monster tier list doom 2

[CBM]

how would you rank every monster in doom 2 from easiest to most difficult?

 

I have not been able to find anything substantial on the subject so I decided to ask the community...

 

from what I understand... zombiemen and shotgunners are at the lowest tier and are therefore considered the easiest, but what about everything else?

 

I ask because I want to use this info to better my enemy placement when mapping

Edited August 23, 2021 by CBM

[doomguykiller69]

I do not know the order of each monster by its level of life and strength, but you can get an idea of it by seeing the decorate or zs in GZdoom.pk3 there it says its life and its abilities!

[Mayomancer]

Decino did a tier list for monsters in the nightmare difficulty for the iwads (taking into consideration the encounters in the specific maps of the iwad). This would differ a bit from a UV tier list due to the differences in monster behaviour.

 

[CBM]

Just now, doomguykiller69 said:

I do not know the order of each monster by its level of life and strength, but you can get an idea of it by seeing the decorate or zs in GZdoom.pk3 there it says its life and its abilities!

yes but the synergy can be difficult to decipher from stats alone

 

I've learned this thus far:

up monsters - monsters in cages

down monsters - monsters on the ground

hitscanners, projectile throwers can be either up or down monsters while melee can only be down monsters - that makes 5 'types' in total

 

also large groups of zombiemen and shotgunners works well with archviles

and spider master mind works well with arachnotrons

 

 

[Jello]

Just off the top of my head, I would say Cyberdemon, arch vile, spider mastermind, mancubus, arachnatron,revenant, baron of hell, chaingunner, hell knight, cacodemon, pain elemental, shotgun guy, lost soul, zombieman, imp, demon/spectre.

 

It kind of depends on how they're used though, a horde of demons in the right spot can pin you down pretty quickly, whereas a Cyberdemon out in the open is pretty easy to take down.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Jello

[CBM]

Just now, Jello said:

Just off the top of my head, I would say Cyberdemon, arch vile, spider mastermind, mancubus, arachnatron,revenant, baron of hell, chaingunner, hell knight, cacodemon, shotgun guy, lost soul, zombieman, imp, demon/spectre.

 

ok, thanks! :-)

 

@Mayomancer

yes I've seen it, but as you said, its about nightmare difficulty and I'm thinking more about the lower difficulties... nightmare is a special case in my view

 

[JezChrist]

Arch-vile C tier.

I'm sorry but most of them are pushover these days.

Revenants A tier

Queen Spider Z tier

Chaingunner Z tier

[7Mahonin]

I’ll just throw some thoughts on the former humans for now. 
 

I think with the former humans it usually depends on how they’re organized. Some mappers seem to use them merely as zombies with guns they sprinkle here and there, others seem to take a more guard-like approach and use them in more militaristic formations and defensive positions. Shotgunners can be very deadly when used as ambush “guards”, and everyone seems to really dread it when chaingunners are used essentially like a sniper. So while I’d consider them all to be on the lower tier in difficulty, they can definitely be used in ways that make them challenging, especially when they have a vantage point over the player, surprise the player from behind, or when they’re in large numbers. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by TelicAx7

[Mayomancer]

18 minutes ago, CBM said:

from what I understand... zombiemen and shotgunners are at the lowest tier and are therefore considered the easiest, but what about everything else?

 

This is also not quite true because, while having low hp, hitscanners can be extremely dangerous, and bad rng can lead to even a single shotgunner dealing good damage on you if not dealt with fast enough.

 

I'd classify imps and demons as lower tier (in difficulty at least) because they don't have any particularly dangerous attacks and are there mostly to keep you moving instead of being immediate threats.

 

arch viles / cyberdemon -> hitscanners -> fatties (revenant, mancubi, arachnotron) -> fodder demons (cacos, demons, imps) is usually the priority list i go through in encounters, but positioning and infighting obviously can shift things around.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Mayomancer

[GarrettChan]

it's different for each situation, UV and NM are different, and if you're doing no damage runs, that's also different.

 

[sapphics]

I think the monster i've died to the most in my dooming career (or attack from a monster in this case), has been the max damage rev rocket.

 

so for me, it'd probably go cyber > rev > vile> manc > chaingunners > arach > hks/barons > shotgunners > pinkies > zombiemen

 

and idk how to rank SMM's. such a niche and hard monster to place.

Edited August 23, 2021 by sapphics

[CBM]

ok.. so to sum up so far...

 

Cyberdemon, arch vile, spider mastermind, mancubus, arachnatron,revenant, baron of hell, chaingunner, hell knight, cacodemon, shotgun guy, lost soul, zombieman, imp, demon/spectre

 

or

 

arch viles / cyberdemon -> hitscanners -> fatties (revenant, mancubi, arachnotron) -> fodder demons (cacos, demons, imps)

 

or

 

cyber > rev > vile> manc > chaingunners > arach > shotgunners > pinkies > zombiemen

 

?

 

___to put it in a table___

 

Im too young to die:

 

up...

hitscanners - none

projectile throwers - imps

melee - none

 

down...

hitscanners - zombiemen

projectile throwers - imps

melee - demon/spectre

 

boss - hell knight

flying - lost soul

 

Hey not too rough:

 

up...

hitscanners - zombiemen

projectile throwers - imps

melee - none

 

down...

hitscanners - shotgun guy

projectile throwers - imps

melee - demon/spectre

 

boss - baron of hell

flying - caco demon

 

Hurt me plenty:

up...

hitscanners - chaingunner

projectile throwers - hell knight

melee - none

 

down...

hitscanners - chaingunner

projectile throwers - baron of hell, arch vile

melee - pinkie

 

boss - cyberdemon

flying - caco demon, pain elemental

 

Ultra violence:

up...

hitscanners - chaingunner

projectile throwers - hell knight, arch vile

melee - none

 

down...

hitscanners - spider mastermind

projectile throwers - mancubus, revenant, arch vile

melee - baron of hell

 

boss - cyberdemon

flying - pain elemental

 

Nightmare:

 

????

 

@TelicAx7

 

I am actually trying to learn how to make the monsters walk around and act as guards :-)

 

just now learned how to do the classic build-up staircase

Edited August 23, 2021 by CBM

[D4NUK1]

In a tier list, for UV, or UV-Fast.

 

1. Cyberdemons: Great HP, and you are in danger if he shot the volley of three rockets and you don't know where he is.
2. Archivilles, Mancubus. Reverants: I got to place them in the same tier, because in the .wads here i figth with them, they made me play their game to minimize the damage to their attacks running around, or taking cover, and if placed bad, I can also take damage from lower ranks enemies.
3. Pain Elemental, Spider Master Mind: Pain in the ass if their placement, it's good.
4. Baron of Hell, Hell Knigths, Arachtrons, Caco-demons: Can deal good damage, but their attack patterns can be easily avoidables.
5. ChainGunner, Shotgunner: Hitscanners with a lot of health.
6. Imp, Lost Souls: Good positons, also Lost Souls are more like a shield of others enemies instead of a treat, unless in quantity.
7. Pinkies and their variations: Shield Meat only dangerous in strech places and without to run.
8. Former Human: Pwe pew.

 

 

[baja blast rd.]

So it seems like there are many things you can focus on when doing tier lists, but for this I'll stick to how much danger/lethality/trickiness/etc. I feel the species in general adds in a practical sense. This assumes decent use of the monster, but not overly optimized use. Because you can make 20 zombies an unconquerable death squad with the right resources and right setup.

 

Instead of 1:1, it's more like "this map has a reasonable number of masterminds" (probably very few unless you think very out-of-the-box) vs. the same with revenants (which would be a higher number than of masterminds). 

Also this is based on my personal comfort and familiarity with fighting all these monsters. Even based on the focus here, a lot of people would come up with different orderings. 

 

[1]

Cyberdemon [even if the cyb is very helpful to the player a lot, the rocket is just so much more lethal than anything else coming from a monster in Doom. in a lot of maps, once I hear that moo, I know that even if it's a supposedly easy map, I will have to be attentive] 

 

Archvile 

Pain Elemental

 

[2]

 

Mancubus 

Revenant 

 

Chaingunner

Sergeant [squishiness prevents these from being too high, but strong hitscanners are always something to reckon with. depending on your comfort fighting each, you can even easily swap this order, because the sustained but periodic DPS output of the chaingunner can be less dangerous than the more random burst damage of the shotgunners. with shotgunners, you can easily just walk into a room and get smacked for 60 damage or something in one second.]

 

[3]

(for all of the rest, the gaps feel pretty small to me, so even if they are a few spots away from one another, I might think of them as somewhat close)

 

Spectre [I sometimes play on settings where they can be tricky to spot, and they are sometimes roaming point-blank magnets for the rockets you fire. might seem surprising to see it this high, but it adds a more unique source of trickiness to a fight that doesn't overlap all the others -- whereas the monsters below on this list tend to be more diminishing returns on the more typical ways of being dangerous.] 

 

Arachnotron [would be in group 1 if tiers were according to cuteness. straight-line projectile and big hitbox means I can't place it too high in danger level.] 

 

Lost Soul [yeah these can be pesky. but just when they start to be quite dangerous, they end up revealing their liability -- they're like flying goats. a group will start headbutting each other instead of focusing on you. otherwise they might be higher.]

 

Baron of Hell [needs a huge "if used reasonably well" caveat. otherwise it would find itself on this list much closer to where "an exit door" would place. its HP can easily make it a formidable threat in close quarters.]

Hell Knight [despite the simple attack, they can pose a threat quite well, and both nobles' "instantly scratch when you're in melee range" mechanic ]

 

Cacodemon [the fact that it flies could easily make it a few spots higher, because that enables it to be dangerous in situations other monsters would be not, but its fireball is slow and doesn't do much damage]

 

[4]

 

Imp [can be quite tricky if used well at low range, in bigger packs, or with, say, ledge firing squads. not apparently strong but it can overwhelm you.] 

 

Spider Mastermind [really tricky to place. obviously 1 mastermind can easily be somewhat dangerous, way more dangerous than an imp, but I felt it was more useful to think about relative effectiveness based on the number of monsters you might typically use. and you can't really use many masterminds at once. something like 10-15 decently used chaingunners is usually going to be way more dangerous than a mastermind, unless you really hyper optimize the mastermind use. huge hitbox (one that imps and pinkies often get into easily and get it stuck), relatively unimposing attack if you have any cover]

 

Zombieman [one zombie can be more likely to damage you than one imp, but the upside of zombiemen starts to be limited by how they start mass fights among themselves once in numbers high enough to make them dangerous] 

Demon [quite ineffective one-on-one due to its high windup melee attack. can be effective in packs as complementary parts of a fight, but even with no attack at all, it would still add value as a meatshield for, say, an archvile, so I question how much value to give it just because of that.]

 

Large Brown Tree [so that the pinky isn't last on the list. I find these have some danger to them, especially when you're switching between a classic port and GZDoom and forget you have these as blocking projectiles in GZ and blow yourself up with a rocket.]

[CBM]

@rd.

 

I love that you included the large brown tree LOL

but very helpfull, thanks

[Noiser]

• S Tier:
  Cyberdemon, Archvile
• A Tier:
  Chaingunner
• B Tier:
  Mancubus, Arachnotron, Revenant 
• C Tier:
  Shotgunner, Spider Mastermind, Pain Elemental, Baron of Hell 
• D Tier: 
  Lost Soul, Hell Knight
• E Tier: 
  Imp, Cacodemon, Spectre
• F Tier: 
  Pinky 
• F minus:
  Zombieman

[Jacek Bourne]

Honestly there is no definitive list on difficulty for doom enemies. Depending on the situation presented, any one of them can be the most deadly.

[Grain of Salt]

Ranked by "scare factor if ONE of them suddenly appeared in the same medium-sized room (with small pillars for cover) as you, when you do not have bfg", which favors some monsters over others but it was necessary to implement some kind of consistency in setting because some mons (cyb, viles) vary far too much in danger based on how large the playable space is. No tiers, just an ordered list.

 

• Cyberdemon
• Spider mastermind (spider attack windup is pretty fast imo, and it only needs to hit you once or twice to make you seriously regret it)
• Vile
• Pain elemental
• Chaingunner (would be higher than PE if its health wasn't so low)
• Manc
• Revenant
• Arach
• Hell knight or baron
• Shotgunner (again, would be higher if it wasn't so quick to kill)
• Lost soul (I think the threat of a lost soul is often underestimated)
• Caco
• Former human (yes, a FH is more dangerous than an imp)
• Imp
• Demon

 

Really I should make an ordered list like this for every type of area you could be in (esp open areas, long corridors and very small rooms), but I can't be bothered.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Grain of Salt

[Murdoch]

With the exception of the obviously weak monsters with low damage, the difficulty can vary depending on placement. An Archville in an area with a lot of cover is a pushover, but a deadly threat if out in the open or obstructed from getting to cover by obstacles or other monsters. A Mancubus out in the open is not much of a threat, but get up close to one due to devious placement by the map author and it's another story. And so on.

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Since we're ordering the DooM/DooM II enemies by difficulty, here's my list:

 

• Cyberdemon [makes sense. 4000hp, rockets, scary AF]
• Archvile [stupidly fast, very high damage and gives me PTSD]
• Chaingunner [small, easy spammable and really loves to hit and/or kill me from the most BS of angles]
• Revenant [Hippity hoppity I made all of my rockets home into your property. uwu]
• Spider Mastermind [3000hp, massive hitbox and a hitscan. Despite that though, not too hard to kill]
• Arachnotron [Cute AF but also deadly AF. Why must you be so hard to deal with. QnQ]
• Baron of Hell [1000hp of pure F A B U L O U S N E S S ! And also it keeps trying to smack me. :( ]
• Hell Knight [500hp sure but since everyone wants to flood this ****er with the regular shotgun, it goes up to here]
• Former Sergeant [Despite how easy it is to wipe the floor with this guy, I've been caught out SO many times from just how much damage this guy's gun can deal to my HP. I've had a good chunk of deaths to them]
• Mancubus [Predictable attack when doing solo but can flood a room rapidly if multiple are used together. Not too hard to kill though]
• Cacodemon [can fly, fairly tanky and does a decent amount of damage. Not too hard to take down with super shotty or rockets]
• Imp [Brown and spikey and is very common. I've died to a few imps over the years but they're still fairly easy to deal with]
• Pain Elemental [Spams lost souls but otherwise is very easy to control]
• Lost Soul [Honestly, they're more annoying then difficult and since you've got the super shotty for DooM II, they go down pretty fast]
• Pinky Demon/Spectre [The literal only challenge to this guy is if they corner you, otherwise pinkies pose little threat on their own]
• Former Human [Slow, bad accuracy on NM and dies to pretty much everything super easily, this guy is literally just a free ammo pack but requires a small trade first]

[Fiendish]

To echo what others have said, it really depends on the situation, which includes factors like how much health, cover, and moving space is available, the number of enemies in question, and which weapons the player has at his or her disposal. If the player has nothing but a pistol and rocket launcher, a tight room with pinkies or lost souls can be deadly, for example. Or think about E4M1 -- shotgunners or even zombiemen can become really scary if there is very little health available. The Factory from Doom II has a death trap consisting of a few imps (the one where you teleport into a group of them that instantly scratch you). On the other end, a lone archvile with ample cover and no monster corpses around is very easily dealt with.

 

That said, I'd very roughly rank them like this, based on the kinds of setups that I most often see in maps: Cyberdemon > Arch-Viles > Revenants = Chaingunners = Mancubi > Pain Elementals > Barons > Hell Knights > Arachnotrons  > Shotgunners > Spider Mastermind > Cacodemons > Lost Souls > Imps > Spectres > Pinkies > Zombiemen  

 

3 hours ago, CBM said:

I've learned this thus far:

up monsters - monsters in cages

down monsters - monsters on the ground

hitscanners, projectile throwers can be either up or down monsters while melee can only be down monsters - that makes 5 'types' in total

 

also large groups of zombiemen and shotgunners works well with archviles

and spider master mind works well with arachnotrons

 

Regarding enemies in up/down positions (turrets or free-roaming), most enemies can be used effectively as either in the right setup. For example, although a cage full of pinkies is a non-threat in most circumstances, it could be used to some effect if there is pressure that makes the player want to press up against the cage (say, to take cover from an arch-vile), since the caged pinkies can bite through the bars. Of course, a cage of hell knights/barons would perform that role more effectively in that kind of setup. 

 

I'd also say that arch-viles can synergize even better with other types of enemies. A tried-and-true combo is a group of revenants with an arch-vile in back. Pinkies/spectres and arch-viles can also be a strong pairing, for example. Arch-viles in general can greatly amplify the threat of other monsters, given the right placement, of course.

[RevenantFTS97]

9 hours ago, CBM said:

how would you rank every monster in doom 2 from easiest to most difficult?

If you want a SHORT ANSWER: then the easiest is the Zombieman with 20HP and the hardest is the Cyberdemon with 4000HP. That is, of course if were are considering ONLY the monster's health factor

 

Now the LONG ANSWER: There are other factors that you should take into account: for instance, monsters with HITSCAN ATTACKS vs monsters with PROJECTILE ATTACKS

 

Imagine you are (playing) in a giant rectangle-shaped open area. There are no walls or anything to take cover. In front of you, there is any monsters in a 64-units tall platform attacking you.

 *If the enemy is a hitscanner there is NO WAY to dodge its attack (remember there is nowhere to take cover). You have to pray for the RNG to be on your side, so that  the Hitscanners misses you (specially if it is a Chaingunner)

 *If the enemy attacks throwing projectiles, the story is different. Now you don't depend on the RNG, YOU DEPEND ON YOUR SKILLS AND REFLEXES. Whenever you see a projectile coming towards your face, you dodge it, and you're perfectly fine. Of course, if the monster is a Cyberdemon, YOU HAVE TO BE MORE CAREFUL, because now not only you have to dodge the projectile coming towards your face, but you also must stay away from the blast radius that causes the rocket's explosion, otherwise you'll lose precious health

 

Now the SHORT CONCLUSIVE ANSWER: it is all relative, because it depends on the CONTEXT, therefore, there are many factors involved (enemy placement, weapons available for the player, player's remaining health, if there is place to take cover or not, etc)

 

Anyway, I hope you find this useful

 

 

[baja blast rd.]

Quote

 

up monsters

down monsters

 

 

about turrets, walking through different concepts...

 

One thing with projectile monsters is that firing on a downward trajectory makes the projectile itself less dangerous. Now, along with moving to either side to dodge, you can move forward or back. A projectile monster on the ground targets a line, a higher turret targets a single spot. If you imagine a really high imp turret, it is only going to hit you if you run back into the fireball's path or stay still (and, well, this is different, but still probably interesting).

So that has certain implications: certain types of monsters retain all their power as turrets more than others. Hitscanners fit that, because you can't dodge a hitscan trace. Revenants' homing missiles track you better. Cyberdemons have splash damage, giving the weird property of being better either perched low or perched high, and less so in between. Archviles are again sort-of-hitscanners. Arachnotrons, despite having simple projectiles that all are individually less dangerous now, can still be included here too due to their continuous fire; you dodge one bolt easily, but there's another one on the way for you. Pinkies... it's technically true that their attack doesn't become that much weaker.

 

But there's still way more to it than that. 

 

Even though the rest of the projectile monsters, like imps and arachnotrons and mancubi, have their individual projectile danger lowered somewhat, turret monsters crucially can have positional advantages -- sticking to one spot instead of getting bunched into a blend of roaming monsters that all infight. That is the main property of a turret, really. It makes them very effective for complementing other groups of monsters, and the stable position also keeps that consistent. Mancubi and especially arachnotrons are some of the best turret monsters in relative terms, because being perched can keep their giant asses out of the way of other action.

 

Additionally, the higher incidence angle can give the turret vantage points they normally wouldn't have. Even if a lower angle is in itself more dangerous, it doesn't actually help if that angle is blocked by a ledge. 

 

Here especially, it's also important to not always fall into the trap of trying to use monsters only for danger. Overuse super-effective revenant or archvile snipers in a map, especially without restricting their movement, and cleaning them up can be awkward since they are fast and skinny. Hitscan turrets can create a good source of danger, but too many can be irritating. ("Overuse" and "too many" is subjective of course.) In the reverse, something can be ineffective but quite fun. Sometimes you want weaker, squishier turrets as a less important threat to give an encounter layers. Some perched imps might not do much to kill the player, but they might add fun visually imposing "bullet hell" and keep the situation feeling urgent. 

 

Could reasonably drop another "but wait there's more" here. But yeah part of the fun of monster use is there are so many variables and nothing is a hard science and you can come up with creative things that go against the book, and there are a bunch of different "books." So it also helps to take insights from existing fights and fool around in the editor without a rigid scheme. 

[Sergeant G]

Rather than a 1 to 10 type of list, my personal, irrational scheme involves dividing the demons into several classes:

Class Zero:

Commander Keen

Class 1: The Undead

Zombieman, Shotgun Guy, Heavy Weapon Dude, Wolfenstein SS

Class 2: Carnivore Demons

Imps, Demons, Spectres, Hell Knights, Barons of Hell

Class 3: Flyers

Lost Souls, Cacodemons, Pain Elementals

Class 4: Cybernetic Demons

Revenants, Arachnotrons, Mancubus

Class 5: Pseudo Boss

Archvile

Class 6: Bosses

Spider Mastermind, Cyberdemon, Icon of Sin

 

Class Zero is pretty self explanatory. Class 1 are hit scanners with no melee ability, so even though their capabilities vary considerably, they all require a similar tactical approach. Class 2 emphasizes melee attacks and imao are most dangerous in close quarters, however, don't discount their ranged attacks. Their deadliness and endurance also vary greatly, but again, strategically they are of a kind, imao. I can say that Class 3 is sorta evenly split between ranged and melee attacks, though that's kind of a can of worms. Suffice it to say that flight is their defining characteristic. The Cybernetic Demons of Class 4 strongly emphasize ranged attack, the exception being the Revenants' legendary popeye arms. Still, their relatively larger sizes can cram you in during close encounters, so while they are more ranged than melee oriented, they present newer challenges and considerations in close quarters than a comparable number of Class 2 demons might. I place the Archvile in Class 5 by itself. It does not have the health of a boss, although like the Baron of Hell, it's close. No other demon can bring other demons back from the dead. It also has amazing speed and agility compared to other demons. It is not cybernetic but it also doesn't use melee attacks. It doesn't fire rockets or plasma or volcanic snot, its attack seems to be magical in nature. Class Six are bosses, interestingly, they only use ranged attacks.    

Edited August 24, 2021 by Sergeant G

[CBM]

a lot of very interesting information. I am very glad for all the input.

 

hopefully this thread will also be able to help others who struggle with monster placement as I do.

 

I do have been told that on some maps I have apparently used monsters effectively but I suspect that has been more a coincidence LOL

 

54 minutes ago, Sergeant G said:

Rather than a 1 to 10 type of list, my personal, irrational scheme involves dividing the demons into several classes:

Class Zero:

Commander Keen

Class 1: The Undead

Zombieman, Shotgun Guy, Heavy Weapon Dude, Wolfenstein SS

Class 2: Carnivore Demons

Imps, Demons, Spectres, Hell Knights, Barons of Hell

Class 3: Flyers

Lost Souls, Cacodemons, Pain Elementals

Class 4: Cybernetic Demons

Revenants, Arachnotrons, Mancubus

Class 5: Pseudo Boss

Archvile

Class 6: Bosses

Spider Mastermind, Cyberdemon, Icon of Sin

 

Class Zero is pretty self explanatory. Class 1 are hit scanners with no melee ability, so even though their capabilities vary considerably, they all require a similar tactical approach. Class 2 emphasizes melee attacks and imao are most dangerous in close quarters, however, don't discount their ranged attacks. Their deadliness and endurance also vary greatly, but again, strategically they are of a kind, imao. I can say that Class 3 is sorta evenly split between ranged and melee attacks, though that's kind of a can of worms. Suffice it to say that flight is their defining characteristic. The Cybernetic Demons of Class 4 strongly emphasize ranged attack, the exception being the Revenants' legendary popeye arms. Still, their relatively larger sizes can cram you in during close encounters, so while they are more ranged than melee oriented, they present newer challenges and considerations in close quarters than a comparable number of Class 2 demons might. I place the Archvile in Class 5 by itself. It does not have the health of a boss, although like the Baron of Hell, it's close. No other demon can bring other demons back from the dead. It also has amazing speed and agility compared to other demons. It is not cybernetic but it also doesn't use melee attacks. It doesn't fire rockets or plasma or volcanic snot, its attack seems to be magical in nature. Class Six are bosses, interestingly, they only use ranged attacks.    

what about pinkies in cages either on the ground or in the air, would that be class zero aka target pratice?

 

and is that an acceptable thing to do?

in e1m1 of gzfreepunk, I have two pinkies in cages that cant hurt the player unless the player stands right up against the bars... I did it to introduce the player to some easy kills right off the bat

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by CBM

[Sergeant G]

14 minutes ago, CBM said:

a lot of very interesting information. I am very glad for all the input.

 

hopefully this thread will also be able to help others who struggle with monster placement as I do.

 

I do have been told that on some maps I have apparently used monsters effectively but I suspect that has been more a coincidence LOL

 

what about pinkies in cages either on the ground or in the air, would that be class zero aka target pratice?

 

and is that an acceptable thing to do?

in e1m1 of gzfreepunk, I have two pinkies in cages that cant hurt the player unless the player stands right up against the bars... I did it to introduce the player to some easy kills right off the bat

 

 

I personally would say that since it's the cages themselves and or their placement which renders them unable to harm the player, not some modification that you've made to the pinkies themselves, then no, they are still Class 2 carnivores, it is merely the circumstances of their placement that is changing their capabilities. Another judge might rule another way. 

As to whether or not it is acceptable, sure. For instance, due to the story you might be trying to tell with the level, it might be necessary to shoot, chainsaw, crush, telefrag or otherwise kill the pinkies to initiate some scripted event which allows the level to progress and/or gives it character. A blood sacrifice. That's one instance right there, perhaps there are others.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Sergeant G

[CBM]

1 hour ago, Sergeant G said:

I personally would say that since it's the cages themselves and or their placement which renders them unable to harm the player, not some modification that you've made to the pinkies themselves, then no, they are still Class 2 carnivores, it is merely the circumstances of their placement that is changing their capabilities. Another judge might rule another way. 

As to whether or not it is acceptable, sure. For instance, due to the story you might be trying to tell with the level, it might be necessary to shoot, chainsaw, crush, telefrag or otherwise kill the pinkies to initiate some scripted event which allows the level to progress and/or gives it character. A blood sacrifice. That's one instance right there, perhaps there are others.

interesting

 

but there is no scripted event or anything tied to them atm, no story, no nothing

 

just the fact they are easy kills with the starting pistol

 

sidenote:

definetly going to implement patrol routes in gzfreepunk when I learn how

 

edit... implemented it successfully in my robothell map just now

Edited August 24, 2021 by CBM