Should a wad have to be pistol start compatible?

[doom guy66]

I'm working on a wad with a friend and I'm pretty sure that it's not pistol start compatible, but I don't want the wad to suck because it's not compatible with pistol starting, so I was wondering if it mattered or not.

[SilentD00mer]

The maps are too hard for the pistol start? You give the player options to deal with the monsters, like a stronger weapon in the start area or any powerup to survive until he gets a stronger weapon? Can you give more details of your wad and why you think it's not pistol start compatible?

[doom guy66]

2 hours ago, SilentD00mer said:

Can you give more details of your wad and why you think it's not pistol start compatible?

It starts off mostly pistol start compatible in the first 5 maps I believe then in map06 you have to scavenge for ammo then in map07 I tried to make it pistol start compatible. But I feel like it's started to get less and less pistol start compatible. My friend made map04, map06, map08, and is working on map09. And last I checked they weren't really pistol start compatible but I don't wanna have them be too easy due to have plenty of weapons and ammo. I'll send it to you but it's not finished. 

EDIT: my friend pistol started map06 and said he finished the level with 2 health, 4 shells, 15 rockets (no rocket launcher), 20 bullets, 0 cells (only plasma rifle)0 armor
no supershotgun, no chainsaw, no bfg 

So I guess it's possible just really really difficult

Edited August 9, 2021 by doom guy66

[HAK3180]

Sure, it matters, but it's up to you. Just communicate what the expectations are, such as "balanced around continuous play only."

 

I think continuous or pistol start is preferable to trying to balance for both, especially in a wad with a high number of levels, and even more especially if there are not gonna be any resets, such as death exits.

 

Target source port may have something to say about it too. GZDoom features, for example, make it less of a pain to play a wad strictly continuously or strictly pistol starting. Between autosaves and forced inventory resets, this can be a lot more seamless than death exits, idclevs, and making sure to save manually every level. 

 

There are also some pretty simple ways to make a mapset that was designed for continuous a little more pistol friendly. You can start the player on a berserk in every level or a platform with ten stacked stimpacks that you can never get back to. You can make every level start like Icon of Sin: a room full of (roughly) all the supplies you have accumulated in previous levels. You can make a point to include every weapon pickup in every map that comes after a map in which that weapon was available (E.g. If the first freebie BFG is in Map 10, then have one somewhere in 11-32).

[PeterMoro]

In my mapping style : yes. 

 

In your mapping style : whatever you like.

[CorianderCastor]

No, but it tends to be easier to test/make if you do so.

[Murdoch]

5 hours ago, doom guy66 said:

I'm working on a wad with a friend and I'm pretty sure that it's not pistol start compatible, but I don't want the wad to suck because it's not compatible with pistol starting, so I was wondering if it mattered or not.

 

It's not a player choice, it's a map author choice. It is possible to do both to a degree. You could replace a few ammo pickups with an actual weapon and get much the same effect - continuous players get the ammo they need, pistol starters get the weapon and ammo they need. But if it's not viable for your vision then that's fine. Don't worry about it. Design it how you want to.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Murdoch

[Biodegradable]

Yeah, what my favourite horseman said: it's dealer's choice. It's all about artistic intent after all. If you want your WAD to be as accessible as possible to Doomers of many different playstyles, then balancing for both continuous and pistol-start is a good idea. However, if it compromises the way you want the WAD to progress and you have certains themes and such in mind, then don't worry about it. It's your WAD, so it's your rules.

[ketmar]

pistol start is overrated! ;-)

 

joking aside, balancing map around pistol start is not a requrement to have a good map, and not something you have to have for people to enjoy your map. just write in clear that mapset is balanced for continuous playing, so people will know what to expect.

[BoxY]

I feel like any wad that's balanced at all is automatically pistol start compatible because that's simply how you playtest the map in the editor, and if you're not doing that, then what are you doing that could replace that basic method? I think it's also impossible to just expect that continuous players could ever get a consistent experience you could balance intelligently around, for instance if guy A grabs the rocket launcher as expected on map05 and guy B accidentally walks past it and exits the map, then guy B is gonna be in a really shitty position if it turns out the next rocket launcher pickup is on map15, but making sure there's a rocket launcher everywhere it needs to be for a pistol start player will also fix player B's problems. The way people spend ammo is also super inconsistent and based on personal play style, for instance I'm an impatient little shit so if I'm ever given cells or rockets I usually just immediately use it on whatever is in front of me (and I guess partly because out of habit I pistol start everything so I'm used to not getting any reward for carrying resources to the exit), but I know there are plenty of people who are happy to pistol a baron to save resources even when they've had 100 rockets and 600 cells in their inventory for the past 10 maps. If you extend those two play styles over a whole wad then at some point the experiences will have diverged enough that the players are no longer playing the same game.

Edited August 9, 2021 by BoxY

[StarSpun5000]

I think a good idea would be to specify whether or not you think your wad is pistol start compatible. I like to play megawads pistol starting each map.

[msx2plus]

the beauty about balancing your wad for a recurring loadout at the start of each map (obviously more feature-heavy source ports let you do all kinds of wacky stuff (guilty)) is that you create a situation where you have an additional assist mode for less serious/experienced players - playing continuously w/ equipment carry-over. all you have to do to make your maps pistol start is think about what weapons you might want "carried over" from the previous map and feed them to the player organically - or i guess hell, pull a plutonia and drop all your weapons in a floating skull box lmao

 

by testing from your editor, as @BoxY mentioned, you'll come to the conclusion you need to relatively automatically and give everybody the most options without even thinking about cross-map balance. you totally can do it that way if you want, and it lends itself to more adventure-style design well, but on average accounting for pistol start just makes sense. if you don't and the player doesn't save, isn't the player just kinda boned unless they cheat or lose a lot of progress?

Edited August 15, 2021 by msx2plus
added shit