What is the oldest wad that you think holds up to a modern standard?

[Steve D]

2 hours ago, roadworx said:

first of all YOU'RE BACK :OOO

 

Thanks! Methinks someone's been talkin'. ;)

 

And thanks also for answering my question. I missed all that when it happened. :D

[Andromeda]

Yeah, another vote for Memento Mori here. Probably the first megawad to match (or even exceed) the quality of the IWADs, which was no small feat at the time.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Andromeda

[ReaperAA]

2 hours ago, cannonball said:

There are some maps in Eternal Doom/Alien Vendetta that would easily hold up today, however there are many others that wouldn’t. For a cohesive package I think the Darkening Episode 2 is probably the earliest that could easily fit into today’s releases. Not bad for a wad that is over 20 years old.

 

^This, pretty much.

[ReaperAA]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

Yeah, another vote for Memento Mori here. Probably the first megawad to match (or even exceed) the quality of the IWADs, which was no small feat at the time.

 

Nah. MM1 doesn't really match the quality of the iwads (except maybe TNT) in my opinion.

[continuum.mid]

Hmm. I guess I can't think of a WAD prior to the already mentioned Alien Vendetta that is completely free of things that make me go "yeah, this is an old WAD." The levels in there feel very modern in every design aspect. Plutonia was pretty modern too (by virtue of basically creating the modern WAD) but it's disqualified explicitly so...

 

The Unholy Trinity is the 1994 WAD that aged the best in my view (yes, that is counting UAC_DEAD) but it's also very much of its time, with its clunky layout and monster placement. I also nearly mentioned Perdition's Gate, but it likewise has weird, of-its-time map layouts.

Edited June 4, 2021 by northivanastan

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

11 hours ago, roadworx said:

???

memento mori absolutely did not hold up to modern standards. it's good, incredible for its time, and i do personally like it, but that's because i like older stuff. to say that something with mandatory secrets, unmarked doors, death traps, and inconsistent theming holds up to modern standards is silly. the reason it's still played so frequently on zandronum is because it's one of the best wads made specifically for co-op out there, mainly because wads made specifically with co-op in mind aren't exactly the most common thing in the world.

 

that being said, the first one that truly holds up to modern standards both in looks and gameplay is probably dark covenant, which came out before mm2 - at least, for the most part. it still does have its shitty, outdated areas, but overall it's still pretty damn good even today. either that or doomsday.wad, although i'd say that's really in looks only.

Looking at what's being played in Zandronum in real time is a way to look at things with a more analytic and unbiased perspective rather than just dumping your personal opinions about what you like or you dislike about it.

I see things this way: People still look at the vast options of megawads to play today, and some of them prefer to play, or replay, this one from 1995. This is a phenomenon that I can't observe with any other big wad from 1995 or 1994.

[Deadwing]

I would say Scythe, but I've only played it when it was released.

But bite-sized quick-action maps work well even nowadays.

[roadworx]

20 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Looking at what's being played in Zandronum in real time is a way to look at things with a more analytic and unbiased perspective rather than just dumping your personal opinions about what you like or you dislike about it.

pointing out the fact that something contains quite a bit of outdated level design that's nearly universally looked down upon nowadays - thus not living up to modern standards, which is what the op is asking - isn't dumping my personal opinion. in fact, i literally said that i like the wad but it's still outdated despite that. it was the first thing in my post, so i'm not entirely sure how you missed that.

 

also, how tf is what people play on zandronum representative of quality?? i guess this means that chillax, despite being a bunch of plagiarized maps lazily slapped together, is somehow a well-crafted wad. gotcha.

 

20 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I see things this way: People still look at the vast options of megawads to play today, and some of them prefer to play, or replay, this one from 1995. This is a phenomenon that I can't observe with any other big wad from 1995 or 1994.

except fava beans...the unholy trinity...everything by the innocent crew...etc

Edited June 4, 2021 by roadworx

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

3 minutes ago, roadworx said:

pointing out the fact that something contains quite a bit of outdated level design that's nearly universally looked down upon nowadays - thus not living up to modern standards, which is what the op is asking

You completely missed the point of the methodology I used to determine what is "to live up to modern standards". Read my last post again, now this time, please make an effort to understand what I am saying instead of just trying to be a contrarian.
 

Quote

except fava beans...the unholy trinity...everything by the innocent crew...etc

And which one of them have comparable length to Memento Mori and can be witnessed being played on a regular basis?

[Final Verdict]

Where is the love for Alien Vendetta? I have only seen it mentioned once or twice here.

 

I think AV has held up fairly well in my opinion. 

 

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

 

While I wouldn't say it's an exact dividing point, pre-2000 and post-2000 does seem to be a pretty decent way to break up "wad eras". Doing it by decade makes enough sense, right?

 

 

Lets face it though, we both secretly know that MM I & II and AV were the best ever made. But we'll let the younglings have their fun.

 

Sarcasm aside, that's exactly what I do. I separate them by the decade they were made in, it gives them a fair shake and I think it makes a more balanced list. I have a category for top Wads in the 90's, 00 and the last 10 years. Each Wad is compared only to other Wads within that decade.

 

There's a good reason for this, mappers had access to more archaic tools back then and some tricks of the trade had not yet been discovered. It's exactly why Alien Vendetta stands out as holding up quite well in this regard.

 

Just my view on it though and it's not the only one that holds up well, everyone has their own method.

 

[roadworx]

21 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

You completely missed the point of the methodology I used to determine what is "to live up to modern standards". Read my last post again, now this time, please make an effort to understand what I am saying instead of just trying to be a contrarian.

...i'm a contrarian because i think the original memento mori is outdated, but still good. gotcha. you realize that doesn't mean i'm saying it's bad, right? it was objectively good for its time and despite not aging the best, it still holds up to some degree and it's still worth playing. that's not contrary to popular opinion like, at all.

 

i will admit that interpreting what the question is asking in the first place will vary from person to person, but when someone asks "I'd be interested in seeing what is the earliest well designed wad" in regards to modern mapping conventions, it's fairly safe to assume that they're asking about level design. not the popularity, and not how many people on zandronum are playing it; it's asking about the actual design of the wad itself. popularity isn't a great indicator of if something is well-designed or not - chillax is a perfect example of this. it is, again, a shitty mapset comprised solely of plagiarized maps with a bunch of monster added in at random, but is popular because people like killing hordes of monsters with friends.

 

26 minutes ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

And which one of them have comparable length to Memento Mori and can be witnessed being played on a regular basis?

you got me there, they all have less than 20 levels and aren't as popular as memento mori - although memento mori is kinda the only 32-map megawad from 1995 that isn't on the more obscure side.

 

27 minutes ago, Final Verdict said:

Where is the love for Alien Vendetta? I have only seen it mentioned once or twice here.

 

I think AV has held up fairly well in my opinion.

i really wanted to mention alien vendetta cuz i love it, but...there's earlier stuff that's really good too...

[Omniarch]

32 minutes ago, Final Verdict said:

Where is the love for Alien Vendetta?

I was wondering the same thing myself. Though, admittedly, the whole idea of a specific set of 'modern standards' is questionable in and of itself.

 

Certainly, blockbuster megawads like Ancient Aliens, BTSX, Eviternity and Valiant have solidified a number of trends and expectations over the past half-decade. Of these, a few in particular stand out to me: semi-orthagonal or naturalistic geometry, polished colour-coordinated texture-schemes, a mix of free-form and encounter-based combat, complex rythmnic midis hand-picked to match the tempo of the combat and an emphasis on clear, logical progression.

 

If one was to judge older wads by how closely they align with these 'values', then pretty much all wads made before 2011 would fall short, with the possible exception of Scythe 2, which laid the groundwork on which the modern megawad was built.

 

Of course, this is a very narrow way of defining 'modern standards', but in broadening the term one risks stripping it of all meaning. For sure, there is an overarching feeling of 'modernity' to many noteworthy sets released in the last decade (just look at DTWiD, which, despite its intentions, bares little resemblence to the original Doom), but it is decidedly ephemeral and hard to pin down.

 

Perhaps it has something to do with the sheer quality of modern tools, or maybe today's 'trendsetters' are just more experienced than their forebears. Most likely, it is a combination of the above.

 

Additionally, one can't forget the fact that the community has simply grown in size over the last six years. More monkeys + more typewriters = more good shit (and just more shit in general). And since media of all varieties tends to sort itself into a quality pyramid, a broader base typically results in a higher peak.

[GarrettChan]

More people are still playing something doesn't mean that thing is good. Therefore, using the amount of people playing something is not an analytic way to say something is good or living up their standards.

 

It's just how people react to things without too much thought in it, or they are just left out.

 

On the other hand, there's no actual way to define modern standard without your personal favor in it, so I don't really see the point of all these debates.

Edited June 4, 2021 by GarrettChan

[Vorpal]

Gonna jump on the Osiris train here, I play it like twice a year still and it never gets old

[roadworx]

1 minute ago, Vorpal said:

Gonna jump on the Osiris train here, I play it like twice a year still and it never gets old

that really is a great one - i just recently played it for the first time and was stunned at how good it looks and plays, even today

[Nine Inch Heels]

Don't really like the idea of invoking "standards", but my pick would have to be "Speed of Doom"...

 

As for the argument that Memento Mori is still being played today, and how reflective the numbers are when it comes to how well it held up: The numbers don't tell you, or anybody, why people still play it today... What makes you think people aren't playing it specifically because it's not modern..? Did you never think to yourself that you want to go back to some old game to get some nostalgia vibes going? Or what if you saw people talk about some old WAD you played in your early days - did you never think to yourself "those were the days, perhaps I'll boot it up later today"..?

 

Anyway.. Don't be so eager to use statistics to support your argument, because how you interpret the numbers is, quite often, 100% subjective...

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Translation (by Google):

 

What is the oldest wad that you think holds up to YOUR PERSONAL modern standard?

 

You see, there is no objective "modern standard" when it comes to Doom WADs. We don't have legal and unbiased agencies that go around testing WADs like they're the new 2021 Honda Accord.

Therefore, the only modern standard is your own. To me, Memento Mori holds up to my modern standards. Unmarked doors? Death pits? Inconsistent visual themes? I enjoy abstract shit, so I still enjoy Memento Mori, even though I only played it a few years ago.

 

Would the rest of the community still enjoy it if it was released today? I don't know, I'm not the community.

 

[[[But if I had to guess, I don't even think Scythe 2 would go over completely well with the community today, considering the fact that I've heard the following complaints dozens of times:

 

-Annoying custom enemy

-Ridiculously misleading difficulty in the first half

-Maps released later on that people didn't like

-Poorly implemented difficulties that do next to nothing to make maps easier]]]

Edited June 5, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan
Honda/Hyundai

[Redneckerz]

Doom Extra-Hard was so ahead of its time, it inspired The Sky May Be, lilith.pk3 and Brutal Doom.

[Teo Slayer]

Both Scyhte and Scythe 2

[DisgruntledPorcupine]

It still boggles my mind how long ago Alien Vendetta was released. It feels so far ahead of its time from a gameplay perspective.

[Biz!]

Eternal Doom

[jazzmaster9]

For me it has to be Scythe II, to this day is still very fun to play and looks Visually impressive.

[NuMetalManiak]

The Evil Unleashed - Fun 1994 episode replacement with slaughter-lite gameplay.

[MFG38]

Not Memento Mori.

 

Leaning towards Alien Vendetta.

[roadworx]

1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

Doom Extra-Hard was so ahead of its time, it inspired The Sky May Be, lilith.pk3 and Brutal Doom.

ouch

[ax34]

doom2.wad

[Fadri]

Origwad.

[roadworx]

16 minutes ago, Fadri said:

Origwad.

incorrect

[The BMFG]

16 hours ago, rd. said:

BTSX holds up amazingly well, considering that it was released in 1993. 

wait btsx was made in 1993?

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Just now, The BMFG said:

wait btsx was made in 1993?

In 1993, 37 years from now :}