What is the oldest wad that you think holds up to a modern standard?

[Fadri]

10 minutes ago, roadworx said:

incorrect

 

My standards are still pretty low even for the current era. :3

[roadworx]

17 minutes ago, The BMFG said:

wait btsx was made in 1993?

yes, essel brought everyone back in time to 1993 and forced them to create the levels for btsx by writing the data onto the floppy disks with nothing but their bare hands

Edited June 4, 2021 by roadworx

[Astronomical]

2 minutes ago, roadworx said:

yes, essel brought everyone back in time to 1993 and forced them to create the levels for btsx by writing the data onto the floppy disks with nothing but their bare hands 

I'd believe it

[esselfortium]

 

30 minutes ago, roadworx said:

yes, essel brought everyone back in time to 1993 and forced them to create the levels for btsx by writing the data onto the floppy disks with nothing but their bare hands

No, you're thinking of SpaceDM5 which was created in 1977.

[dew]

8 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Looking at what's being played in Zandronum in real time is a way to look at things with a more analytic and unbiased perspective rather than just dumping your personal opinions about what you like or you dislike about it.

I looked. I saw mm being loaded in one populated server. With Brutal Doom. That's, like, a direct repudiation of your point, heh.

 

MM may be popular with certain crowds, but it's almost an encyclopedic definition of what's written in the thread title, no matter what spin you personally put on it. MM, like Eternal Doom, often uses sensibilities of 90's crpgs in its layouts - and that means mazes and switchhunts. "But I like it, and so do these people currently playing it," I hear you clamor. Well, have you considered your personal opinions, and theirs, aren't compatible with modern standards?

[Michael Jensen]

18 minutes ago, dew said:

MM, like Eternal Doom, often uses sensibilities of 90's crpgs in its layouts - and that means mazes and switchhunts. "But I like it, and so do these people currently playing it," I hear you clamor. Well, have you considered your personal opinions, and theirs, aren't compatible with modern standards?

Wouldn't that be classed as a genre of maps/style of mapping, rather than a quality standard? 

Edited June 4, 2021 by A.H. Sankhatayan

[Decay]

8 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Looking at what's being played in Zandronum in real time is a way to look at things with a more analytic and unbiased perspective rather than just dumping your personal opinions about what you like or you dislike about it.

I see things this way: People still look at the vast options of megawads to play today, and some of them prefer to play, or replay, this one from 1995. This is a phenomenon that I can't observe with any other big wad from 1995 or 1994.

Zandronum has never been known for it's taste though... maybe bad taste.

 

Plenty of examples of wads that are still played consistently due to nostalgia and old guards gatekeeping, Dwango5 being a prime example. It's all about what servers are up, who follows you, and what certain people play. It has very little to do with whether or not the quality holds up today.

 

Hot edit: Plus, if Zandronum's playerbase was indicative of anything, Hdoom being the top downloaded wad on Best-ever/TSPG for years is really saying something

Edited June 4, 2021 by Decay

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

8 minutes ago, Decay said:

Hdoom being the top downloaded wad on Best-ever/TSPG for years is really saying something, it's my favorite wad of all time and still holds up under scrutiny *blows wad* even after all these years. 

 

Hell yeah, I agree with you there! 

Edited June 4, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Noiser]

In my opinion, there's no such a thing as "modern standard" (in a sense of "new" being superior to "old") because that's a subjective matter. And that's coming from someone who loves Valiant to death, probably my favorite wad ever.

That said - one of the first wads that incorporated what I see as "modern" was Plutonia (set-pieces, arena combat), Suspended in Dusk (material texturing) and Scythe 2 (consistent episodes, custom enemies, 'run and gun' emphasis). But that's just my own vague idea of what a "modern wad" is or tend to be, not a set in stone definition. You don't need to limit yourself to preconceived models, it's not healthy for your creativity.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Noiser

[Steve D]

7 hours ago, Final Verdict said:

Sarcasm aside, that's exactly what I do. I separate them by the decade they were made in, it gives them a fair shake and I think it makes a more balanced list. I have a category for top Wads in the 90's, 00 and the last 10 years. Each Wad is compared only to other Wads within that decade.

 

There's a good reason for this, mappers had access to more archaic tools back then and some tricks of the trade had not yet been discovered. It's exactly why Alien Vendetta stands out as holding up quite well in this regard.

 

Another big difference for modern mappers is the quality and technological sophistication of playtesting as compared to the past.

 

My view may be somewhat skewed, because back in the '90s I played Doom on Macs. It worked fine except that MacDoom was unable to record or play demos, thus MacDoomers were limited to text-based critique. It might have been different on the PC side, but I'm not personally aware of how often PC Doomers used demos as a visual aid in critiquing maps.

 

Nowadays we also have YouTube videos and Twitch livestreams, allowing mappers to get a variety of opinions from several quality players/mappers. Also, watching a playtest, I can sometimes feel when things are getting sloggy. I can also report that, from time to time, I've made massive changes based on comments made in livestreams, in some cases quite general comments. Also, when you have numerous playtests instead of relying on one playtester's opinion, it's more of a community thing, thus you begin to adopt community standards -- for good or bad, but IMO, mostly for the good. None of this was possible for MacDoomers back in the '90s, and I'm guessing that PC Doomers often had very limited playtesting, if any.

[Muusi]

Alien Vendetta but that's too easy an answer. Does NeoDoom count? It was great.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Muusi

[Doomkid]

Anyone in this thread acting like any potential take on this question is in any way objective will be staying after class. You do not know what objectivity means.

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure. The entire idea that there's a "modern standard" to begin with is subjective - most of us have a somewhat agreed upon idea of what constitutes "good design, bad design, old design, new design" but this is not set in stone and everyone's ideas on it are going to be subtly or sometimes wildly different.

 

There is no such thing as an objectively good or objectively bad... anything. You can say more people tend to like one thing and more people tend to dislike another thing - you can say "Objectively, 80% of the people I know of liked this more than that", but that's only a judge of popularity. The way in which a piece of art speaks to a particular person can not be quantified in this fashion.

 

Just throwing it out there because some people seem to think it's possible that some things are "objectively worse" than other things. It's not possible, opinions are not facts!

[roadworx]

9 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Anyone in this thread acting like any potential take on this question is in any way objective will be staying after class. You do not know what objectivity means.

sorry, mr. kid 😔

[Tarnsman]

Scythe 2 by virtue of it still being the most widely emulated and featuring the broadest appeal of many of the classics while containing the least of facets that have fallen out of favor.

 

Alternatively whatever the majority of people say in response to this question as they're deeming it to have held up, thus establishing the standard that is being judged against.

 

P.S. bring back some of that 90s bullshit in modern mapping.

[Doomkid]

6 minutes ago, roadworx said:

sorry, mr. kid 😔

I just don't know why things like this ever have to become sources of controversy, lol. I think most players have a rough idea of what constitutes "modern sensibilities" = they mean a more streamlined approach to Doom: less mandatory secrets, less narrow passages, with more mind paid to how colors work together and visual cohesiveness. That's a good way to generally describe it, I think.

 

I just don't feel we should act like those (irritating, shitty, outdated) mapping tropes are objectively worse, because a number of people out there love that shit. That's all - not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here in particular!

Edited June 5, 2021 by Doomkid

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

12 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Da cold hard troof

This, the only "objective standard" there is when it comes to a wad is whether or not it works properly on a technical level.

 

Anything that cannot be measured on a technical level is subject to opinion.

[Juza]

Definitely agree with almost all the suggestions in the first page. I'd also like to mention STRAIN, a seriously underrated 90s partial conversion.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Juza

[Chopkinsca]

I have no grasp as to what "modern standards" are. I think the newest wad I played was half of Akeldema(sp). Before that, BTSX episode 1. Obviously I'm going with the original Memento Mori's. Every time I get back into Doom, instead of playing new stuff, I play the classics and MM 1 and 2 are part of that. Maybe that is part of me being a codgy old soul.

[Snarboo]

By "modern standard," what do you mean? Because I can think of a number of ways of breaking it down:

1. Smooth Flow & Design - Memento Mori 2
2. Cohesiveness - Icarus
3. Grandiosity - Eternal Doom
4. Punchy Gameplay - Scythe
5. Modern Trends (ie altered elements and unique texture set)  - Osiris, Strain, Scythe 2 (Depending on which flavor you prefer)
6. "Realness" or Sense of Place - Icarus, The Revolution!
7. Slaughter-tude - Hell Revealed

And that's only wads I'm familiar with! I don't typically play single map wads, so I don't doubt each of these categories has an immediate predecessor. The "modern standard," as far as I can tell, is made up of elements of each of these, and you could break it down even further if you wanted. Each of the wads I've cited could easily be slotted into another category depending on your preference, too.

 

Spoiler

As an aside, there are design elements that have become antiquated that I'd like to see done again, but with more polish. For example, I'd love to see more modern maps do what Heretic and early Doom maps did, where a good chunk of the level would be hidden from you until you found the Automap powerup. Most modern mappers hide the Automap in a secret to help players mop up anything they missed, but there's potential there for a more adventurous style of map by using it as a legitimate mechanic rather than a bonus.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Snarboo
Added another category

[Korozive]

I love threads like this. I get a bit of DOOM Education and more often than not find some wads I have never played before.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Korozive

[Diabolución]

 

9 hours ago, The BMFG said:

wait btsx was made in 1991/92?

 

Yes, it was.

 

Propeller (Guided by Voices album) - Wikipedia

[LadyMistDragon]

I'm not sure....maybe Vanguard? Scythe 2 mostly but that brand of design has gotten considerably more sophisticated, so not completely.

[Azure_Horror]

Shareware Doom.

 

I am only half-joking here. Doom E1 has very consistent texture choice, so the visual design checks out.
Doom E1 also has very good weapon balance, because there are no non-boss monsters bigger than a pinky. Thus chainsaw, shotgun and chaingun are all very effective, and the secret RL sreves as a BFG analogue. Good weapon balance also leads to fun and smooth progression, with no mandatory secrets. And the final map may be relatively dull, but it is still a wonderful capstone for a WAD, with its strong ambience and a death exit surprise.

 

The secret map may be somewhat bad, but it is a secret map. They are allowed to be weird, and even disappointing.

[TMD]

Depends on your definition of "A" in "A Modern Standard"

Dwango5 still has a shitton of viability in competitive multiplayer circuits, and that is from like 1995.
as for modernity standards in single player, Ill just say "Lullaby", smooch anybody that says otherwise, change the sign to "Duck season" and jump back into my hidey hole because I dont actually follow that side of the community.

["JL" was too short]

On 6/6/2021 at 2:52 PM, Azure_Horror said:

 

The secret map may be somewhat bad, but it is a secret map. They are allowed to be weird, and even disappointing.

 

Funnily enough E1M9 is probably the most interesting secret map out of the original three episodes, though the other two have some exciting (for the day) combat in them, at least.

[BedrockCastle]

Scythe (2003). In terms of visual design it's just like vanilla Doom but the gameplay still holds up well. Scythe 2 (2005) is far better when it comes to the visuals and has more features like a DeHackEd patch and much harder maps, some people even compare it to Sunlust when it comes to the difficulty.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

This is like asking people what is the result of 3x3+1 and watching the war that is about to unfold between people who don't care about precedence and those who do. What are the modern standards being applied? Do most modern maps even adhere to those or are they just a specific mapping style someone likes?

[roadworx]

20 minutes ago, Pegg said:

This is like asking people what is the result of 3x3+1 and watching the war that is about to unfold between people who don't care about precedence and those who do. What are the modern standards being applied? Do most modern maps even adhere to those or are they just a specific mapping style someone likes?

3x3+1 is the same with or without prioritization tho, doing it simply from right to left results in 10 and so does precedence. it has an objective answer

Edited July 1, 2021 by roadworx

[Cruduxy Pegg]

48 minutes ago, roadworx said:

3x3+1 is the same with or without prioritization tho, doing it simply from right to left results in 10 and so does precedence. it has an objective answer

Ah I stupidly wrote one that won't cause the issues in a hasty comment lol. there you go 2+3x3 :P. Math teachers would love to be told the answer is 15, especially in high school or college. [ I know it is still a simple one, but this is basically the format used by all the stupid clickbait "puzzles" on social media to get more comments\views].

Edited July 1, 2021 by Pegg

[franckFRAG]

Suspended In Dusk