Plutonia's odd map rotation

[Rudolph]

Going through The Plutonia Experiment again, I cannot help but feel weird about Plutonia's map rotation. To put it bluntly, it feels so all over the place, with no clear difficulty and thematic progression, leading to significant difficulty spikes followed by maps that feel weirdly easy and straightforward in contrast. Even the setting gets so inconsistent: after the initial jungle/techbase levels, the mapset seems to randomly alternate between hellish levels, urban maps and tech bases, to the point where MAP28 and MAP29 feel like they could have been placed much earlier in the map rotation.

 

Did the Casali Brothers ever explain why Plutonia turned out to be this way?

[Doomkid]

Many of the maps existed in some form before they started working on Plutonia as we now know it. Other than some "slight jungle theming" to give the first episode some sense of thematic cohesion, it's basically a set of challenging arenas the Casalis made compiled into a megawad.

 

The texturing is pretty much always somewhere between competent and stylish, and I can't think of any maps that are "ugly", but that's really all the thought that was seemingly put into progression, theme, etc. The story is even more incidental and basic than the standard Doom and Doom2 fare. Plutonia, at it's core, is really just a collection of maps for people who wanted something truly harder than Doom 2, and the green vines/brown bricks and dirt theme just suited a fair few of them well.

 

Not knocking Plutonia for this - there's nothing wrong with a mapset being more of the pure, kinda "arcadey" mindset where the story and narrative don't matter at all and it's strictly about putting your skills to the test. If anything, I'd argue the majority of megawads of the last 10 years follow this line of thinking more closely than the Doom1 way with an overworld map, clear sense of theme-per-episode and sense of visual narrative, story that actually slightly matters, etc.

 

As for the difficulty specifically, I think it being a bit "all over the place" in terms of sheer hardness per map is a good thing. The ebbs and flows make it far less exhausting. While I don't think the maps were too worried about visual theme beyond just "it looks good and fairly stylish", I'd argue that the ups and downs in progression were, for the most part, fully intentional to avoid burning the player out.

[msx2plus]

1 minute ago, Doomkid said:

The ebbs and flows make it far less exhausting.

this is a huge thing people seem to overlook in difficulty curves - it's not about going up up up up, it's about reaching a new peak, then plateauing for a brief period, declining a bit, then rising again. plutonia mostly nails this thought there are some exceptions.

 

regarding the general lack of strong theme, i think this was a bit of an issue with doom in general until later in the 90s when visual storytelling really started to pull through in WADs. i've mentioned this elsewhere, but plutonia and TNT are early examples of gameplay-focused and atmosphere-focused design in level packs, and while TNT is also all over the place, its levels are more keen on telling a story. i don't think too many people were fussed about this aspect in 94-96, though.

[Jayextee]

25 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

 

Did the Casali Brothers ever explain why Plutonia turned out to be this way?

 

Scripture states:

...with 1990's tools, no less. I doubt there was time to refine the overall structure into a smooth curve, but as noted above it's probably for the best they didn't.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

As for the difficulty specifically, I think it being a bit "all over the place" in terms of sheer hardness per map is a good thing. The ebbs and flows make it far less exhausting. While I don't think the maps were too worried about visual theme beyond just "it looks good and fairly stylish", I'd argue that the ups and downs in progression were, for the most part, fully intentional to avoid burning the player out.

Yes and no, I would say. While I welcome breaks from an otherwise irritating difficulty, I find way too many levels to feel like penultimate levels and as such I have to sometimes fight the urge to just skip entire maps because I just want to be done with the mapset already. It is a similar issue I have with Doom II, but Plutonia cranks it up to eleven with its difficulty.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Rudolph

[P41R47]

10 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

It is a similar issue I have with Doom II, but Plutonia cranks it up to eleven with its difficulty.

Doom 2 never felts like penultime level until map29 :/
One of the few maps that may be difficult on the whole set, and mostly because it uses verticallity in a way no other map did before it.

Plutonia is dick style from the beggining and is proud of it.
Certainly the ebbs and flow on it are a reall bless, because, without them, all maps would be penultime level syndrome non-stop :P

[Rudolph]

17 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Doom 2 never felts like penultime level until map29 :/

MAP28 definitely feels like the penultimate level, even more so thanks to the "Getting Too Tense" track.

 

So much so that in my personal MIDI reassignment mod, I reallocated the track to MAP29 instead.

[msx2plus]

36 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

irritating difficulty

what difficulty are you playing on? generally speaking if you're playing just slightly beyond your skill level (the best way to play imo, pushing your envelope just a touch) it shouldn't be irritating so much as invigorating. if deaths feel like "come on man fuck this" instead of "damn! ok let's go again" you're probably pushing yourself too hard. absolutely no shame in playing on HNTR or HMP if UV is just annoying - it's about having fun, and if pushing yourself is fun you have to find a way of doing it that doesn't just piss you off - i've definitely ruined games in the past for myself by more or less bullying myself into playing the hardest difficulty or learning high-level speed tech trash. the only people that'll ever give you shit for not playing something on UV are the people who can barely beat it themselves and want to feel like they're in some kind of special club when in reality they're just self-exiling to look cool lol

 

anyways that was a tangent but yea the word "irritating" stuck out to me and i've been there

[GarrettChan]

Don't know why everybody thinks a mapset should have a flow of "difficulty progression" or something... TBH, Plutonia is done by 2 people in such a short time, these so called inconsistency is sort of just a thing. Even Doom 2 has a lot of "lackluster" maps in the mix and some of them also rotates strangely.

 

I'm curious what levels you consider they are sorta a penultimate levels?

Edited August 18, 2021 by GarrettChan

[Skronkidonk]

Now that you mention it... the map slots are kinda weird.

Whenever I played through I just went into the wad expecting to get my butt handed to and nothing else.

But looking at the maps now it is definitely out of place.

I always enjoyed the style and gameplay of Plutonia though. Overgrown bases is a theme I absolutely love and I personally think Plutonia is the perfect set of difficulty.

[Rudolph]

35 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

I'm curious what levels you consider they are sorta a penultimate levels?

Off the top of my head, MAP24: The Final Frontier and MAP28: Anti-Christ.

[vdgg]

One thing for sure, they tried to alternate Milo/Dario maps: there is never a streak of three maps in a row by the same author.

[GarrettChan]

56 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Off the top of my head, MAP24: The Final Frontier and MAP28: Anti-Christ.

Understandable. Plutonia Map24 is kind of a homage to Doom 2 Map29, and Map28 feels like something, but I can't tell on top of my head. Probably it's HR Map24 did something similar to Plutonia Map28, not Plutonia doing something similar to others so my brain got messed up.

 

Though, I would say it's more like a penultimate level in a scope... In Doom 2's size or design, I would say yeah, these 2 levels look like penultimate levels (Map28 a bit more because Map24 doesn't have a lot of kills), but with Plutonia Map29, I would say these are relatively "small" in a way... I guess in this kind of saying, maybe you'll feel Map15 is one as well? As it has boss monster and it's actually pretty hard.

 

Have to say, Plutonia levels are not stingy about boss monsters, and most of the time you have to fight them while Doom 2 usually gives you an Invul or you can just easily skip them.

[KeaganDunn]

The lack of a difficulty curve and a mostly-consistent theme are two reasons why I prefer TNT over Plutonia. From what I can remember, the latter is dickish from the start and never really lets up. I've played Plutonia all the way through twice, and that was a year ago - blind run on HMP and a second run on UV. I don't remember enjoying it in either playthrough, but maybe I'll give it another run soon.

I do remember MAP29 being somewhat easier than anything else, and I found Go 2 It to be underwhelming compared to the PWADs I had played so far at the time. On the other hand, I still have nightmares about that invisible bridge room in Aztec.

 

Although to be fair, yeah, Plutonia is a megaWAD from the 90s made in four months' time - the Casalis did what they could with the time and tools they had, but every time I think of Plutonia, I think of MAP15: Twilight.

[Rudolph]

Also, what is bothering me about MAP29: Odyssey of Noises is that it feels more like Plutonia's take on Doom II's MAP13: Downtown.

 

The map is fine, but it does not feel at all like the final map before the Icon of Sin.

[Rudolph]

Anyway, this is not to say that I dislike Plutonia or anything. In fact, I have been replaying it a lot lately, possibly as a result of seeing Dario Casali tackle Plutonia 2, and I have to say, the mapset is really starting to grow on me. I still wish there could have been some sense of progression, but for the most part, it feels like a tighter, better-looking and better-designed Doom II, as quite a few levels do look and feel familiar. I guess in many ways, it is to Doom II what The Lost Levels are to Super Mario Bros!

Edited November 7, 2021 by Rudolph

[Maximum Matt]

On 8/19/2021 at 3:32 AM, Rudolph said:

MAP28 definitely feels like the penultimate level, even more so thanks to the "Getting Too Tense" track.

 

So much so that in my personal MIDI reassignment mod, I reallocated the track to MAP29 instead.

Sewers? Aw hell no

On 8/19/2021 at 10:07 AM, Rudolph said:

Also, what is bothering me about MAP29: Odyssey of Noises is that it feels more like Plutonia's take on Doom II's MAP13: Downtown.

 

The map is fine, but it does not feel at all like the final map before the Icon of Sin.

Maaaaan, Odyssey Of Noises is one of the greatest Doom maps ever made

[Rudolph]

14 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Maaaaan, Odyssey Of Noises is one of the greatest Doom maps ever made

I did not say it is not a good map, quite the contrary. I just do not understand why it was used as Plutonia's penultimate level.

[Azure_Horror]

Odyssey of Noises is like Plutonia City: a city full of nasty Plutonia encounters.

It is basically a celebration of all things Plutonian, arranged into a magnificent city map. Slot 29 fits perfectly, IMHO.

 

On 8/18/2021 at 10:35 PM, GarrettChan said:

... I guess in this kind of saying, maybe you'll feel Map15 is one as well? As it has boss monster and it's actually pretty hard. ...

Funnily enough, I always considered map15 to be on an easier side. There are just so many rich secrets! You can facetank about 3 or 4 deadly fights, and even than you will have resourses to spare.

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, Azure_Horror said:

Funnily enough, I always considered map15 to be on an easier side. There are just so many rich secrets! You can facetank about 3 or 4 deadly fights, and even than you will have resourses to spare.

Well yeah, if you knew the map inside out, then the map is not difficult at all, but the map itself just punishes cover shooting from a blind playthrough standpoint, so I can see a lot of people complaining about it.

[Sergeant G]

Gotta say, I much prefer the rising and falling difficulty levels approach over some of the too easy to almost impossible linear progressions I've had to play through lately. 

Bloodstain comes to mind. Mind you, I like Bloodstain but it starts easy and doesn't end so. The last 4 or 5 levels are an exhausting gauntlet. A couple of breaks along the way would have made the ascent easier.