Regarding Sunlust

[AhryMahry]

Can someone explain to me, why Sunlust is soo well regarded?

I play doom since childhood, i love the game, i played many Wads, and not so long ago i learned about Eviternity, Ancient Aliens and Sunlust, first two absolutely rekindled my love for the game. I just got hooked. I actually played Eviternity for 3 times in a row.

But my god Sunlust? Wth is that thing? Why is it soo highly regarded? Both Ancient Aliens and Eviternity, has some, nasty encounters. And i love the difficulty of them, but sunlust, it is not difficult, it is BOOOORING. It started soo well, yes, it was hard, yes it had tricky encounters, but it was fun. But the further i go into Sunlust, the less fun it is, and more of a grind. 

Map 20 broke me, i'm done. Do you like being spawned in the middle of 100 enemies in a somewhat enclosed area, being constantly sprayed by a Cyberdemon. Don't worry, next encounter is.. An area with limited space for mobility, and a lot of enemies and arch vile. Oh btw, next area is... Limited mobility area(actually i liked the idea with slowly opening doors), and... Arch vies and cyberdemon. What next, oh yes lest spawn 1000 flying tomatoes, because YAY that fun isn't it. Btw here is 4 cyberdemons, rush for the button? Don't worry 2 cyber demons and arch viles. FUN. Besides that in a small areas it is just packed to the top with every possible annoying enemy placement.

I don't get it, i really don't. When i were playing SlaughterFest 2012, i really enjoyed it because every encounter felt like a puzzle. Here it is a puzzle. but it is a puzzle i solved 5 rooms ago, now it is just repeating same puzzle over and over and over again, with just escalating difficulty.

Maps degraded from an interesting visual threat with corridors and some option to explore, to a linear identical boring slaughter arenas. With nothing of interest to see or find or do.

After last 2 WADs i played was such a great treat of joy, this is probably one of the most grindiest, boring wad i played in my carrer as a doomer. Can someone explain this wad to me? Why is this considered good? 

[dmdr]

I liked Sunlust but didn't like Eviternity

 

some people enjoy different things to other people

[yakfak]

I'm sure you can guess the answer, which is: you like one type of combat, other players like another

[Albatross]

32 minutes ago, AhryMahry said:

Map 20 broke me, i'm done.

In Map20 people appreciate the oppressive atmosphere, the imposing architecture, the curvy geometry, the brutal fight in the western brick building... probably lots of smaller things.

 

You say you "love the difficulty" of AA and Eviternity, but for the authors of Sunlust those would be trivially easy; in terms of difficulty they are in completely different universes. So you can say "it is not difficult", but it's exactly that - Sunlust is above your skill level.

[Deadwing]

I haven't played Sunlust yet, but as others said, there are a lot of different ways to challenge a player fairly in Doom.

AFAIK, Sunlust is notorious in focusing on tight spaces in it setpieces.

 

Eviternity and Ancient Aliens indeed get a lot challenging, but on other hand they are a lot more straightfoward regarding this. (not much movement restriction, or crossfires, etc)

[Decay]

Eviternity is a wonderful set but I don't think it's hard at all, and I'm not a good doom player. The depth of challenge offered by wads is like an ocean, even with sunlust you will probably end up finding harder stuff if you look for it.

[ukiro]

I'm a pretty shitty player and obviously has some bias whenever Eviternity is mentioned, but I will say that I have a deep respect and admiration for Ribbiks' ability to design in a way that exploits Doom's inner workings, while also conveying really oppressive and menacing moods. The better you get as a player the more that kind of Doom Mastery gameplay appeals, I guess. (Edit: I should obviously also credit fellow Swede Dannebubinga for Sunlust; I was commenting on Ribbiks' overall body of work here.)

 

But being a decidedly mediocre player, I have not finished Sunlust and honestly don't plan to. There's no law saying everyone has to play it (or enjoy it). But I've watched others play it for tens of hours, including following daerik's legendary D2ALL attempts, and I totally see why it's so deeply appealing to players of that caliber.

Edited August 9, 2021 by ukiro

[P41R47]

@AhryMahry have you tried Sunder, Abaddon and Deus Vult II?
Those are other well regarded difficult mapsets.
Here are some mapsets that you may like if you seek for hard ones.

Most are above on difficulty to Eviternity and Ancient Aliens.
If you seek mapset on that same line, Valiant, Vanguard and Lunatic are fitting.
Maybe also Speed of Doom and Resurgence could be around the same kind of difficult.

As for why is Sunlust so well regarded, well its a subjetive matter, some like it, some not.
In terms of architecture, i found it atonishing. And that can't be denied, i think.
But as i don't enjoy much slaughter type of gameplay, as it becomes boring to me, but not because i am a good player, just because i prefer exploring and solving the map than fighting all the time.

[AhryMahry]

41 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

have you tried Sunder, Abaddon and Deus Vult II?

I have beaten Sunder and found. Sunder is better than Sunlust, but i still felt like it overstayed its welcome at some point for me.

I have played Valiant, SoD, Resurgence(this one i didn't really get into). Havent played Vanguard and Lunatic, guess add this to my to play list. Thx for recommendations.

[Decay]

53 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

His only grip seems to be that the encounters designed on Sunlust felt repetitive and not too much derivative one from another.

Honestly in a lot of maps a large majority of the time especially with a lot of monsters you can just run in a lot of circles without even firing and call it a day. Repetition in combat set ups is common in so many wads. If repetitive combat tropes are a problem they best get ready for many wads falling victim to that. Just move on and try something else, there's thousands of wads out there.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Decay

[DuckReconMajor]

2 minutes ago, Decay said:

Honestly in a lot of maps a large majority of the time especially with a lot of monsters you can just run in a lot of circles without even firing and call it a day.

 

Sometimes, but like, especially in a mapset like Sunlust the maps are designed in a way to prevent you from doing that.

Actually, OP specifically points out limited mobility areas, which are usually there to prevent constant circle-strafing.

 

How often are you saving @AhryMahry? I savescummed through Sunlust on UV and still found it a ton of fun

You could also try drastically changing your playstyle to see if it makes it more fun for you.

Aside from that, you're just not going to like some mapsets, and forcing yourself to like something you don't certainly isn't going to help

[BCHQ]

I'm a sucker for this kind of architecture and oppressive atmosphere. Basically this. Eviternity and skillsaw's WADs have a nicer flow and are more _fun_ to play, but I always find myself loading Sunder/Sunlust and suffering with a smile =) It made me a better player though.

[SaladStream]

2 hours ago, AhryMahry said:

this is probably one of the most grindiest, boring wad i played in my carrer as a doomer.

 

Have you tried HeLL rEvEaLeD?

 

If I'm being serious though it's not for everyone, nobody is forcing you to like it or play it again. We are lucky enough to have such a variety of wads this never becomes a problem, for example I didn't like the last episode of Ancient Aliens. Found it boring and repetitive where as I thought sunlust was engaging all the way through. Just play what you like =)

[Decay]

18 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

 

Sometimes, but like, especially in a mapset like Sunlust the maps are designed in a way to prevent you from doing that.

Actually, OP specifically points out limited mobility areas, which are usually there to prevent constant circle-strafing.

Sunlust specifically yes, I had to quickly revise my post to more broadly address "repetitive situations" generally. if tight situations are a repetitive "problem" in sunlust, there are other repetitive "problems" through many other wads, at which point complaining about sunlust's repetition problem is kind of silly.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Decay

[Daerik]

2 hours ago, AhryMahry said:

Can someone explain to me, why Sunlust is soo well regarded?

I play doom since childhood, i love the game, i played many Wads, and not so long ago i learned about Eviternity, Ancient Aliens and Sunlust, first two absolutely rekindled my love for the game. I just got hooked. I actually played Eviternity for 3 times in a row.

But my god Sunlust? Wth is that thing? Why is it soo highly regarded? Both Ancient Aliens and Eviternity, has some, nasty encounters. And i love the difficulty of them, but sunlust, it is not difficult, it is BOOOORING. It started soo well, yes, it was hard, yes it had tricky encounters, but it was fun. But the further i go into Sunlust, the less fun it is, and more of a grind. 

 

Sunlust combines fantastic visuals, music, and combat puzzles into one package. Ancient Aliens and Eviternity are typically regarded as good on visuals and music, but among high skill players their gameplay is frequently considered too easy. There aren't a lot of encounters that really demand anything of the player, which is perfectly fine if you're not looking for that.

 

2 hours ago, AhryMahry said:

Map 20 broke me, i'm done. Do you like being spawned in the middle of 100 enemies in a somewhat enclosed area, being constantly sprayed by a Cyberdemon. Don't worry, next encounter is.. An area with limited space for mobility, and a lot of enemies and arch vile. Oh btw, next area is... Limited mobility area(actually i liked the idea with slowly opening doors), and... Arch vies and cyberdemon. What next, oh yes lest spawn 1000 flying tomatoes, because YAY that fun isn't it. Btw here is 4 cyberdemons, rush for the button? Don't worry 2 cyber demons and arch viles. FUN. Besides that in a small areas it is just packed to the top with every possible annoying enemy placement.

I don't get it, i really don't. When i were playing SlaughterFest 2012, i really enjoyed it because every encounter felt like a puzzle. Here it is a puzzle. but it is a puzzle i solved 5 rooms ago, now it is just repeating same puzzle over and over and over again, with just escalating difficulty.

Maps degraded from an interesting visual threat with corridors and some option to explore, to a linear identical boring slaughter arenas. With nothing of interest to see or find or do.

After last 2 WADs i played was such a great treat of joy, this is probably one of the most grindiest, boring wad i played in my carrer as a doomer. Can someone explain this wad to me? Why is this considered good? 

 

It's interesting that you consider Slaughterfest 2012's encounters 'puzzles', when the majority of that set is giving you an abundance of space and resources and letting you mindlessly spam. Do you have any examples of encounters in sf2012 you consider puzzles?

 

Regarding Sunlust supposedly repeating itself; it definitely uses a lot of higher tier monsters repeatedly, but they're always in different configurations and positions that perpetually demand different things from the player. I spent 6 months running the mapset and I'm not immediately able to pick two encounters that are most similar to one another. Sunlust does like to limit the players space frequently, but thats basically the only way you can actually present a genuine challenge to a competent player.

[AhryMahry]

25 minutes ago, Daerik said:

Do you have any examples of encounters in sf2012 you consider puzzles?

The one i can remember from the get go, there was a very cramped room which slowly opens up by rising pillars. It was fun, and interesting. Sorry i played it in like 2015 or something.

 

27 minutes ago, Daerik said:

but they're always in different configurations and positions that perpetually demand different things from the player.

I marginally disagree with this statement, and this is the core of my problem with sunlust. It is not different configurations. It is smaller room, cyberdemon(s) and/or archviles, add optionally someone else. After playing sunlust 3-5 maps before i quit, i feel like this picture just engraved into my mind. Press the button, Cyberdemon appear, from some other place bunch of spooky skeletons are running. Press the button, archviles appear, bunch of spooky skeletons spawns. Move 5 meters, cyberdemon appear... Repeat ad nouseum.

It is not that it is hard,  it is boring. I killed cyber in the cramped room while dodging archies or spooky skeletons, like 5 times already, please, do something else. 

[KeaganDunn]

Hate to toot my own horn again, but Sunlust was my first Doom PWAD. Had it not been for the fantastic and diverse visuals as well as the clever combat setpieces, I would've quit that set a few maps in, it being just a bit out of my skill level at the time. I never finished SF2012. Like @BCHQ said, I suffer with a smile when playing Sunlust, along with some other Ribbiks mapsets.

 

Perhaps I'm biased in that regard, but to be fair, my first and second time playing through Sunlust I couldn't remember very many of the maps afterwards. But like all mapsets out there, if you give it another chance and dig a little deeper into it, you might end up finding something to like about it and find it more memorable. 

I'm that way with Stardate 20x7 - it's brutal, I had a bad time playing it for the first time, and I've never finished all the maps on UV, but I've come to appreciate its clever combat and artistic visuals. I admire the set but avoid banging my head against the wall over it.

 

@Daerik said it all - limited spaces are the only way to make any encounter more dangerous, and after playing through a set quite a few times, I too have trouble finding encounters that are one and the same (or only use high-tier monsters for that matter).

In fact, @Insane_Gazebo has stated his motivation of Sunder in the Hellforge discord server, reading - "I hoped by making [slaughtermaps] pretty, I might attract people who would otherwise be intimidated by the difficulty and get them to improve as a player."

 

Everyone's got their own preference and gameplay style, so I'm sorry if you had a bad time with Sunlust. But I hope you realize that there is definitely more than meets the eye. I hope you'll give it another chance, but no one's really saying that you have to. :)

Edited August 9, 2021 by Dunn (& Dunn)

[Dubbag]

Sunlust is a giant combat puzzle. Every encounter is so perfectly tweaked that there is a method to each one. Anyone who knows me know I'm a crappy player but even I love Sunlust. And there are so many WADs that I have never finished because of difficulty but I still love them Sunlust being one. Going Down is another one I love but never finished.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Dubbag

[roadworx]

47 minutes ago, AhryMahry said:

I marginally disagree with this statement, and this is the core of my problem with sunlust. It is not different configurations. It is smaller room, cyberdemon(s) and/or archviles, add optionally someone else. After playing sunlust 3-5 maps before i quit, i feel like this picture just engraved into my mind. Press the button, Cyberdemon appear, from some other place bunch of spooky skeletons are running. Press the button, archviles appear, bunch of spooky skeletons spawns. Move 5 meters, cyberdemon appear... Repeat ad nouseum.

It is not that it is hard,  it is boring. I killed cyber in the cramped room while dodging archies or spooky skeletons, like 5 times already, please, do something else. 

the composition of monsters means pretty much nothing, it's all about how they're used, which is the beauty of doom's bestiary. it's incredibly versatile, and you can make loads of different scenarios using the exact same monsters over and over again. as an example, an arch-vile in a cage in the center of the room with rev snipers placed all around will play completely differently than if there were a small horde of revs and an archie roaming freely.

 

the reason arch-viles and revs are used so frequently is due to how versatile those specific monsters are - in fact, they're up there as some of the most versatile overall. the amount of different situations with different gameplay you can create with them using different layouts is absurdly high.

[Cammy]

I recently started replaying Sunlust on UV after previously having beaten it on HMP - which is to say I'm not that good at Doom, and trying to improve. Sunlust kicks my ass all over the place and I love it. There is of course no holy commandment which states thou shalt not diss Sunlust, or any wad for that matter - you are fully within your right to not enjoy it, but since you asked for someone to explain why Sunlust is looked at so fondly, I'll explain why I personally adore this wad.

 

You make a point of mentioning the cramped space, and since you enjoy the similarly-difficult but much more voluminous Sunder, I get the impression your style of play is big on circle strafing and crowd control. Sunlust quite rarely tasks you with that, and in fact is much more often geared towards challenging you to survive without it. It limits your space and frequently uses bunched-up single enemy types to discourage excessive infighting, leaving you with a tight and dangerous puzzle. In that regard it's a little like Plutonia, but taken to the logical extreme. You do not have permission to skirt around and "stir the pot", so to speak - the only way to win is to engage. To dodge, to shoot, to survive. And that makes just about every combat engagement memorable and satisfying to beat - from the triple Cyberdemon and imp swarm in MAP10 to the bifurcated teleportation hall in MAP19, and of course the Archvile carousel room in MAP29. Sunlust reigns king in setpiece combat.

 

However, despite its draconian space constriction and enemy placement, Sunlust tends to be fairly generous with health and ammo. It's not like the HR2 maps where ammo is literally everywhere of course, but you're unlikely to be put in a situation where playing the map the wrong way will leave you so choked of supplies that victory is impossible. And that is critical. The goal of Sunlust is not ground-out perfection, but creative survival. You won't need to reset and rewind and savescum until you find out exactly how the mappers intended you to beat fights - you are given a slew of tough situations and it is up to you to find a way out of them with creative thinking and skillful execution. Sunlust is ready to accommodate whatever your exact methods are. It's obvious that they were shooting for difficulty when they made this megawad and they could have easily made it MUCH harder by putting tighter restrictions on your supplies - that they didn't demonstrates that your victory was still always their intent. Trust me, absolutely nothing on this earth compares to the euphoric adrenaline rush from beating a big Sunlust fight on your try.

 

Sunlust is also one of the most aesthetically sensational megawads there is. Several different themes and color palettes, a deft mix of brutal steel with sprawling natural landscapes, lighting to die for, buckets of spectacular visual designs and skillfully-implemented mapping tricks, and flawless music choices that enrich and define each map. And every map is full of unique secrets that are organically incorporated into both the environment and the gameplay, rewarding - but not requiring - a sharp eye. And then there's little things like the fun as hell fight in MAP07 for finding all the Mancubus secrets, or the way MAP28's giant secret battle rewards your survival by giving you the opportunity to take your inventory into MAP29 instead of pistol-starting... or stewboy's Desk Lamp, etc. etc., it's such a great wad. I love it to pieces.

[AhryMahry]

24 minutes ago, roadworx said:

the reason arch-viles and revs are used so frequently is due to how versatile those specific monsters are - in fact, they're up there as some of the most versatile overall. the amount of different situations with different gameplay you can create with them using different layouts is absurdly high.

you are correct, but Sunlust doesn't do that at all. It just spam the same trick again and again and again. Here is the key. You pick it up, cyber spawns behind you, and bunch of revs run at you from the side. You open the door with this key, cyber + bunch of revs in a small room. You move to different room, get closed in a small room 6 archies and bunch of revs. Like yeah sure you can do soo much with them but Sunlust ends up doing 1 trick over and over and over again. It started soo good mate. Like begining of the campaign it has variety and a lot of time, not everything is another cramped room with cyber and archie party. Somewhere after 10or so maps, it became this. Like i don't even guess what will be behind next room, there will be another cyber or archie. I'll take BFG/Rockets remove Archie, and based on my position either remove Cyber first or kill trash first. That it. I never feel like i'm solving something, i'm snoozing through the map, dying to not knowing where the cyber/archie will spawn, not to clever placement.

[galileo31dos01]

I would like to add that if the focus is much higher on particular enemies alone and themselves, over the richness of setups in which they're used along with or without company, or over other monsters abilities, maybe there's something else that needs to be worked on with those enemies, which the wad could be showing you. 

 

Sunlust's priority is to check on skills, awareness, resolution capacity, and while there it's no less important to have a keen eye for the beautiful visuals, and where there's failure, you get taught a new thing on each attempt so as long as you take the lesson with a resolute mindset. Finding this not appealing is by all means valid and you aren't entitled to force yourself to like something you don't, but to me this looks more like rant over two monsters when sunlust puts a well earned tick in variety of species and scenarios.

 

One of the fights that I struggled the most doesn't even use cyberdemons and/or archviles, in map 25 I think, there's a stairs in L shape with imps and spectres spawning on each end, meanwhile mancubi peppering from a distance and me trying to see the spectres before my finger pushed the key so I'd blow myself up, that's a very nasty combination there. On the other hand, it's true that archviles reign in multiple cases, yet the setups always differ in, at the very least, one significant detail from each other, and sunlust is one of those that succeeds at breaking the consensus of typical priorities. I'm also having a hard time to remember where there's even such a thing as "pick up key, cyber spawns behind you" in the first 20 maps...

 

So, I'm curious of a thing, what skill setting were you playing on?

[maxmanium]

I'll be honest: if Sunlust UV is above my skill level, I don't want to be skilled. Seems just torturous.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

It took me a few tries to get into Sunlust, but I ended up loving it. Sometimes pieces of art in general that you didn't like at first end up being your favorites. Sunlust, especially its later maps, are tightly constructed puzzles. You have to change your mindset when playing it. Awesome geometry, music, and visual style. I don't think it's really oppressive like others have said. I think it's morbidly relaxing, like being the boxer and the bag at the same time. 

 

I'm also a big fan of Swim With the Whales.

Edited August 9, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Lucky_Edie]

What source port are you using?

[Jacek Bourne]

Sunlust is very well designed. Your tastes in a mapset however cannot always align with the designers intent. In my case, despite how well designed Ancient Aliens by skillsaw is, I do not enjoy it at all. It all comes down to your tastes in doom. Another thing. If you play a map or mapset far above your skill level, you will not enjoy it regardless of how well designed it may be. If something is too difficult then you will most likely become frustrated far more easily than someting far easier.

[Shepardus]

While we're on the subject of Sunlust hot takes, here's mine: Sunlust is good, but Crumpets is better.

 

That being said, I've only played Sunlust on HNTR difficulty, and that was two years ago.

 

2 hours ago, maxmanium said:

I'll be honest: if Sunlust UV is above my skill level, I don't want to be skilled. Seems just torturous.

Sunlust is hard, but I wouldn't call it torturous. Ribbiks has plenty of wads that fit that description much, much better.

[Fairen]

Because whenever something is regarded as "hardcore", there are people who adamantly defend it because they want to perceive themselves (and be perceived) as "hardcore" as well. They need to convince themselves it is masterful design because, if it is not masterful, then they put up with repetitive monster encounters and heavy trial-and-error gameplay for no good reason.

 

4 hours ago, Cammy said:

There is of course no holy commandment which states thou shalt not diss Sunlust

Oh yes there is, because the one time I criticized it, I had a bunch of people here flipping out and jumping down my throat for not worshipping Sunlust.

 

3 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

to me this looks more like rant over two monsters when sunlust puts a well earned tick in variety of species and scenarios.

Almost every level in Sunlust past the early-game features an encounter that is just a stupid number of revenants. Nothing strategic about their placement whatsoever; it is simply a massive horde of revenants. It is a not a puzzle, because in most of these instances, if you do not take out the BFG and hold down the fire button, you will almost certainly be overwhelmed and killed.

 

The heart of the matter is that people are so invested in thinking they're good by saying Sunlust is good that they delude themselves about its depth and design, then lash out at every instance of people pointing out what Sunlust really is: a WAD that doesn't know how to create actual challenge without cheap monster closets and spawn-ins, that thinks "spam the BFG to not die" is a deep puzzle and then repeats it 100 times over the course of the WAD, and thinks creative encounters amount to "what if we have X cyberdemons and Y revenants this time instead of A cyberdemons and B revenants!".

[Shepardus]

Nice strawman.

[Decay]

Imagine being genuinely upset over a pwad for Doom II