What is the oldest wad that you think holds up to a modern standard?

[Astronomical]

While many wads were released early on, it never seems that any of the wads from that period were remembered fondly.  I'd be interested in seeing what is the earliest well designed wad.  Note I mean unofficial wads not Final doom or any other Iwads

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Plank_Guy_89
To clarify meaning

[SLOTH MARINE (CB)]

Just now, Plank_Guy_89 said:

While many wads were released early on, it never seems that any of the wads from that period were remembered fondly.  I'd be interested in seeing what is the earliest well designed wad.

probably plutiona 

[Astronomical]

Just now, SLOTH MARINE (CB) said:

probably plutiona  

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to unofficial wads.

[SLOTH MARINE (CB)]

Just now, Plank_Guy_89 said:

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to unofficial wads.

Sector 666 from 1998 by skillsaw.

[Astronomical]

1 minute ago, SLOTH MARINE (CB) said:

Sector 666 from 1998 by skillsaw.

I had no clue SkillSaw was around that long.  Interesting.

[SLOTH MARINE (CB)]

Just now, Plank_Guy_89 said:

I had no clue SkillSaw was around that long.  Interesting.

well he made sector 666 in 1998 then took a hiatus then came back.

here is his doom wiki page 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Paul_DeBruyne_(skillsaw)

[TheMightyHeracross]

The earliest WAD that most people will agree really holds up to modern standards is probably Scythe (2003). Scythe 2 (2005) is probably the first WAD that actually could go toe-to-toe with modern Cacoward-winner megawads like Valiant, Eviternity, or Ancient Aliens. There's a reason Erik Alm was the first person to win an Espi for his mapping influence.

Edited June 4, 2021 by TheMightyHeracross

[VoanHead]

I really loved Perdition's Gate by Tom Mustaine. He made it w/ his dad which is kinda sweet if you ask me. It's difficulty is on par with Evilution, but the map designs are waaaaaaaay better.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

Arguably Memento Mori, released in 1995. The fact it's still commonly played in Zandronum to this day is a testament of it's quality.

[Nevander]

I found Memento Mori 2 to be pretty high quality maps, on par with modest modern levels.

[I Drink Lava]

What exactly do you mean by "modern standard"?

 

If you're referring to "obscene amounts of detail", then the answer is obviously Gothic99.

 

If you're referring to "ludicrous amounts of enemies in one map", the H2H Mud competition maps are right up your alley.

 

But if you're referring to "competent design without any notable mapping mistakes", then there are actually a lot of maps I'd say fit the bill. The oldest stand-out map I can think of might be OPOST21.WAD from May 10th, 1994, although IIRC it has mandatory secrets and confusing progression that is most certainly not up to modern standards. I feel like good Doom WADs are timeless, and it's part of why we're all still here 27 years later.

[roadworx]

40 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Arguably Memento Mori, released in 1995. The fact it's still commonly played in Zandronum to this day is a testament of it's quality.

???

memento mori absolutely did not hold up to modern standards. it's good, incredible for its time, and i do personally like it, but that's because i like older stuff. to say that something with mandatory secrets, unmarked doors, death traps, and inconsistent theming holds up to modern standards is silly. the reason it's still played so frequently on zandronum is because it's one of the best wads made specifically for co-op out there, mainly because wads made specifically with co-op in mind aren't exactly the most common thing in the world.

 

that being said, the first one that truly holds up to modern standards both in looks and gameplay is probably dark covenant, which came out before mm2 - at least, for the most part. it still does have its shitty, outdated areas, but overall it's still pretty damn good even today. either that or doomsday.wad, although i'd say that's really in looks only.

Edited June 4, 2021 by roadworx

[Mayomancer]

Depending on your definition of 'modern standards' it could be a variety of different things. Considering only the megawads, i think i'll second Memento Mori, not quite there but 'holds up' would be a fair statement. Difficulty wise, maybe Hell Revealed. Scythe 2 is also very relevant for modern mapping i guess?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Mayomancer

[Reelvonic]

Doom.wad

 

 

 

 

or maybe Zombie Heart of Death idk

[Dark Pulse]

I enjoyed STRAIN. That's, what, 1997?

 

I like how a few of the levels "call back" to each other, too. MAP18 begins in the same hall as MAP17, but you go the opposite way. You then visit the corridor that overlooks the area in MAP22. Finally in MAP24, you actually use a teleporter that becomes activated in the hall.

[FEDEX]

1 hour ago, Nevander said:

I found Memento Mori 2 to be pretty high quality maps, on par with modest modern levels.

I really love "junkie smack" the midi from map 29, alexander 'eternal' used it in Frozen Time :)

[rampancy]

requiem, eternal doom

Edited June 4, 2021 by rampancy

[baja blast rd.]

BTSX holds up amazingly well, considering that it was released in 1993. 

[Not Jabba]

I thought about this for a while one time, and I think I decided it was Kama Sutra. There are a handful of wads made before that that I like a lot, but it's the oldest thing that I personally think would be well loved and competitive if it were released now. Maybe Grove or Vrack 3, but they'd be more niche. People would definitely *like* Scythe, but assuming the timeline of Doom releases wasn't too altered by being in an alternate universe, its direct competitors would be so much stronger. (though I have to admit I've never been a huge Scythe fan, and could be totally wrong about that).

 

Darkening 2 also holds up very well.

[Jacek Bourne]

Scythe 2.

[Murdoch]

"Modern standards" is a fairly vague target.

[pcorf]

UAC Dead, Galaxia ,666, 777, UAC Pen, Cringe, Slaughter Till Death.

[Steve D]

I'll second @pcorf's choice of UAC_Dead, which I always thought was a pretty fun map, so it wasn't just the cool sector tricks that thrilled me. And I still believe that its invisible staircase is the most awesome and beautiful thing I've ever "seen" in a Doom map, and that's really all about the atmosphere and the composition of the whole area. And to think that this is Leo Martin Lim's only Doom map. One and done and remembered forever. Not bad.

 

Speaking of atmosphere, how about 1995's Osiris? I contend that it has generally strong gameplay throughout and quite good architecture and texturing.

 

Anyone who knows me can predict what's coming next. So, there was this guy named Michael Krause, who did these enormous maps that IMO presaged the modern era. He released 16 maps between 1996 and 2000, including absolute masterpieces -- IMO -- with his 1998 maps Moon 2000 and Run Buddy. His crowning achievement is probably 2000's Dark Star, a massive, dark and moody techbase which, if released today, would probably be quite well received. 

 

That brings a question to my mind. Is there a generally agreed-upon time when we can say that "modern mapping" began?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Steve D

[roadworx]

26 minutes ago, Steve D said:

That brings a question to my mind. Is there a generally agreed-upon time when we can say that "modern mapping" began?

first of all YOU'RE BACK :OOO

 

secondly, i'd say that it probably started in the mid-2000s with the release of things like scythe 2, the mucus flow, and suspended in dusk. i feel like the the foundations of modern mapping were made during that time period.

[Doomkid]

Has no one mentioned Alien Vendetta? I think it would have received acclaim above even that of Akeldama if it had somehow never been released til, say, 2019/2020.

 

(I only picked Akeldama because it's a modern wad that has similar sensibilities to AV, although I think AV is still probably just a teensy bit better on the whole, mainly because it takes less time to complete start to finish.)

 

While I wouldn't say it's an exact dividing point, pre-2000 and post-2000 does seem to be a pretty decent way to break up "wad eras". Doing it by decade makes enough sense, right?

Edited June 4, 2021 by Doomkid

[Valboom]

-Dark Covenant

-The Darkening episode 2

-Requiem (wonderful soundtrack)

-Memento Mori 2 (idem)

 

 

[Helm]

V I L E  F L E S H 

[adamastor]

Mordeth.

 

Seriously now, The Darkening is a great candidate but the one that really holds up to modern standards for me is AV.

[T-Rex]

Requiem, Eternal Doom, and Alien Vendetta. No one could ever imagine those maps were designed at the years they were released.

[cannonball]

There are some maps in Eternal Doom/Alien Vendetta that would easily hold up today, however there are many others that wouldn’t. For a cohesive package I think the Darkening Episode 2 is probably the earliest that could easily fit into today’s releases. Not bad for a wad that is over 20 years old.