New rule against offsite harassment

[Bridgeburner56]

2 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

For example of this, some time ago there was a thread that become a fight between users, and nobody come to close it or send warnings for almost like 4 hours.
It was a sunday, a crystal clear sunday before covid. And andministrators and moderators are humans. So this slipped under the radar of all the moderators, too.

Casually, one of the admins come back to check their inbox, and saw what happened.
Thread closed, obviously.
But this kind of things could happend, thats my point.

So abusive behaviour could be happend, too, and nobody noticing, especially if the person in question feels abused and is afrad of what happened.

This wouldn't be a change in the base operating procedures though, that's just something getting missed for a time. Which will 100% happen, especially on a forum this big (which is why the report button exists. The report might not get seen straight away but it will get seen).

[JezChrist]

1 minute ago, Killer5 said:

This is completely on topic because people consider this hate speech.

Not us.

Don't do it, that's all.

[rehelekretep]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

English is not my first language. I always think "they" is a plural form.

yeah its both which can be a bit confusing. context helps.

[msx2plus]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

English is not my first language. I always think "they" is a plural form.

in english it can be plural or singular, some languages are fully gendered, some not at all - but you can apply the singular to english based on contextual clues. if we're talking about one person and we say (name) followed by (they), we're still talking about the person. i totally get that (especially coming from a fully gendered language) it can be a headache, but with exposure it gets EZ

[GarrettChan]

2 minutes ago, rehelekretep said:

i read an interesting point about the mis-gendering thing that helped me be a bit more understanding: as a man, imagine (or maybe you dont have to!) you looked quite like a woman, and when introduced to you, people said she/her. you then told them: sorry, im actually a man, so could you call/refer to me as so (him/his), and they replied with "no you're a woman" and kept calling you she/her. you would be quite offended and personally affronted.

 

Not this case because sometimes the first time I called somebody wrong, and they reacted with super hostile sentences, nothing like "sorry, I'm a man" kind of deal. Then I don't know whose fault is here anymore.

[rehelekretep]

well yeah that's their problem then, just move on - some people are touchy

[Killer5]

@JezChrist

Right. When have I done this on this site?

 

But I could be banned if my opinion is viewed as bigotry to some mod on this forum if they see me speak about it somewhere else on the internet. This is ridiculous.

[msx2plus]

Just now, rehelekretep said:

well yeah that's their problem then, just move on - some people are touchy

basically this - i can't speak for all queer folks and i understand why some people are pretty fed up, but (from the perspective of said queer person) it always pays to be helpful instead of angry, especially knowing that in other languages and cultures this kind of thing is handled totally differently.

[NuMetalManiak]

I'm not that touchy on pronoun usage or what not unless people are being malicious about it.

[JezChrist]

2 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

@JezChrist

Right. When have I done this on this site?

 

But I could be banned if my opinion is viewed as bigotry to some mod on this forum if they see me speak about it somewhere else on the internet. This is ridiculous.

I think you misread my post, I never said you did. I said you shouldn't do it.

 

PS: Lets stop this debate here please btw. We are getting more and more offtrack. Its better if we stop before it goes out of control.

Edited August 22, 2021 by JezChrist
add PS

[P41R47]

3 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

This is completely on topic because people consider this hate speech or bigotry. Both have come up in this thread.

proofs may be needed of the harrasment and for the hate speech happening.

If someone and their discord channel start to, politely, talk about a sensible topic, and people denouce them here.
When they show the proof that there was a case of harassement or hate speech, then it will be taken in account.

 

Some people is indeed sensible to certain topics and don't want to be part of the talking, or being associated with people that talk about it.
But if the proof they offer, doesn't show any kind of harassement or hate speech, i suposse, it would be talked with the one reporting it.

It would be a case per case basis, i think, because if not, things will be far worser than actually are.

[P41R47]

6 minutes ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

This wouldn't be a change in the base operating procedures though, that's just something getting missed for a time. Which will 100% happen, especially on a forum this big (which is why the report button exists. The report might not get seen straight away but it will get seen).

yeah, i agree.
But if the person being abusive is a moderator/administrator?
And if the user knows it and is afraid of reporting it?

If the user in question being abused feels afraid of reporting, what do you think the other member around would feel?
Most of them will also be confused and will not know what to do.

And so, thats is how things really happened here for long time.

[Killer5]

'But if the proof they offer, doesn't show any kind of harassement or hate speech, i suposse, it would be talked with the one reporting it.'

 

This person might consider what I said here to be hate speech. Would you ban me? This is the problem. And this is just one example.

[JezChrist]

Just now, P41R47 said:

yeah, i agree.
But if the person being abusive is a moderator/administrator?
And if the user knows it and is afraid of reporting it?

If the user in question being abused feels afraid of reporting, what do you think the other member around would feel?
Most of them will also be confused and will not know what to do.

And so, thats is how things really happened here for long time.

The fact that they are multiple mods and admins should counter this eventuality...

Otherwise the site will have to be abandonned if all the admins thelselves start to do mad stuff.

[Snaxalotl]

Just now, Killer5 said:

'But if the proof they offer, doesn't show any kind of harassement or hate speech, i suposse, it would be talked with the one reporting it.'

 

This person might consider what I said here to be hate speech. Would you ban me? This is the problem. And this is just one example.

Do you really think the mods here are going to chase every little breadcrumb and ban everyone for the smallest things?

[Major Arlene]

I'm just going to take a moment to reiterate that this is not a retroactive policy, and not for blanket statements or mild disagreements. this is for targeted, continued harassment against an individual user that resides on this forum, and has been reported by that targeted individual, as such.

[Killer5]

After what we saw the past few days? Yes.

[Snaxalotl]

Just now, Killer5 said:

After what we saw the past few days? Yes.

Better pack your bags then if you think you're bound to get banned

[Murdoch]

5 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

@JezChrist

Right. When have I done this on this site?

 

But I could be banned if my opinion is viewed as bigotry to some mod on this forum if they see me speak about it somewhere else on the internet. This is ridiculous.

 

You are missing the point completely. What someone chooses to believe they are gender wise is not your problem. It affects your life in no way, shape or form. You may disagree with the concept, fine. Just don't be a harassing dickhead to people who do, offsite or on. It's really not difficult to comprehend. Exercise some understanding and respect to people with different views.

I am forever saying this. Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom from consequences.

[leodoom85]

Ok..........................................

 

It's basically the rule that damage done outside of this place is forbidden and punished thanks to the consequences.

This seems a rule that, albeit clear, it still has holes that can be used as an advantage for specific situations. And honestly, this is a real shame that this action happens because of a fucking few that we all have to pay it.

Look, I know that some rules exist to keep the harmful things on check but this was something that I didn't expected at all. Obviously, I'm against harassment of any kind, but still, it fucking sucks that we reached this moment.

 

It's sad at this point. The harmful won to some extent and the rest will have to be more cautious now, even if common sense is at mandatory here to keep some peace around here.

Oh well...

 

[P41R47]

12 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

'But if the proof they offer, doesn't show any kind of harassement or hate speech, i suposse, it would be talked with the one reporting it.'

 

This person might consider what I said here to be hate speech. Would you ban me? This is the problem. And this is just one example.

if the proof that the person reporting brings doesn't show you  attacking that person directly, or pursuing it, i don't see why you should be banned.

 

10 minutes ago, JezChrist said:

The fact that they are multiple mods and admins should counter this eventuality...

Otherwise the site will have to be abandonned if all the admins thelselves start to do mad stuff.

but that happened, because, look how strange the world is, there was not only one moderator being abusive, but two or more, too.

what happends in that case?
if there is a good amount of members of the moderating team being abusive, to whom you report?
to the administrators, of course.

But administrators are not usually around, so the answer to this may come with a lot of time.
And also, seeing a good amount of members of the moderating staff having a bad behaviour and other moderators around maybe not being abusive but doing nothing against the moderator being abusive, what do you think the other members seeing that would think?
That maybe, the administrators are on their side. And maybe there is no use on reporting

how do you think the members who saw that happening would feel?
afraid.

and that already happened.

Edited August 23, 2021 by P41R47

[Devalaous]

I may be late to this part of the thread as its flowing quite quickly, but I think the important part of misgendering is reading the intent. How you speak to people is important. Not everyone is going to attack or ban over a modest honest mistake, but if your rude about it or speak aggressively, thats a different story.

 

My partner is a furry and pulled me into their social groups and I had to learn a lot REAL fast about incredibly vast gender stuff and how to speak to people on that better. I've stepped on more than a few landmines there, but ive always been polite, even when dealing with unreasonably angry people. I have never had lasting issues afterward.

[Snaxalotl]

6 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

No. You are wrong. It does affect my life and many others.

 

For example in California they allow men who say they are trans to go into a female area of a spa. Or allow trans women in prisons (guess what the women they are in cells with are getting pregnant).

 

This forum is now affecting my enjoyment of the internet.

so you want beefy post op trans men in those spas instead? believe it or not trans people want to be left alone and live their lives like normal people, you know... because they are normal people.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Snaxalotl
grammar

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, Devalaous said:

Not everyone is going to attack or ban over a modest honest mistake, but if your rude about it or speak aggressively, thats a different story.

That's basic common sense right there...being a dick leads to a bad decision. Simple.

[LexiMax]

1 minute ago, Killer5 said:

This forum is now affecting my enjoyment of the internet. 

 

You have won the "funniest thing I've heard all day" award.

[Killer5]

I want the ones who actually are diagnosed with gender disphoria should be allowed to live their own lives. I don't care if someone says they are trans. But the fact of the matter is that this is impacting lives now and this forum is an example of that. Now I will be possibly banned because of my views being bigoted.

[Murdoch]

9 minutes ago, leodoom85 said:

It's sad at this point. The harmful won to some extent and the rest will have to be more cautious now, even if common sense is at mandatory here to keep some peace around here.

 

How do we have to be more cautious? Just don't harass people. It's pretty simple and if you are a halfway decent person it's something you are doing (or rather, not doing) anyway.

 

1 minute ago, Killer5 said:

But the fact of the matter is that this is impacting lives now and this forum is an example of that. Now I will be possibly banned because of my views being bigoted.

 

I quote @Major Arlene, a moderator, from like five minutes ago.

 

14 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

I'm just going to take a moment to reiterate that this is not a retroactive policy, and not for blanket statements or mild disagreements. this is for targeted, continued harassment against an individual user that resides on this forum, and has been reported by that targeted individual, as such.

 

I honestly do not know how to explain this to you any clearer. You can think whatever you like. Just don't bloody harass people.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Murdoch

[msx2plus]

3 minutes ago, Killer5 said:

this is impacting lives now and this forum is an example of that

i, once again, understand the roots of your fears, but i absolutely implore you to consider how the lives of trans people have been impacted up to this point - and including this point and onwards, despite progress.

 

the queer boogeymen aren't out to get you homie, trust. don't buy into that.

Edited August 23, 2021 by msx2plus

[LexiMax]

1 minute ago, Killer5 said:

Now I will be possibly banned because of my views being bigoted.

 

"When someone is convinced they're going to get banned tomorrow, they'll probably find a way to make it happen."

[Noiser]

Just respect other people. It's not that hard.
 

18 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

You are missing the point completely. What someone chooses to believe they are gender wise is not your problem. It affects your life in no way, shape or form. You may disagree with the concept, fine. Just don't be a harassing dickhead to people who do, offsite or on. It's really not difficult to comprehend. Exercise some understanding and respect to people with different views.

I am forever saying this. Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom from consequences.

+1

Edited August 23, 2021 by Noiser