share your thoughts on types of size-limitation maps

[baja blast rd.]

256x256: can be surprisingly 'complete' experiences. for looks, often relies on extensive decoration of the unreachable parts of the map, which can also be occupied by monsters. using scripting or basic triggers to transform the environment is a powerful device. see Xyzzy's mapset.

 

512x512: because of wads like Bijou Doom, I think of this or a bit smaller as a great size for "referential confinement mapping," where instead of mapping in a broad theme or style, you're more lifting a single easily recognizable area or motif and rendering it in "cute" form.

 

 

1024x1024: at some point before this, you gain access to "full" and possibly nuanced spatial progression -- multiple rooms without total crampedness. it seems important to avoid trying to draw a bounding box and simply stuff it with as many tiny rooms as possible. less is more, even here. 

 

2048x2048: as a player, it is possible that if you didn't read the description (or ... wad name) you might not realize a space restriction is at work. this is more a soft restriction that defines broad scope rather than pushing towards specific techniques.

 

between each tier, area differences are substantial, due to math. 1024x1024 has 4x the area of 512x512, which has 2.25x that of 384x384, which still has 1.5x that of 320x320. so intermediary ranges, like 1500x1500, can be meaningfully different than their neighbors.

 

some more, for completionism:

 

64x64: lol (<- that is not just laughter)

4096x4096: community project doesn't want magnum opuses 

8192x8192: Okuplok sweats profusely

 

[this post has exactly 256 words after this unsubtlepadding.]

[antares031]

We better need a concept of "The Evolution of Display Resolution" project. With a total six episodes, each episode features the most popular resolution of the era, starting with CGA 320x200 (Classic Doom was designed for this resolution, iirc). Then it goes up to VGA 640x480, XGA 1024x768, HD 1280x720, FHD 1920x1080, and QHD 2560x1440. Two secret levels feature UHD 3840x2160, because why not?

[Xyzzу]

I guess it's no surprise to say I adore these kinds of maps, though I'll admit as soon as maps get bigger than 1024² the distinct feeling of confinement (or congestion) is lost on me.

Spoiler

[shamelessly shills his -complevel 11 sequel to the above linked mapset because he feels it's better and deserves more love... and also to reach an arbitrary 64 word limit]

 

[Obsidian]

A part of me wonders if 1024 community projects could make a comeback at some point in the near future: I remember everyone being pretty tired of the concept years back, but these days I hardly see them mentioned in conversation at all. Maybe the time is ripe for, I dunno, Crampedness 1024.

 

And no, I'm not volunteering to run it. :P

[Michael Jensen]

20 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

A part of me wonders if 1024 community projects could make a comeback at some point in the near future: I remember everyone being pretty tired of the concept years back, but these days I hardly see them mentioned in conversation at all. Maybe the time is ripe for, I dunno, Crampedness 1024.

 

And no, I'm not volunteering to run it. :P

How about Eternal Doom 1024, just to spice things up?

[Obsidian]

23 minutes ago, A.H. Sankhatayan said:

How about Eternal Doom 1024, just to spice things up?

 

Welllll, there was kind of MAYhem 2048... :P

[Wavy]

1x1 CP when

 

Anyhoo, I'd like to see a CP involving a height limitation, like having the max ceiling/floor height limited 128 to -128 units (unless that was done before?).

[Lorenz0]

I recently started considering making a 1024x1024 map (or a few) in order to polish my hyperdetailing skills in tight spaces.

 

I think that if you go for any smaller maps than that, there's not much potential for quality gameplay. I played it a while ago, but I think that way because Xyzzy's 256 mapset posted above didn't impress me that much. 256x256 is REALLY not much space to do anything at all, with very few exceptions.

 

To me 1024x1024 seems like the perfect middle ground between constricting rules and regular mapping. 2048x2048 looks pretty fun too.

[Helm]

5 hours ago, antares031 said:

CGA 320x200 (Classic Doom was designed for this resolution, iirc). 

320×200 in 256 colors (Mode 13h) standard VGA. 

CGA is 4 colours out of the predefined 16 color gamut. That 16 color gamut all at once is what EGA was capable of. Both Wolfenstein and Doom were VGA games.

[Jayextee]

Oooh, I'll bite in an area in which I have a little experience!

100 Lines
Incredibly limiting but enough to get a reasonable size of map out of with some clever linedef economy. Detail? Nah, mate. It's a mug's game.

300 Lines
Probably not so limiting, but still a great way to keep maps to coffee-break size without too much visual 'clutter'.
400 Lines
Honestly, I think this is the perfect linedef limit if you want to enforce a pre-sourceport 'feel' to your maps. Enough there to make a nicely-sized map but spend a few linedefs here and there on some details for flavour.
404 Lines
Error: Opinion Not Found!
486 Lines
E1M1 innit.
666 Lines
Community project when?

As a bonus;

50 Lines
Sounds like utter sadism. You want superfuckingturbo microslaughter? Yo.
69 Lines
Nice.

[slugger]

420-line max, 420x420x420 maps with lots of green textures

[slugger]

I don't know what you'd call this, vertex density restriction? I haven't played the level.

 

I think it would also be cool for one person to do external detailing around a small space, then everybody gives their own interpretation of the playable interior section.

Edited August 27, 2021 by slugger

[DSC]

I'll be honest, I'm the kind of guy who much prefers magnum opuses over small maps.

[ax34]

I propose GZ1024 - it's like 1024x1024 but with GZDoom features 3D floors, dynamic lights, ZScript... The more 3D floors the better, the higher the better.

Edited August 27, 2021 by ax34

[Phobus]

Sticking to what rd listed in the main part of the post:

 

256² - I've not tried this one, but it's a very tight limit and wouldn't be an obvious choice to try more than once or twice.

 

512² - I've had a couple of goes at this one, the latter more successful than the former. The better one worked mostly on the principle that most of the interesting stuff is happening outside of the playable area, and re-themed nicely for DBP19. The temptation to make a very compact layout of corridors and steep stairs or cramped lifts to stretch the run time out to a couple of minutes here suggests to me that the limit is a bit too limiting.

 

1024² - Obviously a very successful one that's turned up in multiple community projects and solo releases. I've had a few goes at it and I think the best ones I've made and played avoid cramping the playable space and have at least some of the key encounters or elements of the map be outside of the playable space. You'll never not know you're in a confined space playing one of these, but it's not too difficult to make a decent level anyway.

 

2048² - This, for me, is the sweet spot. MAYhem 2048 is a really good community project precisely because the limit stopped most people going over the top (although some people tried anyway), but gave plenty enough space to work with. Plenty of experienced mappers made these maps feel almost effortless, with the limitations something you'd only be dimly aware of a lot of the time. Other projects have used this limitation too, to various success.

 

In my book, these playable space limits are a good way to get things done quickly, with room for experimentation. They work well for various formats, too, unlike some other challenges that can be blown wide open by ZDoom or whatever. My preference is 2048, as should be clear from what I said above. I am interested in trying some variations on these themes, like doing a 2048-square unit playable area, but it's in a map that measures 1024x4096, for example.

[stewboy]

5 hours ago, Obsidian said:

A part of me wonders if 1024 community projects could make a comeback at some point in the near future: I remember everyone being pretty tired of the concept years back, but these days I hardly see them mentioned in conversation at all. Maybe the time is ripe for, I dunno, Crampedness 1024.

 

And no, I'm not volunteering to run it. :P

 

I'm still very keen on the idea of a 1024³ project for Eternity (1024x1024x1024), maybe 'Cubic 1024' or something like that. It'll encourage people to think about verticality in a way that a lot of people won't be used to in the Doom mapping community.

[Deadwing]

2048 is the ideal for me, but you can make it work with 1024. Now less than that is a bit too much for me lol

 

As for magnum opus, I can handle 3 or 4 of them in a 32 map megawad, more than that might make things drag too much. I usually prefer shorter maps

[P41R47]

3 hours ago, Jayextee said:

69 Lines
Nice.

Reserved for a Kama Sutra Tribute Project
:D

Edited August 27, 2021 by P41R47

[Bauul]

7 hours ago, Lorenz0 said:

I think that if you go for any smaller maps than that, there's not much potential for quality gameplay. I played it a while ago, but I think that way because Xyzzy's 256 mapset posted above didn't impress me that much. 256x256 is REALLY not much space to do anything at all, with very few exceptions.

 

I'm biased because I help compile the community portion of it, but I was really impressed by the sheer ingenuity on display in Confinement 256.  You'd think you could basically do nothing in a 256x256 map, but the final mapset has over 50 unique and different encounters.  It helps the maps tend to be so short they almost feel like 50 rooms in one giant map, rather than 50 maps.  It's not a classic Doom experience by any stretch, but I still maintain it's a pretty fascinating experiment.

 

13 hours ago, rd. said:

using scripting or basic triggers to transform the environment is a powerful device

 

My Confinement 256 map (map 57, the last map in the set) uses this approach heavily, and I'm still extremely proud of getting it working.  I developed a system of dynamic portals and moving floors laid out on a grid system so I could adjust the shape of the map on the fly as the player progresses.  So despite all taking place in a single 256x256 room, the player experiences things like 1024 unit wide rooms, giant mazes and endless spiral staircases.  It was fun to conceive, even if it was a nightmare to program. 

[Bridgeburner56]

I've done a 1024 x 1024 speed map which was fun (2 hour build). You can extract a good amount out of that space with a little bit of planning. Even more so without a time limit. Speaking of, I have made a good amount of speed maps now. I do like the panicked frenzy that 2 hour speed map brings. Even more so in a VC with everyone else screaming too.

Dying Camel's Demons 3 had a 5120 x 5120 size limit and a 500 monster limit and it's still the fastest "proper" map I've made. I did a fully planned layout, blocked it out and then detailed/populated each area. It had a split 3 key path leading to a final arena so it could easily be split up into sections to focus on. I imagine this wouldn't really be seen as a strict 'limit' for most mappers but it was for me :D

And then the 1k lines projects (1000 line limit). Nice bite sized maps to make that I don't stress too much over. Being vanilla as well is essentially another limitation for me and I like doing them to take a break from the madness that I usually do. I've recently finished my map for 1k3 and I focused on using the limited lines for gameplay as much as possible. The visplanes barely go over 50.

While I generally like to work 'unfettered', I find making the odd map with limitations fun and refreshing. It can also help you think in different ways, teach you new tricks and generally make you a better mapper.

[Lorenz0]

@Bauul

Maybe I worded my message wrong. A lot of the maps were technically impressive indeed, but I just didn't find them that fun to play, which is the most important thing for the player. There were definitely some exceptions though.

 

[Nikku4211]

In no particular order:

1x1: You're some kid on the internet who thinks he's funny so you make a WAD with only a 1x1 box. This is probably the smallest map possible that actually has a sector and linedefs. It's also literally unplayable and you can't see anything.

 

64x64: You make an entire megaWAD of 64x64 levels, where you can barely move at all. Despite the limited movement options, there's still enough of a possibility for what you can do here. Plus, at least you won't just see a HOM.

 

1024x1024: Standard claustro map. Whether it feels claustrophobic or not really depends on how the map was made. If you don't rely on long, fights with big enemies, 1024x1024 can seem workable. If you put a bunch of revenants and arachnotrons and knights and barons and maybe perhaps a mastermind or cyber in there, then yeah, that's definitely cramped. Also the place for you to put nice fake transparent floor effects using line special 260 and show the pros of the software renderer.

 

512x512: Always feels cramped, but really annoying when there's so many enemies in there just to maximise how much time you spend in the map.

 

32x32: Bruh. Just like 1x1, except I never saw a level with this size limit, actually. Keep it up!

 

320x200: Fine as long as you use 5:6 pixels and not square pixels. Unless you want to allude to the PAL Amiga, I guess.

 

640x480: If you like early Windows that much, I guess go ahead.

 

400 lines: Surprisingly cool, although lacking in secrets.

 

10 sectors: Interesting idea. Haven't played a lot of it, but what I've seen seems so promising.

 

2 sectors: ^what You'd have to mess with joining sectors, plenty of midtextures, sprite decorations, and split linedefs if you don't want your level to be bland.

 

1 sector: Bruh. Never saw this one either, and I'm glad I didn't.

 

8192x8192: Don't anger the Great God Imp. If you actually only stay within the 8192x8192 limit, that'd be pog. It's probably big enough that so many Doom levels are already made within this area without the author even realising it.

[galileo31dos01]

From mapping experience, the smaller the size limitation, the less frustration with overthinking of ideas. An example, when I signed up for Hellevator, I had a sketch and a general plan for something twisted and messy thematically, and having only 3 days + extra time for touch ups proved to be daunting in the end but no less exhilarating in the process, because not only did I misjudge the area limitations at first, there simply was no time or much space to go wild and loose yourself in worthless excuses, so it had to be what it had to be. It's different than mapping while being your own boss, if you're not quite confident in your goals or you don't put some fun restrictions that could be helpful if necessary, you might not get anywhere...

 

As a player, you usually go with the knowledge - or just the expectation - that the maps aren't going to take a while to get through, putting difficulties aside, so it can be easier to plan out your dooming in your spare time, if of course we're speaking of clear and consistent size restrictions throughout a map(set), like the congestion and claustrophobia series. I think of the kind of gameplay that's likely to be in store - (very) close quarters combat in short periods of time with typically low but significant monster count/use - and I know they'll contain something up my alley for when the right mood.

 

In short words, they're usually easier to sell for me, so I'm all in for such limitations, also because doom is an ocean of possibilities so that having something dedicated to one of all of them automatically means you have something different to try out.

[PeterMoro]

I tried to make a 1024 x 1024 but failed. It ended up being a bit bigger. LOL. Oh well, at least some people liked playing it. 

 

I think it's fun to try making a map with limited space. Some of them can turn out pretty good. Depends on how you re-use the space ;)

[Doomkid]

I was going to complain about 32x32 being grossly underrepresented in the community, but Nikku actually did mention it first. I’m impressed!

 

In all seriousness, “vanilla maps that actually run in vanilla” is a strict enough limitation for me. Even better if they follow all vanilla limitations strictly, to the point where it not only doesn’t crash, but very rarely passes other (crazy-low) limits like the drawseg limit and thing limit.

 

Combine “true vanilla” with a 2048x2048 playable grid limit and you’ve got me drooling over the prospect!

[Nikku4211]

17 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I was going to complain about 32x32 being grossly underrepresented in the community, but Nikku actually did mention it first. I’m impressed!

^w^

17 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

In all seriousness, “vanilla maps that actually run in vanilla” is a strict enough limitation for me. Even better if they follow all vanilla limitations strictly, to the point where it not only doesn’t crash, but very rarely passes other (crazy-low) limits like the drawseg limit and thing limit.

 

Combine “true vanilla” with a 2048x2048 playable grid limit and you’ve got me drooling over the prospect!

 

To be honest, vanilla becomes less of a size limitation when you're using a really optimised nodebuilder like ZokumBSP(which sadly hasn't been updated in a long time, anyone want to make a fork of it?). You can even have lines with a certain line special (exclusive to ZokumBSP) removed from the blockmap entirely, useful for decorations and perhaps fake 3d bridges.

[Capellan]

6 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

400 lines: Surprisingly cool, although lacking in secrets.

 

You can handily get 3 secrets into a 400 line map, which seems like more than enough for the size.

 

[Capellan]

15 hours ago, Jayextee said:

400 Lines
Honestly, I think this is the perfect linedef limit if you want to enforce a pre-sourceport 'feel' to your maps. Enough there to make a nicely-sized map but spend a few linedefs here and there on some details for flavour.

 

You're probably right, even though almost every IWAD map is actually well over this amount.  Even E1M1 has nearly 500 lines.

 

I think this is about the way we tend to map these days - a modern map maker given 1000 lines (which is actually not that far short of what MAP29 has) will probably use 40-50% of those lines for detail.  When limited to 400 lines, they'll probably be more in the 10-20% range.

 

[Nikku4211]

33 minutes ago, Capellan said:

You can handily get 3 secrets into a 400 line map, which seems like more than enough for the size.

Theoretically, because it all depends on how complex the regular map's lines are.

 

However, in practise... I haven't seen 3 secrets in a 400 line map, or at least ones that aren't tiny.

[Capellan]

21 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

However, in practise... I haven't seen 3 secrets in a 400 line map, or at least ones that aren't tiny.

 

29/32 maps in Doom 404 have 3 secrets.