( A video of mine ) On a topic I'm surprised nobody in this community has talked about

[ketmar]

1 minute ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

"and keeps the gameplay quite close to the original" is this good?

yeah. simply don't say that it is "intact", any other wording is ok, i believe.

[P41R47]

16 minutes ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

Intro ( edited ): Hello everyone it’s FPSGaming back with a brand new video and this is something I really wanted to get out there as I feel like the newer official doom ports really could’ve been better, and yes, this is sort of a re-upload because of the back lash and criticism I got from the doom community, mainly revolving around the fact that I was using the gzdoom fan made doom port as a reference for what the complete original port was, and this video hasn’t been changed dialogue wise other than the intro, so if you hear me say or show a video that says it’s the original just remember that because of the criticism I mean gzdoom, and I use gzdoom mainly because it’s the most universally used and loved port on pc and keeps the original gameplay intact, and yes I am aware that gzdoom does have it’s faults in not keeping the original game completely as it was as I’m pretty sure videos have been done on this, I’m just using the more modern ports like gzdoom as an example since most people on PC tend to lean towards gzdoom when bringing up more modern ports of doom they find good especially for modern mass appeal, secondly I am aware that there are some forum posts and videos similar that have talked about this topic, so just remember that if I say nobody has talked about this, I’m lying and I simply just didn’t edit it out. 

There is a lot of subjetivity on that paragraph, kinda deviating from the informativeness of the video :/
But well, since you think its good to left in the wrong comparisons, i don't know what else can be said.

[Gustavo_Playz]

2 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

There is a lot of subjetivity on that paragraph, kinda deviating from the informativeness of the video :/
But well, since you think its good to left in the wrong comparisons, i don't know what else can be said.

how about if I add " this video of course is gonna highlight differences big and small between these ports "

[ketmar]

1 minute ago, P41R47 said:

There is a lot of subjetivity on that paragraph, kinda deviating from the informativeness of the video :/
But well, since you think its good to left in the wrong comparisons, i don't know what else can be said.

i think that from this intro it is more clear that the author is talking about things the official ports could do, but choose not to. it is a valid criticism, i think. the wording could be better, but it can be said about almost anything anyway. ;-)

 

1 minute ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

how about if I add " this video of course is gonna highlight differences big and small between these ports "

maybe add some sentences about the origins of your criticism. like "they could do much better, i believe, but choose to stick to the original DOS version instead", or something, so people could understand that you're talking about "missing opportunities".

[P41R47]

9 minutes ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

how about if I add " this video of course is gonna highlight differences big and small between these ports "

as Ketmar put it on a previous post, that comparison is pointless as its like comparing orange with apples.
Focus on the Doom 3 part, thats the one done mostly right.

Think on re doing the classic doom part on other video, maybe.

EDIT: as Ketmar said again, and as i did in a few post back, yes, there are some missed oportunities. But well, its hard to choose when being in need to be faithful. Even tho, there are quite a good number of quality of life improvement on the new official ports.
Don't know how to showcase that with what is already in, sorry!
Only thing that may be offputing is that the footage included is from the BFG edition... that has quite a good number of years on its back, and has a lot less improvements compared to the new classic unity port.

Edited July 25, 2021 by P41R47

[Biodegradable]

Welcome to the Vanilla gameplay/source port rabbit hole, @Gustavo_Playz. It goes DEEP! You've come to the right place though to brush up on your homework. You'll find heaps of resources and lovely people to help your research so you can make a much more accurate video. Quite a few of the source port devs themselves hang out here, so you can talk to them about the difference between Vanilla-accuracy and altered gameplay between the ports and the different purposes they serve. We also have the DoomWiki (not to be confused with the inferior Fandom Doom Wiki site) that our dedicated staff keep up-to-date on all the latest discoveries and innovations going on with the game if you want to take a deep-dive. 

 

Incidentally, good on you for taking the criticism on the chin rather than just BTFOing like Gmanlives did with his horrendous Doom Unity port video last year. ;^P

Edited July 25, 2021 by Biodegradable

[The_Trve_Raith]

This is overall a really inaccurate video. 

 

No version of Doom is being "lost to time", and, tell me, have you played the original version?

Like, no GZDOOM, no modern enhancements, just plain old DOS Doom.

 

When you do, please come back and tell me how these ports are "downgraded".

[ketmar]

@The_Trve_Raith i think there's no need for hostility. the author seem to be able to handle the criticism, he just didn't made his point clear enough (but tried to fix that after people pointed it out). it's great that people are doing such videos, and wanting the game to be better. anybody can make a mistake, what matters is how they react to the critics, i believe.

Edited July 25, 2021 by ketmar

[Gustavo_Playz]

8 minutes ago, ketmar said:

@The_Trve_Raith i think there's no need for hostility. the author seem to be able to handle the criticism, he just didn't made his point clear enough (but tried to fix that after people pointed it out). it's great that people are doing such videos, and wanting the game to be better. anybody can make a mistake, what matters is how they react to the critics, i believe.

I added in the new intro, I’m uploading the video rn, I’m making in unlisted so people here can take a look at it before I publish it tomorrow, I’m way to tired rn to add timestamps though.

[Edward850]

7 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

The music is literally just running on a different soundfont, you're used to the default for GZDoom, for a shock to the system listen to it on a Roland (or get crazy and try An Arachno!). It's a MIDI mate, you can swap them out all the way back on DOS with different audio cards, equipment ect...

In fact the music in the current official ports is recorded off of an actual SC-55 MKII, which is what the music was originally composed with. It couldn't be any more authentic without Bobby Prince literally playing a keyboard next to you. Meanwhile GZDoom defaults to some weird Roland clone soundfont with very dull reverb (if I understand it correctly).

[Gustavo_Playz]

Link to the video can be found here, should be playable once fully uploaded, but that’s it for today, I’m getting rest

 

 

[lokbustam257]

I'm kinda suprised this isn't lock already

Edited July 25, 2021 by lokbustam257

[Teo Slayer]

1 hour ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

Link to the video can be found here, should be playable once fully uploaded, but that’s it for today, I’m getting rest

 

 

The sound of the weapons in the BFG edition hurt my ears

[TheNoob_Gamer]

9 hours ago, lokbustam257 said:

I'm kinda suprised this isn't lock already

TBH most people are behaving rather civil here, no point in locking yet.

Edited July 25, 2021 by TheNoob_Gamer

[Doomkid]

3 hours ago, Edward850 said:

In fact the music in the current official ports is recorded off of an actual SC-55 MKII, which is what the music was originally composed with. It couldn't be any more authentic without Bobby Prince literally playing a keyboard next to you. Meanwhile GZDoom defaults to some weird Roland clone soundfont with very dull reverb (if I understand it correctly).

The worst thing about the GZDoom soundfont is that it’s somehow worse than the default Windows soundfont! It’s like that, but with way too much reverb and the bass guitars jacked up way too loud, but not in a way that sounds good. It really should be at least a good as the default Windows MIDI.. Maybe there’s some licensing concern?

[VanaheimRanger]

4 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

The worst thing about the GZDoom soundfont is that it’s somehow worse than the default Windows soundfont! It’s like that, but with way too much reverb and the bass guitars jacked up way too loud, but not in a way that sounds good. It really should be at least a good as the default Windows MIDI.. Maybe there’s some licensing concern?

I changed mine in GZDoom to Patch93's SC-55 soundfont, the same one I use in PRB+ and other ports...however, it sounds different in GZDoom than it does in other ports...I'm not an expert on soundfonts and how they work, but I'm pretty sure that's not normal, lol.

[ketmar]

40 minutes ago, VanaheimRanger said:

however, it sounds different in GZDoom than it does in other ports

GZDoom has reverb on by default, afair. you can turn it off in FluidSynth settings, it should be better without it. ;-)

[BBQgiraffe]

12 hours ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

Mainly since gzdoom has sort of been the most universally used port, that maintains the original gameplay the most

 

saying gzdoom is vanilla accurate is like replacing all the models in Half-Life with Quake models and saying it's accurate to the original quake since it's using the same assets, sure the engine is *based* on Doom but that was 15 years ago, and with constant code modifications I highly doubt much of the original Doom gameplay is actually in there, also don't take this as hating on gzdoom it's a very competent engine that's way better than anything I could write

[ketmar]

13 minutes ago, BBQgiraffe said:

I highly doubt much of the original Doom gameplay is actually in there

actually, it is still there, and it is mostly demo-compatible. the differences are due to using floating point, and some bugfixes/changes that can be turned off by selecting "strict vanilla" mode. the core Doom physics and AI code is still there, because rewriting it will make GZDoom totally incompatible with many pwads.

[Edward850]

6 hours ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

Link to the video can be found here, should be playable once fully uploaded, but that’s it for today, I’m getting rest

 

 

To address this video directly, there's some distinct errors you've made that could do with some better research for these sorts of critical videos. From the top:

 

You are using the BFG edition of the classic Doom ports, these are not representative of the current official ports id Software has released (and at the time had to be made with many time and technology constraints), the current ports are the ones you can find of Doom and Doom2 on Steam (added to the original DOSbox releases), Nintendo Switch, Xbox One/Series and PS4/5. I'll be comparing your observations with BFG with both the original Doom releases on DOS, and the current official ports.

 

The sound difference you are hearing is Doom's original pitch effects, which were in the original game. This is something GZDoom has disabled by default, however is part of the original code and wasn't even an option, which is why it made it into the subsequent ports. You may not notice this effect when playing in DOSBox because v1.9 actually broke this effect (due to an update in DMX). The current official ports provide this as an option as well:

The super shotgun was indeed a bug that manifested on the Original Xbox port due to a misunderstanding of the sound specs (almost all Doom sounds are 11kHz, except for the SSG and item respawn sound which are inconsistently 22kHz), causing the sound to be played back at half the speed, though this too is fixed in the current port.

 

As pointed out earlier, your understanding of how the music works isn't right. MIDI's use sound fonts and a lot of sound fonts are propriety, they are system and software dependent, you can't always get them to match. However as I pointed out before, the current ports use SC-55 MKII recordings now (for the official tracks) which are authentic to the original intended composition as done by Bobby Prince, which does not match the BFG versions at all.

 

Changing the resolution exhibits lots of problems. Doom's original renderer is very sensitive to resolution changes and eats up a lot of CPU time as well (it was after all made to be fast on a 25mhz 486 in 1993, at 320x200). The current port runs it at 853x400, and it's pretty much the way things have to be to keep the presentation and performance intact. GZDoom (the port you are for whatever reason comparing to) changes the renderer entirely but in doing so can't always accurately portray the original intended effects such as how the sprites clip (or rather don't). You'd be trading one issue for another no matter what you do.

 

You can absolutely change the controls on PC (Doing customizable controls on console is more complicated than you would think it sounds, due to how the controller has to interact with every UI and how multiple controllers and configs at once increases the complexity of binding rules, it barely works on Kex3 and is something we have to constantly worry about from start to end of development of any game.):

 

There is not and has never been a dev console in any version of Doom (and is most certainly not how you did multiplayer). This is a community source port thing that was invented to control the growing complexity (the first console was probably in DOSDoom or Legacy), it would have little to no function in original Doom, given it's straight forward nature. Nor is the number of features you complain you can't customize, though there is now an option for a crosshair. 

 

Implementing online multiplayer is incredibly complicated, you seem to grossly underestimate the problems. Of note, Doom's original netcode nowadays is a complete wash on modern connections with people using WiFi or even 4G modems, which Doom's netcode wasn't really designed for. It's a lockstep protocol, all sessions move at the speed of the slowest responding player and require all connections to constantly be sending and receiving inputs to and from all players at a constant 35hz, you'd think this would be easy enough, but curiously that's the one thing WiFi and 4G isn't designed to cope with, they handle everything has half-duplex bursts between sending and receiving and then to pack on a fair bit of latency on top, which really slows down the whole process and adds a good chunk of latency on top, which thus increases the input latency. If you wanted Doom multiplayer now, and for it to actually be enjoyable to play? They would need to rewrite the whole thing from scratch, with client prediction and full object serialization on top. That would be a rather large amount of technical work to accomplish.

 

There are no achievements for TNT and Plutonia because they aren't actually DLC. There are very particular policies for how you go about adding new achievements to existing games for the console platforms, it's not something you can just do.

 

No, they can't let people search for any mod. This is the original doom, only vanilla/limit removing mods work for a start (so levels, sprite sets and dehacked is all you got, and that dehacked part isn't even a given as it's not a native part of the original engine, Fraggle provided the support for that) and the mod you're showing off during that portion wouldn't even work as it's for basically an entirely different engine, and Bethesda have to host and moderate all of them (again, per console policies). It just simply can't work the way you think it would.

However as an aside, you can sideload whatever mods you like in the PC and Android version:

 

Red Cross isn't a trademark issue, it's an international treaty issue, one that video games and media was trivializing. Bethesda agreed to no longer do that, so here we are, that's why that changed.

 

I'm not really going to get into the Doom3 stuff, however I'll note that it's rather pointless. The Doom3 BFG edition was made explicitly for consoles period, it being on the PC was incidental, a lot of the changes were either technical (you can't simply run dynamic libraries on other platforms which the original engine relied on), performance (the changes to the ragdoll physics were performance related, Doom3's old physics engine was not fast and Carmack was gunning to 60FPS across the board on PS3 and Xbox360), console policy related (like the save game message, you need to indicate very clearly to the user when you're writing data), or simply just to help benefit the controls.

... Well except for the ammo and ROE changes, which still baffle us and I suspect just came down to someone wanting to play Doom3 Turbo.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Edward850

[Redneckerz]

OP, i think it might be clear to:

• Release the Doom 3 stuff as a separate video as its mostly on point (as noted by Mrthejosh)
• Re-do the Doom 1/2 video and start from a better point of reference. As you can tell, the majority of criticism falls on that starting point, for which you use GZDoom.
  • Even GZDoom dev's would have a hard time calling GZ vanilla-accurate. I get why you chose it (Popularity) but your details contest that choice
• Purely personal, but i dislike it when a video says ''x is downgraded''. In the case of Doom 3 one could argue that BFG was somewhat of a downgrade in the visual sense, but it also gained a lot of upgrades.
  • For Doom 1/Doom 2 however i am against the usage of ''downgrade'' in that context. In the day, Doom was a monumental technical achievement. Its like saying the OG Crysis was a downgrade, but on what? So, personally, i wouldn't use that word.

[Gustavo_Playz]

Unfortunately I’m not sure if I want to continue this, I simply don’t have the time to research every little spot on the dirty dish here, People have dislike bombed the video and all my other videos which really wasn’t necessary tbh, I have crap WiFi and have been using my iPad cellular data to upload these videos which now unfortunately has run out and I need to get more data, I also don’t want to have to re upload this 5 billion times over just because with each upload comes one mistake that turns people off, it’s also not really good for my health either, I’ve been staying up until 2 at night just to get these things done and correct as possible and usually get waken up at like 8 or 9 and rarely 10 so I barely get any rest, so idk I might just have to bite the bullet and accept defeat and considered this a failed video, maybe even a failed topic.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Gustavo_Playz

[Liberation]

Unfortunately this is not the sort of subject you can just jump into and make a video on, it does take a lot of research. You don't need to cross all the I's and dot all the T's but you do have to be pretty close. 

 

It is like anything historic, you need to get your facts right and when doing comparisons you need a good base line. GZDoom was not the right choice for this, and if you had used dos Doom, Doom95 or choc Doom, then your argument actually falls apart and you get the responses you have gotten. Gmanlives fell victim to this and ended up removing the video.

 

So, cut your loses and move on, learn from this and the next video you make will be alot better.

[Biodegradable]

21 minutes ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

I might just have to bite the bullet and accept defeat and considered this a failed video, maybe even a failed topic.

 

Hold on there, Sparky. Just because you goofed initially, doesn't mean you can't redo it bigger and better. Naturally, if you're feeling a little deflated about it right now, you can always come back to it later and be sure to take your time to research the topic properly so you can make the best video possible. I'm sorry if you've gotten the impression that we dislike your efforts, we just hate seeing blatant misinformation when there's so much of the real thing easily available for anyone to research. Personally, I want to see you succeed where Gmalives chose to give up because he's a lame shill who doesn't care enough at the end of the day. If you're passionate enough about the topic, then you should definitely take the time to better educate yourself on it and build the video from there. And if your research informs you enough that you no longer feel the need to make the video, then perhaps it may inspire you to tackle a different topic.

 

Please try not to feel completely discouraged because of this experience, fam.

[ketmar]

i can only add my voice to what @Biodegradable said. the initial reaction here may be slightly over the top, but it is mostly because people are often make mistakes, and then simply dismiss all criticism. it is not the case here, though (and those who are doing "dislike bombing" are not right, i believe). yes, getting all the facts right can be hard, and it's understandable that you may be exhausted right now. but i think that most people here really liked the way you dealt with the criticism.

 

we really love this game, and may overreact when someone gives incorrect information, but we really love when people are creating something for, or about Doom. so please, don't hold hard feelings over this... issue, we don't want you to go away disappointed or angry.

 

i'm saying "we" here, because i think that's what most people will agree with. sorry if that's not right, and somebody will not agree. but i soooo wanted to use "we" in this post... ;-)

[Gustavo_Playz]

Ngl tho, more research would help, it might also help if someone here could maybe collab with me in the future, as I’m mainly just an older teen that got into doom 2-3 years ago when I wanted to try something new rather than the same old cod and r6 and other mainstream video games shoved in my face, you just don’t see people around my age tryna get into something like making content on this and that may be why I didn’t put the thing together good in some areas. I’m not as experienced as people who have grown up with this.

[Gustavo_Playz]

Oh and hot take, but I do still believe that improvements could’ve been made to these ports that maybe have more features like gzdoom or something like that, that was sorta the goal but my wording and info on some parts really were contradictory.

 

Also this forum was nuts, it was controversial but it became a hot topic, meaning a popular one, I wasn’t expecting that, at least that’s sorta the benefit of controversy right? 🤗

[Jayextee]

4 minutes ago, Gustavo_Playz said:

I’m mainly just an older teen that got into doom 2-3 years ago when I wanted to try something new rather than the same old cod and r6 and other mainstream video games shoved in my face

 

So much respect for this, actually. I'm echoing what a couple of people have said here, but don't take the criticism in this thread too much to heart; it's apparent you've a good energy and good intentions, we're just more than wary of misinformation being spread around.

On the plus side, this forum (and doomwiki.org) is probably going to be invaluable in terms of research for future efforts; you ask a question about DOOM here, someone almost always knows the answer for sure -- we've got OGs who've been here since the beginning, there's a lot of collective knowledge here and most folk don't mind offering a little help here and there. :)

[roadworx]

hey, i just wanna pop in here and say that i have a huge amount of respect for you cuz of the way you handled all the criticism, and how you were willing to accept that you may not be right

[Gustavo_Playz]

I also am interested in being a game dev one day, maybe just as influential as Id, so learning info about a series with so much history is very helpful and influential to me for future careers and videos.