Was the Pain Elemental a good idea?

[volleyvalley]

I think the Pain Elemental was a great idea. As annoying they can be sometimes, they are undoubtedly great space deniers when used right, case in point: Plutonia - MAP13: "The Crypt"

[BeachThunder]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:35 PM, DoomPlayer00 said:

Yes. Pain Elementals are almost like an alternate flying version of Arch-vile to me. Not necessarily a huge threat when alone but a high priority target in larger fights as they'll restrict your movement and force you to waste more ammo the longer you keep them around.

Have you played REKKR? There's actually an enemy that both flies and revives other enemies.

[0x00]

they can be a little annoying but they're cute :)

[espilka]

Annoying, but perfect for their part.

[Cutman 999]

No, pain elementals were never good to the game. Mostly is the "oh, if i don't cheese this monster, it punishes me spawning a trillion enemies and gulping my ammo". Not to say that mappers had never found ways of using the pain elemental effectively in combat, is just that as a stand alone enemy, or is extremely one dimensional to kill thanks to it doing nothing more than just spawning lost souls, or enables bullshit scenarios that hinders combat flow. 

 

Id even had to put a fucking enemy cap in the game, thanks to how poorly designed it is.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Cutman 999

[OniriA]

I see nothing wrong with the Pain Elemental, he's looking fine as it is.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by OniriA

[Naarok0fkor]

[Fonze]

Pain elementals go great with a side of rockets! 😄💥❤️❤️

[Maribo]

1 hour ago, Cutman 999 said:

Not to say that mappers had never found ways of using the pain elemental effectively in combat, is just that as a stand alone enemy, or is extremely one dimensional to kill thanks to it doing nothing more than just spawning lost souls, or enables bullshit scenarios that hinders combat flow.

More one-dimensional than the multiple flavors of "imp and bigger imp", or "hitscanner and tankier hitscanner" that the game has? The fact that it shoots projectiles that stick around (and that you can blow yourself up on) after impacting a surface already gives it more depth than them at bare minimum.

[plums]

Fun tip for vanilla/limit-removing maps: You can make a dehacked patch that copies the lost soul into another thing, such as the dead lost soul "corpse," and use those in your map to place lost souls that don't count against the limit of what the Pain Elemental can create. (They will fall to the ground as they die though.) Here's an example map! Feel free to use.

https://user.fm/files/v2-5c095b28b22f407f431b1e8dec59d7e1/lspain.wad

Edited September 2, 2023 by plums

[BUYXRAYS]

To be honest, they are usually annoying. But I think the pain elemental is a great enemy. So in my opinion, they are only good if there is a pain elemental. Otherwise, I hate them

[ryiron]

2 hours ago, Cutman 999 said:

Not to say that mappers had never found ways of using the pain elemental effectively in combat, is just that as a stand alone enemy, or is extremely one dimensional to kill thanks to it doing nothing more than just spawning lost souls, or enables bullshit scenarios that hinders combat flow. 

 

In the words of Eames from Inception: you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger darling. There's loads of ways to make even standalone pain-elementals interesting from a combat perspective. Some fun ideas off the top of my head:

• Give the player just a rocket launcher, chainsaw or berserk.
• Lock the player in a cramped, awkward space with the meatball.
• Release the pain-elemental at a distance or height that lets it spawn a bunch of souls before the player can easily get to it.
• Confine the pain-elemental to an area that has hurt floors, giving the player the option of taking damage to deal with it, or letting it go nuts spawning souls.
• Place them in dark areas. You can always see the lost souls, but the pain-elementals only show up when they fire.
• Add some platforming. Make the player do some dancing.
• Do some silly nonsense with boom wind effects or sticky floors to make avoiding the souls harder.
• Silent teleport an already alert one in behind the player. Surprise lost souls to the back of the head.
• Monster only teleport lines. Chase that meatball.

[maxmanium]

Yes

[Kinetic]

pain elementals are sick, i love the sounds they make

[Lila Feuer]

PE's are a good interesting monster and D2 would be a worse game if they weren't in it.

[gibfrag]

I never understood how people find the lost souls to be annoying, overpowered, or difficult. Why would Id have waited until after the shareware to introduce a super weak enemy that so many think it should’ve been?
 

It has always seemed that the lost soul was meant to be on the same level as the pink demon in strength and not meant to be a weak former human like enemy, and even initially was more of a hitscanner during development, which I’m sure everyone that moans about hitscanners would be calling them more difficult than chaingunners had they remained as such. They were never meant to be that low tier as people think they are just because it’s a skull. 
 

With that said, I think pain elementals make a lot of sense and are a great addition, and make use of the lost soul in a cool way. It seems the idea existed before but was going to have them launch from walls. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by gibfrag

[Cutman 999]

12 hours ago, Maribo said:

More one-dimensional than the multiple flavors of "imp and bigger imp", or "hitscanner and tankier hitscanner" that the game has? The fact that it shoots projectiles that stick around (and that you can blow yourself up on) after impacting a surface already gives it more depth than them at bare minimum.

A least "imp and bigger imp" or "hitscanner and tankier hitscanner" can be used in multiple roles as projectile spaming enemies, that thing is just a false equivalence that try to undermine how much you can use enemies in combat. 

[Cutman 999]

11 hours ago, ryiron said:

 

• Release the pain-elemental at a distance or height that lets it spawn a bunch of souls before the player can easily get to it.
• Add some platforming. Make the player do some dancing.
• Do some silly nonsense with boom wind effects or sticky floors to make avoiding the souls harder.

This are really good examples of how pain elementals could be used goodly, others you point out i see them as either flawed and easily cheese, or just dismiss the point.

 

Quote

• Give the player just a rocket launcher, chainsaw or berserk.
• Lock the player in a cramped, awkward space with the meatball.

That wouldn't actually make them easy to not engage with? Pain elementals stop spawning lost souls when you are extremely close to them, so in cramp fights like the ones you use pinkys and hell knights for example, they'll do absolutely nothing. That's what i mean, in most "conventional" encounters, you either cheese them like that, or they fuck you over just making a wave of annoying enemies.