zdaemon status

[Masterball]

jelow, i want to know why zdaemon is dead?, i remember there was too many people playing like 2015, but there are very few players now, what is going on?, why this happens?, i miss the 2015 days

[TheMightyHeracross]

I wouldn't say it's dead. At the very least, Thursday Night Survival gets a lot of people pretty consistently.

[Doomkid]

ZDaemon wasn't any more popular in 2015 from my recollection. It's been roughly at the same level for the last 10 years, substantially behind Zand in terms of raw numbers but with a dedicated playerbase remaining

[Doom64hunter]

I second Doomkid's post, the multiplayer scene has been in a more stagnant state for a while now.  It used to be much bigger in 2005-2010.

 

It's odd that casual Doom multiplayer gradually lost popularity while the rest of the community seems to have grown in size, especially for Deathmatch gamemodes.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Doom64hunter

[Masterball]

23 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

I wouldn't say it's dead. At the very least, Thursday Night Survival gets a lot of people pretty consistently.

in 2015 were too much people dude, in 2016 people left

[Edward850]

Of course everyone left. They had to as they all forgot their account passwords.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Edward850

[Doomkid]

10 minutes ago, Masterball said:

in 2015 were too much people dude

No multiplayer Doom port has ever had "too much people", if anything there always should have been at least double or triple the population on all of them.

 

(How can you have "too many" people..? The more servers and choices, the better..)

[roadworx]

17 hours ago, Doom64hunter said:

I second Doomkid's post, the multiplayer scene has been in a more stagnant state for a while now.  It used to be much bigger in 2005-2010.

 

It's odd that casual Doom multiplayer gradually lost popularity while the rest of the community seems to have grown in size, especially for Deathmatch gamemodes.

yeah...while i'm not one for dming (i suck at the game and am afraid people will be mean to me) it's still sad to see it not get anywhere near as much attention as it once did. i hope that it'll maybe pick back up in popularity someday 

[Kizoky]

7 minutes ago, roadworx said:

i hope that it'll maybe pick back up in popularity someday 

I don't think it will regain the popularity it had ever again, it's not that charming anymore.

[Doomkid]

Funny to hear that as I don’t know of any multiplayer FPS as fun as Doom.

[Spooner5020]

On 6/9/2021 at 4:17 AM, Doom64hunter said:

I second Doomkid's post, the multiplayer scene has been in a more stagnant state for a while now.  It used to be much bigger in 2005-2010.

 

It's odd that casual Doom multiplayer gradually lost popularity while the rest of the community seems to have grown in size, especially for Deathmatch gamemodes.

I played Zdaemon a lot from 2005-2010. Mainly cause of Mike12’s Maghq. Heck I still remember some of the players I played with. Yeah zdaemon sucks now.

[Masterball]

yes zdaemon sucks now, since 2016. I hear they gone cause the admins, some dudes said that the admins are fools or something, but only few said that, the others idk why they left?, maybe cause of fortine? lol

 

 

[mod note, 6/22/21: the OP has been banned for trolling here and elsewhere]

[forgettable pyromaniac]

fork knife, also known as the main reason I stick to older fps games lmao

real talk though, it's probably dying because not nearly as many people play doom anymore, less people play doom multiplayer, and even less create maps for said multiplayer. It'll always be around, sure, but it'll always have less than a few hundred, if even, unless someone extremely popular starts playing the game all of a sudden (like what among us did, small game until someone big played it, and then it ballooned out).

[Masterball]

8 minutes ago, forgettablepyromaniac said:

fork knife, also known as the main reason I stick to older fps games lmao

real talk though, it's probably dying because not nearly as many people play doom anymore, less people play doom multiplayer, and even less create maps for said multiplayer. It'll always be around, sure, but it'll always have less than a few hundred, if even, unless someone extremely popular starts playing the game all of a sudden (like what among us did, small game until someone big played it, and then it ballooned out).

i think is fault of the admins and fortine, some new games, i miss the 2015 zdaemon and yes now it sucks :c

[roadworx]

40 minutes ago, forgettablepyromaniac said:

fork knife, also known as the main reason I stick to older fps games lmao

real talk though, it's probably dying because not nearly as many people play doom anymore, less people play doom multiplayer, and even less create maps for said multiplayer. It'll always be around, sure, but it'll always have less than a few hundred, if even, unless someone extremely popular starts playing the game all of a sudden (like what among us did, small game until someone big played it, and then it ballooned out).

actually, the classic doom community is more active than anytime in the past 7-8 years, at least from what i can remember. with nudoom, eviternity, and the unity port all coming out in the past 5 years as well decino's vids being swept up by youtube's algorithm, its gotten a huge boost in popularity. i'm seeing far more younger people being regulars in the classic doom section of dw than i ever have before, which kinda indicates that it's absolutely not dying and is in fact growing.

 

now, why multiplayer hasn't risen in popularity alongside classic doom, i have no idea.

Edited June 21, 2021 by roadworx

[Redneckerz]

ZDaemon has its own core base of folks. Because the port implements several features unique to it (albeit comparable to more universal standards) it also has specialized conversions of mapsets that take into account ZD's unique features.

 

One of its main issues is knowledge imo. There are so many variables that its difficult to point out what showcases the port the best. Making ZD's features better and more widely known is one goal in mind.

 

1 hour ago, Masterball said:

yes zdaemon sucks now, since 2016.

Why this specific year? Because people felt ZD sucked as far back as 2003, and it was then because it was not Skull Tag and/or based on the then latest ZDoom.

1 hour ago, Masterball said:

I hear they gone cause the admins, some dudes said that the admins are fools or something, but only few said that, the others idk why they left?, maybe cause of fortine? lol

This is completely hearsay. What do you think, instead? Because this is just setting tones.

1 hour ago, Masterball said:

i think is fault of the admins and fortine, some new games, i miss the 2015 zdaemon and yes now it sucks :c

If there is something to blame, what exactly are you blaming then?

[Major Arlene]

2 hours ago, Masterball said:

yes zdaemon sucks now, since 2016. I hear they gone cause the admins, some dudes said that the admins are fools or something, but only few said that, the others idk why they left?, maybe cause of fortine? lol

obviously what "some dudes" say on the internet must be true...

[OpenRift]

On 6/9/2021 at 4:17 AM, Doom64hunter said:

It's odd that casual Doom multiplayer gradually lost popularity while the rest of the community seems to have grown in size, especially for Deathmatch gamemodes.

I think it's because of how fragmented Doom's multiplayer is compared to something like QuakeWorld. Quake has a handful of source ports that are compatible with QuakeWorld, but they all share the same general network protocol, so theoretically someone playing on FTE can play in the same server as someone using ezQuake or even vanilla. There's also NetQuake, QuakeWorld's netcode predecessor, but that's basically it. All of Quake's source ports fall into one of two camps in terms of multiplayer (and both in the case of FTE).

 

Meanwhile, almost every multiplayer source port for Doom has their own separate servers. If you wanna play some Doom deathmatch, you have to look through at least 3 different server browsers if you wanna find people playing. Sure, there's all-in-one browsers like Doom Explorer, but that requires you to have all those source ports installed and configured. If you ask me, Chocolate and Crispy Doom have the right idea with sharing the same server list (Woof might get choco netcode too if the github stuff is anything to go by). I kind of blame ZDoom and GZDoom a bit for fragmenting the multiplayer scene so much, because it pretty much eliminates any chance of having some unified (or at the very least simplified) multiplayer standard. It doesn't help that ZDaemon is closed-source and I couldn't even submit feedback if I wanted to because I can't log into my account on that stupid forum (I have to "get in contact with an admin" to get my password reset, fuck that).

 

But if you want to play deathmatch with people, it's all about joining a discord server or IRC chat to find people to play with. It's more fun that way anyway, because you're mostly playing with friends and making new ones.

[TheMightyHeracross]

5 hours ago, OpenRift said:

Meanwhile, almost every multiplayer source port for Doom has their own separate servers. If you wanna play some Doom deathmatch, you have to look through at least 3 different server browsers if you wanna find people playing. Sure, there's all-in-one browsers like Doom Explorer, but that requires you to have all those source ports installed and configured.

I don't think this is the issue, Doomseeker covers both Zandronum and Odamex while ZDaemon has its own browser, that's 2 at most and one comes with the port, and like you said IDE does all three.

 

Quote

 If you ask me, Chocolate and Crispy Doom have the right idea with sharing the same server list (Woof might get choco netcode too if the github stuff is anything to go by).

Crispy Doom is literally a fork of Chocolate Doom and they both still have vanilla accuracy so of course it's way easier for the two to be compatible in multiplayer, it's not even comparable to the three main multiplayer ports (which, while technically all forked from CsDoom have been diverging from each other for over a decade each).

 

Quote

I kind of blame ZDoom and GZDoom a bit for fragmenting the multiplayer scene so much, because it pretty much eliminates any chance of having some unified (or at the very least simplified) multiplayer standard.

How in the world did you draw this conclusion? ZDoom is dead, GZDoom isn't even part of the MP scene aside from what, Hideous Destructor co-op games? And if you're talking about CsDoom, given that the current 3 MP ports are all based on it, it probably is the least responsible for said "fragmentation." I don't even think "fragmentation" is the issue since like I said, you can pretty much join games in all three from the same one or two browsers.

 

The real issue of why Doom multiplayer is stagnant is because of the situation with the current 3 MP ports:

• Zandronum is still the most popular, but it has even slower development now than ZDoom did when Marisa was still in charge, and has been playing the same mods with few exceptions for over 10 years. Then take into account that the situation has become absolutely dire in the past few years with the introduction of ZScript in GZDoom, which is completely incompatible with the CsDoom approach to C/S multiplayer, putting Zandronum even further behind mainline GZDoom than before, with fewer and fewer popular mods remaining compatible each year. This is a massive hit for Zandronum since its advanced ZDoom features used to be its killer feature in the MP port scene.
• Odamex is recovering from a decade of being mocked as the "dead port," in a kind of chicken-and-egg scenario (it's dead because no one uses it because...), though it arguably has the smoothest development out of the three and has made great strides in recent times thanks to the addition of Survival and endorsements from decino and Romero, plus it has WDL going for it. Even though it still has the smallest playerbase it's probably the only port of the three making gains, but very, very slowly.
• ZDaemon is at a weird in-between point where it doesn't have Zandronum's advanced features, Odamex's vanilla faithfulness, or either of those ports' competitive scenes. Plus a lot of small annoying things like being closed-source for no reason, being Windows only, having that silly account system, not working with Doomseeker... like I said it's not totally dead but it is kind of coasting on the cultural significance of Thursday Night Survival, which fortunately for ZDaemon folks is probably the largest (regularly scheduled, i.e. not counting decino's stress tests) Doom MP event around on any port.

Like roadworx said Doom itself is probably the biggest it's been in years, it's just that the current MP source port situation is a bit rough, though it's not really anyone's fault.

Edited June 22, 2021 by TheMightyHeracross

[Edward850]

39 minutes ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

not working with Doomseeker...

It's dumber than that. Doomseeker did support Zdaemon, but Zdaemon continually kept changing the protocol explicitly to prevent Doomseeker's plugin from working. They are extremely antagonistic to any kind of support outside of their weird internal circle, essentially creating their own stagnation.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Edward850

[LexiMax]

1 hour ago, OpenRift said:

I kind of blame ZDoom and GZDoom a bit for fragmenting the multiplayer scene so much, because it pretty much eliminates any chance of having some unified (or at the very least simplified) multiplayer standard.

 

Frankly it was a minor miracle that client/server netcode was hacked into Doom and works as well as it does.

 

However, these protocols were mostly hacked on by hobbyists...for an engine never designed for client/server...without the benefit of being John Carmack or having decades of hindsight.  csDoom was what we got, and as forks sprung up with different objectives, it was inevitable that these protocols would have gone their separate ways.

 

I suppose ZDoom could have created a definitive ZProtocol, but I think Marisa simply chose not to get lost in that quagmire, and given where GZDoom is today I think she made the right call - opportunity costs and all that.

Edited June 22, 2021 by AlexMax

[Decay]

1 hour ago, OpenRift said:

I kind of blame ZDoom and GZDoom a bit for fragmenting the multiplayer scene so much, because it pretty much eliminates any chance of having some unified (or at the very least simplified) multiplayer standard.

This reeks of community ignorance. Even only having been around since 2009 it's obvious the player and various admins across all the ports and disagreements people have had with each other that fragmented and held back the scene, and arguably the playerbase continues to do so even today. The WDL and MDF are the closest things you'll get to any sort of agreement on standards.

 

I remember when odamex hosted purely vanilla servers back when 0.6 first dropped. Nobody wanted to play pure vanilla. I remember when Zandronum implemented vanilla compat flags. Nobody wanted them. Realistically many people wanted a nostalgic replication of an old zdaemon version from like 2003-2006. Half the players don't even know what real vanilla means.

 

All the ports have different objectives and are moving along at their own pace at this point. People enjoy what they want to enjoy and at this point most people realize you may as well have the main 3 ports ready to go if you want to get the most out of multiplayer doom. If it's classic dm, that's that, if it's mods, that's that. If you want to find players to play something you want, you need to get on Discord or just suck it up and jump in a server.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Decay

[Doomkid]

I made a video that shows in pretty good detail how to set up all 3 ports with Doom Explorer in 4 minutes - for anyone who finds that process too hard.. This may sound harsh, but we're probably better off without em anyway.

 

Also re: ZDaemon's account system.. Yeah, it can be annoying, but when you're trying to host an event on Zandronum such as MtPain27 did the other day, enjoy a bunch of losers connecting with names like... Well, I don't want to repeat them in public but rest assured they range from racist to bigoted to just.. Disgusting and weird. When someone makes an account with a name like that on ZDaemon it's almost instantly terminated alongside an IP ban - so I think the idea that there's no benefit to accounts is not accurate.

 

Plus, it's nice to have my EXP tracked since 2005 - gives me a sense of connection to the port, its history, and the long-lived (albeit shrinking) community. Zandronum matches feel very "throwaway" by comparison, which is all well and good, but doesn't really foster the same feeling of connection, or the urge to climb the leaderboard.

 

Frankly I end up bored while DMing on Zandronum because it's like.. If I don't even know the people I'm playing against, and they're kind of rude assholes, AND the server/player stats aren't even being tracked.. Uh, why the fuck am I wasting my time here in the first place? Of course, it's different when you're playing with cool people you know, but I find it to be a much bigger point of consideration than most people involved with the MP community and MP port development let on.

 

As for ZDaemon not wanting to be listed on Doomseeker, that's an EXTREME case of "Cutting off the nose to spite the face" that I can't explain. They did the same thing with Doom Connector back in 2005, and within like a year Skulltag was dominating ZDaemon in terms of sheer numbers, while the opposite had been true from 2002 to 2005.

Edit: Let me correct the record here a bit: The Doom Connector rift was made far worse by CodeImp’s multiple attacks on ZDaemon. I remember the first of the DDoSes first hand, actually. So them having no desire to work with DC whatsoever after that is perfectly reasonable. I should have mentioned this initially.

 

While I think accounts are a great idea, active hostility towards most other facets of the MP community was/is not, at all. And that applies to ANYONE involved with the MP scene, to be clear. *cough* Edward *cough*

Edited June 22, 2021 by Doomkid

[roadworx]

21 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Also re: ZDaemon's account system.. Yeah, it can be annoying, but when you're trying to host an event on Zandronum such as MtPain27 did the other day, enjoy a bunch of losers connecting with names like... Well, I don't want to repeat them in public but rest assured they range from racist to bigoted to just.. Disgusting and weird. When someone makes an account with a name like that on ZDaemon it's almost instantly terminated alongside an IP ban - so I think the idea that there's no benefit to accounts is not accurate.

yeah. that was...incredibly irritating.

[Edward850]

51 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

When someone makes an account with a name like that on ZDaemon it's almost instantly terminated alongside an IP ban - so I think the idea that there's no benefit to accounts is not accurate.

Wait hang on, are they still doing global IP bans? That's an exceptionally bad idea nowadays given the continued adoption of CGNAT. You could end up banning an entire satellite network with a single action. Heck maybe that's already why the numbers are dropping.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Edward850

[Doomkid]

I can't actually say for sure that they're still doing that. What's the alternative? I've IP banned numerous people from Doomshack. Since letting abusive players run rampant is obviously not an option I'd love to hear the alternative and the ZD devs might too.

 

EDIT: The are plenty of people who are masterbanned by IP on Zandronum as well, so an alternative would be really nice. This effects Zandronum just as much so it's certainly not a port-specific issue.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Doomkid

[Gez]

50 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

The fact that isn't how it played out suggests to me that at least some (though maybe not all) of the people at the helm on the ZD team actually want the community to be small - though I still can't imagine why..

A smaller community is easier to manage?

 

As they grow older they have less patience for the antics of random newcomers they don't care about?

[Edward850]

9 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I can't actually say for sure that they're still doing that. What's the alternative? I've IP banned numerous people from Doomshack. Since letting abusive players run rampant is obviously not an option I'd love to hear the alternative and the ZD devs might too.

Well, oddly an account system would play into that one, though Zdaemon's use of it really isn't playing into is possible strengths. Use OpenID as an authentication method, tie that to account of some value such as a google account then put some proof of work behind it (require authenticating through an email, for example). It's a step adjacent to what we did for Turok2 Crossplay, where your account is transparent but it's directly tied to your first party authentication, where getting banned means you aren't getting back in on that account no matter wherever you are.

 

This would also make account recovery so much easier on the users own behalf, it also means your own service isn't managing/storing people's passwords anymore, removing it as a security vulnerability target.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Edward850

[Doomkid]

It's a nice idea, but if accounts are already a turn-off to players when making them is just a few clicks, I have to imagine waiting a day or a few hours or whatever to be authenticated is going to take the average from 15 players down to 0.

 

Plus, Zandronum (and Odamex I'm assuming) still won't be helped by that approach, and are - AFAIK - still using IP-based masterbans. So this is definitely not a port specific issue.

[Doom64hunter]

If IPv6 finds more general adoption (eventually, someday, maybe) then concerns for false positives would become less of an issue with IP bans. But then it's likely that users have huge IP ranges to switch between, making it easy to bypass the ban.

 

Maybe one could somehow collect a fingerprint of the user connecting to the master server (but this is probably a GDPR privacy issue) or store a unique identifier on the client on first install (which may again be changed by knowlegeable users, but may filter out the less intelligent spammers).

Edited June 22, 2021 by Doom64hunter