'm trying to play the Strife maps that Kaiser made backthen, Return of the Order and Day of The Acolyte, with Veteran Edition.

Since draw and drop didn't worked, i tried with a batch file, but it crashed when the map started; music starts, but then VE crash. :/
Supposely, those maps are for limit removing source ports, maybe thats making VE crash?
 

[Edward850]

42 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Since draw and drop didn't worked, i tried with a batch file, but it crashed when the map started; music starts, but then VE crash. :/
Supposely, those maps are for limit removing source ports, maybe thats making VE crash?

I believe I explained the last time that you brought it up that you must be using the original software renderer, due to the fact that these maps will lack glnodes and lightmaps.

[P41R47]

3 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I believe I explained the last time that you brought it up that you must be using the original software renderer, due to the fact that these maps will lack glnodes and lightmaps.

i'm using the software renderer?

Thats the high quality setting turned off on the basic setting, right?

 

It still crash :/

[Edward850]

4 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

i'm using the software renderer?

Thats the high quality setting turned off on the basic setting, right?

 

It still crash :/

Not sure then. They may not be ordinary limit removing mods. kaiser_13_b.wad appears to work fine however.