The Activision Blizzard Situation ¿Any Thoughts?

[hybridial]

1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

I apologize. I did not mean to be condescending.

 

That's appreciated

 

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

It is just that I keep seeing discussions of harassment getting hijacked by self-proclaimed Men's Rights Activists or concern trolls. Incidentally, even the guy featured in that article had to stress that what he experienced was nothing compared to what his female co-workers had to deal with.

 

It's best to ignore it, at least to not be the one who instigates or first brings up such things. Take the situation as it is, and don't let any bias come into it. I mean, in that example, the victim in question can qualify the overall impact of what he went through in comparison to others, but the fact is he was mistreated, and clearly he was not the only male to feel compelled to make a complaint, that well, as we see, a big problem is how complaints were handled by Blizzard internally. 

[Murdoch]

It is astonishing it has taken so long to come out. Management had to have been actively complicit in trying to both let it continue and make sure there were consequences for complainants, either directly or implied. 

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, hybridial said:

That's appreciated

Glad to hear it! You might want to edit my quote in your previous comment to reflect the change, though.

 

6 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

It is astonishing it has taken so long to come out. Management had to have been actively complicit in trying to both let it continue and make sure there were consequences for complainants, either directly or implied. 

Yes and no. When there are so many systems in place, it can get really hard to go against the grain.

 

I mean, just look at how much time and efforts it took to convict Bill Cosby... only for him to get out of jail on a technicality.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Rudolph

[hybridial]

3 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Glad to hear it! You might want to edit my quote in your previous comment to reflect the change, though.

 

Sure, I've done that, just letting you know.

[Major Arlene]

13 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

It is astonishing it has taken so long to come out. Management had to have been actively complicit in trying to both let it continue and make sure there were consequences for complainants, either directly or implied. 

One word- 'Murica.

[Rudolph]

5 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

One word- 'Murica.

Unfortunately, no. Horror stories like this have been happening all across the world.

 

French studios Quantic Dream and Ubisoft, for instance, have been rocked with similar scandals recently.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Rudolph

[Taw Tu'lki]

I don't believe in some words from victim and the management of the company who was "involved in the rape". Scandals. Just another scandal.

[Major Arlene]

Just now, Taw Tu'lki said:

I don't believe in some words from victim and the management of the company who was "involved in the rape". Scandals. Just another scandal.

With what evidence? 

As I've said before, a case in which this happens does need evidence and a criminal court case but words like this are completely unnecessary. Leave that for courts to decide. Speaking like this is harmful to victims.

[omx32x]

19 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Unfortunately, no. Horror stories like this have been happening all across the world.

 

French studios Quantic Dream and Ubisoft, for instance, have been rocked with similar scandals recently.

if im not mistaken nicalis also had stories of abuse and racism in the last few years not only that but they also stole the cave story ip from its owner

[Rudolph]

@omalefico32x I heard about the IP theft, but I was providing examples of non-American video game developers turning out to be horrible workplaces.

[scalliano]

Wasn't there also something about Focus Home Interactive screwing over the Aeon Must Die devs?

 

As for the main topic, IMHO with Kotick's habit of surrounding himself with ex government officials, bringing in the union busters and the entire staff revolt being hijacked by the idpol controlled opposition, if you think anything positive will come out of this, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

It's a played out maxim, but it's always worth repeating. Vote With Your Wallet.

 

Also, while I'm here, fuck Games Workshop.

[omx32x]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

@omalefico32x I heard about the IP theft, but I was providing examples of non-American video game developers turning out to be horrible workplaces.

oh yeah i know what i was saying with my comment is that the industry as a whole sucks from indies to big AAA companies there are just as many bad studios and publishers as good ones

[Rudolph]

46 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

oh yeah i know what i was saying with my comment is that the industry as a whole sucks from indies to big AAA companies there are just as many bad studios and publishers as good ones

Yeah, today, I have just learned that even Fullbright is having a scandal of its own.

 

1 hour ago, scalliano said:

It's a played out maxim, but it's always worth repeating. Vote With Your Wallet.

Unfortunately, that advice is very much useless in a world where a select few people own pretty much everything.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Rudolph

[scalliano]

9 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Unfortunately, that advice is very much useless in a world where a select few people own pretty much everything.

I once saw a spoof advert for Nestle that basically said, "go ahead, try and boycott our products" and in many ways it's true. I don't believe in organised boycotts myself, primarily because nobody ever bloody well sticks to them (Genshin, anyone?). What I would say is that I've found a great degree of personal fulfilment by choosing not to support a company that does something I disagree with or just outright pisses me off. Not out of a feeling of "hehe, that'll show 'em" because that's ridiculous. More that I was able to show restraint and that they didn't get MY money. Hey, it's a tough thing to do at times, and I've certainly faltered, but it's something worth keeping in mind, I feel.

 

In the face of overwhelming odds, I'm all about the moral victory. If enough people were to do that, who knows? It's unlikely to change the world, but it might give corporations pause if their bottom line is sufficiently hit.

 

Or they could just run a hit piece on Kotaku and blame the players like they usually do.

[[McD] James]

1 minute ago, scalliano said:

I don't believe in organized boycotts myself, primarily because nobody ever bloody well sticks to them (Genshin, anyone?).

 

 

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, scalliano said:

Or they could just run a hit piece on Kotaku and blame the players like they usually do.

Well, if they did, they are not wrong: after all, you yourself has just admitted to being happy achieving purely symbolic victories. :P

 

Instead of "voting with our wallet" and other similarly empty gestures, what we can do instead is to try to achieve substantial victories, such as rallying behind unionization efforts in the video game industry and elsewhere; after all, we know for a fact that this, unlike boycotts, really terrifies corporations.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Rudolph

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Instead of "voting with our wallet" and other similarly empty gestures,

Voting with your wallet is actually one of the things that is most effective in killing off a studio. After all, no income = revenue loss.

 

The cynical reality however is that people will continue to pay for the game while knowing what the company behind it does. So, while they care with the cause, they care a little more about just being able to play the game.

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

what we can do instead is to try to achieve substantial victories, such as rallying behind unionization efforts in the video game industry and elsewhere; after all, we know for a fact that this, unlike boycotts, really terrifies corporations.

If anything else it should be done under legal jurisdiction, with laws, jury's and judges. Not through a culture of cancellation where companies are run into the ground without facts but only feelings.

 

Not saying this pertains to the latter, just speaking in general.

[scalliano]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Well, if they did, they are not wrong: after all, you yourself has just admitted to being happy achieving purely symbolic victories. :P

Absolutely. It is indeed my fault for having a conscience. Fact is, I did something I knew I could do even if nobody else did.

 

Also, I fail to see how not giving my money to a shitty company is an empty gesture. Case in point: Battlefield V to Battlefield 2042. The former was rejected by fans over its creative direction, they were attacked for it by both the company and the media, the game flopped (comparatively) and didn't even see all of its content being released. BF2042, on the other hand, is hotly anticipated as a return to form. EA listened, because their bottom line took a hit.

 

The problem with getting behind unionization (while a noble goal) is that you can only really do that if you are an employee in the industry. Anything else is just words. You can't participate in a staff walkout if you're not part of the staff. I say this as someone who is in a union. Anything substantial can only really be done at government level, because as we've seen with Activizzard and Amazon, they'll just call in Wilmer Hale to break it up.

[Gez]

On mardi 3 août 2021 at 5:04 PM, Rudolph said:

More like a scapegoat.

A fuse, really.

 

10 hours ago, scalliano said:

It's a played out maxim, but it's always worth repeating. Vote With Your Wallet.

Personal example: the first and last time I gave money to Blizzard was when I bought the Warcraft 2 expansion "Beyond the Dark Portal" back when it was new. (Just the expansion. The base game, I had copies of those floppies...) Warcraft 1, Starcraft, Diablo, Blackthorne I only played the demo versions. The rest of their games? Never even played. On the Activision side, it was Call to Power II. Never played any of those Call of Tony Hawk games they pump out.

 

So yeah I'm all okay with boycotting Acti-B, but I don't think that's gonna change anything since I already was at zero title from them bought or played in the 21st century.

[Rudolph]

8 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Voting with your wallet is actually one of the things that is most effective in killing off a studio. After all, no income = revenue loss.

Can you name an instance of this actually happening?

 

Because as far as I am aware, non-indie studios generally only close due to behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

 

8 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

If anything else it should be done under legal jurisdiction, with laws, jury's and judges.

No. Especially in the United States, the game has always historically been heavily rigged against workers, so waiting for the political class to show support is a recipe for disaster. Much like the union members of old, video game developers do not need anyone's permission to start organizing and engaging in direct action. We, gamers, need to throw our support behind unionization efforts. 

 

After all, Amazon workers did not wait for Jeff Bezos' approval to start striking and trying to unionize!

 

5 hours ago, scalliano said:

Also, I fail to see how not giving my money to a shitty company is an empty gesture. Case in point: Battlefield V to Battlefield 2042. The former was rejected by fans over its creative direction, they were attacked for it by both the company and the media, the game flopped (comparatively) and didn't even see all of its content being released. BF2042, on the other hand, is hotly anticipated as a return to form. EA listened, because their bottom line took a hit.

So not only did you still end up giving your money to a shitty company, but Battlefield V was not fixed and you had to pay for a different product altogether... That does not strike me as a victory at all.

 

5 hours ago, scalliano said:

The problem with getting behind unionization (while a noble goal) is that you can only really do that if you are an employee in the industry.

Not true. You can provide support to the unionization efforts through mutual aid, joining strikes and taking part in different forms of direct action to put pressure on the company. A century ago, unions had to contend with armed Pinkerton agents; if you allow yourself to be intimidated by the suits from Wilmer Hale, you are never going to go far, I am afraid.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Rudolph

[omx32x]

19 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

We, gamers, need to throw our support behind unionization efforts. 

gamers rise up

 

 

 

 

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sorry i couldn't stop myself

 

[Rudolph]

7 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

gamers rise up

Yeah, I thought about it myself while writing my post. :P

 

It is still true, though. 

[Liberation]

50 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

After all, Amazon workers did not wait for Jeff Bezos' approval to start striking and trying to unionize!

 

The difference here, is that no one wants to work for amazon, the video game industry is the complete opposite however and you can just sack all the people kicking off with very little actual care, it would just be considered a "high turnover of staff" like any other shitty company (Games workshop included as scalliano mentioned).

[Redneckerz]

52 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Can you name an instance of this actually happening?

Let me return the question first: Do you think that argument makes no sense? 

 

There is the story of Brigador, which atleast had a happy ending and became a success in the long run. It is an amazing read on how indie development works these days.

Especially this part:
 

Quote

This is what selling an indie game is like if you're not one of the Specials. Every game has peaks in sales that decay, but normally those slide into a baseline rate that's higher than non-existent. Media coverage, both press and youtube/twitch, largely determines both how high your sales peaks are, as well as how quickly they decay. When all mention of you or your game disappears from the internet within a few days, you don't have momentum so much as a flatline.

The only time Brigador has ever actually been covered by major traffic is when, ironically, it wasn't being covered at all. Back in February I had the extraordinary fortune of writing a frustrated but humorous response to a pair of posters on our forums who were dutifully informing me that the game I'd spent 5 years building wasn't worth $20, but magically became so at $15.

That post* went viral, and for the first time (outside a buried paragraph snippet) got us covered by Kotaku** and various others. The ensuing sales spike, which you can see above on the right, sold more copies of the game than our Early Access launch. And before you say anything, our Early Access sales were so bad that GOG backed out of adding Brigador to their platform. I really enjoyed getting that email.

I'm glad the viral streak happened, and it gave us a little breathing room, but it also shows just how massive an impact simple visibility makes for sales. So as a developer, especially one of limited means, past a certain point your hands are simply tied. And that's terrifying. If the gaming gods don't favor you, it doesn't matter what you've made, you're just screwed. In our case, it would mean coming away with an ivy league education's worth of debt.

Then there is also a GDC conference on Brigador:

GDC Vault: All Systems No: Learning from the Doomed Launch of Brigador

In short: Studios need any kind of attention to survive.

Now, i know what your question tries to convey. Namely evidence that a company actually was run into the ground because people didn't buy the game because it was problematic. By painting a different perspective, of that of a game developer who just wanted to make Nice Game Inc, i hope to illustrate that in practice, studios can die off by multiple ways. Not buying the game is one of them, as Brigador shows.

But Brigador also shows a game's selling potential is dependent on media attention. No attention = no revenue.

 

From this we can formulate two things:

• Not buying the game will send a studio off the cliff
• Not getting attention (Or, in the case of a problematic game, not giving attention) from the media will send a studio off the cliff aswell.

There are multiple secondary factors coming into play that aren't discussed here, such as financial misanthropy or other means. But the above two are two factors from which a studio will have a hard time recovering, if at all.
 

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Because as far as I am aware, non-indie studios generally only close due to behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

It depends. I suppose it happens more often through bigger studios than with smaller ones, but i reckon the above scenario holds equally well for AAA studios. They just need to recoup much more money to be viable is all.

And, unlike a indie studio, AAA studios can lay off folks or split. Indie studios basically can only offer up their studio or start working as developers-for-hire.

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No. Especially in the United States, the game has always historically been heavily rigged against workers, so waiting for the political class to show support is a recipe for disaster.

Going to be blunt here - The world is more than just the United States. And under that, this is a case of jurisdiction and evidence.

 

I am well aware of the system and that it is unfair - But perhaps we would need a world tribunal for these kinds of cases.

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We, gamers, need to throw our support behind unionization efforts. 

Okay, so much like the mass-protests of various countries today. The short-term results would be heavy losses and at best, the ousting of several high ranking buffs (In the case of Activision)

How about protesting for a long-term cause? How about protesting that such things will not happen again? Because Activision is not the first and won't be the last. Getting high ranking folk sacked is a symptom in my opinion. Making effective law that forfeits these companies to do equally the same is a long-term solution.

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After all, Amazon workers did not wait for Jeff Bezos' approval to start striking and trying to unionize!

You know that Jeff with his wealth atleast in the financial sense does not give a toss about that, right? What could work are laws that prohibit the ultra wealthy to do shitty things on the justification that they are ultra wealthy.

Being wealthy is no excuse to suddenly become extra shitty. In fact, being ultra wealthy brings forward additional responsibility since you are in a position of power. Misuse of that position should be subject to penalty, which is achieved through law.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Redneckerz

[Rudolph]

42 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

There is the story of Brigador, which atleast had a happy ending and became a success in the long run. It is an amazing read on how indie development works these days.

Brigador is a case of a small indie game going initially unnoticed. Also, this is not what I asked:

 

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Can you name an instance of [a studio closing as the result of people voting with their wallets] actually happening?

 

Because as far as I am aware, non-indie studios generally only close due to behind-the-scenes shenanigans.

 

42 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

The world is more than just the United States.

Activision-Blizzard is an American corporation.

 

42 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

You know that Jeff with his wealth atleast in the financial sense does not give a toss about that, right?

Is that why Amazon got so scared by the prospect of one location unionizing that they had to resort to an intense anti-union campaign, with ads plastered everywhere (even in bathroom stalls) and the traffic lights timing being modified to prevent canvassing?

 

If Jeff Bezos really did not give a toss, he would have just ignored the workers and let them unionize.

 

45 minutes ago, Liberation said:

The difference here, is that no one wants to work for amazon

Not true. Amazon is getting so big that in some places, workers have no choice but to work for it. 

 

Why did you think the workers are forced to endure inhumane working conditions and being treated as expendable as part of the job? Why are they trying to unionize rather than just resigning in masses and finding work elsewhere?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Rudolph

[Liberation]

Just because people have to work for amazon, does not mean they actually want to work for amazon.

[Rudolph]

22 minutes ago, Liberation said:

Just because people have to work for amazon, does not mean they actually want to work for amazon.

Same difference.

[scalliano]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

So not only did you still end up giving your money to a shitty company, but Battlefield V was not fixed and you had to pay for a different product altogether... That does not strike me as a victory at all.

Where did I say I gave them money?? You're now accusing me of the exact opposite of what I said I did. I was specifically talking about the people who DIDN'T spend money; the people who looked at the trailer expecting a grounded WW2 shooter and were greeted with a one-armed steampunk character blattering a Nazi over the head with a cricket bat and were like, "nah, this looks daft, I already have Wolfenstein". They were branded as "uneducated", given the "don't like it, don't buy it" line and, lo and behold, fans went "fine, I won't". I never bought BFV and I have no intention of getting 2042 (apropos of nothing, there's no SP). It's called citing an example.

 

Quote

Not true. You can provide support to the unionization efforts through mutual aid, joining strikes and taking part in different forms of direct action to put pressure on the company. A century ago, unions had to contend with armed Pinkerton agents; if you allow yourself to be intimidated by the suits from Wilmer Hale, you are never going to go far, I am afraid.

 

I have been on several strikes in my time, participating in them generally requires being an employee in my experience and, without going into too much detail, the reception from regular people not involved has been either indifference or outright disdain. Good luck with that.

[omx32x]

i think its kinda weird to say "people dont want to work at amazon" and them say "people want to work with video games" when people dont want to work at ea, konami or ubsoft

 

i think comparing amazon to the entire video game industry is kinda meaningless there are good companies and bad companies out there on every sector of the economy

[Wadmodder Shalton]

In fact, Blizzard should be ashamed for delisting the original Warcraft III from their Battle.net storefront in favor of the ill-fated Reforged which is the same as the base game & expansion pack but made on a really smaller & lower budget compared to the original base game & expansion pack, and having unpromised features, understated expectations, unpolished online multiplayer & inferior remastered graphics.

 

Also since Reforged replaces any existing copies of classic Warcraft III that Battle.net players already owned, Wikipedia could likely put the original Warcraft III & the original version of its expansion pack as being no longer available and being permanently replaced by the inferior Reforged release.

 

Since then, the only way to legally obtain the original version of the base game & expansion pack is via older out of print retail CD-ROM and/or DVD-ROM releases, or in the case of obtaining it unofficially, it's via Abandonware sites like Internet Archive. I'm wishing to see a Harmy's Despecialized Edition-styled approach to the original Warcraft III by the Warcraft community sometime in the future soon.

 

In fact, I find the tactic of replacing the original PC release of Warcraft III with a crappier remaster as the version available on Battle.net is stupid, but Blizzard probably did this because the original Warcraft III does use outdated & deprecated DirectX features that causes compatibility issues with modern releases of Microsoft Windows.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Wadmodder Shalton