Mountain base (Supposedly fun thing I just might do again)

[RHhe82]

Hi,

 

I don't know if it is customary to show off My First Wads¹ here, but for the sake of feedback I thought it'd be nice to share what I did.

 

The map format is UDMF (GZDoom/Doom2), and it runs with GZDoom. I used version 4.6.1 for testing. I don't think the level will run in any other port -- older versions might do it, since I don't use the more advanced features of GZDoom, mostly for the ease of texture alignment. There's a sloped surface in the level, and if I further refine the level, there's a couple of places where scripts would serve better than voodoo doll magic.

 

Map uses some custom textures snatched from OTEX1.1 by Ukiro. The textures I used are included in PWAD, so no need to have a copy of Otex yourself -- that said, hopefully there aren't any missing textures when I removed the unused ones with Slade). 

 

The map also uses an excellent midi track by Stewboy I extracted from Sunlust. I understood he is fine with people using his music as long as credit is given. I sincerely believe it elevates the level above its level :-D

 

I implemented the basic DooM difficulties and playtested the level with all of them. Ultraviolence is the intended experience. I'm not a DooM god, so if you can handle TFC and Plutonia on UV, you should be fine. Then again, I know my level, so I might underestimate the difficulty. During playtesting I managed to complete the level on UV without any secrets, but it was a tad difficult. Secrets on the other hand might make it a bit easy.

 

There should be no inescapable pits (aside from those player cannot access), secrets aren't mandatory (I like to have them).

 

Mountain Base (updated 28.8.2021)

 

Screenshot 1

 

Screenshot 2

 

Screenshot 3

 

So, what do you think? What should I do to improve it or to make a possible next level better? The process itself felt a bit slow, as I tend to tangle myself with details (without actually doing a hyper-detailed, modern pwad...). My creative process seems to be such that I need to cling to some sort of realism, which is why at the start it looks like you are entering some sort of building on a mountaintop and sort of "lull the player into the map", even though I personally like my maps a tad more abstract and straighter-to-the-point. I think this is also why I feel the start of the level is boring, although I do like maps to have an ascending difficulty curve. I also think the by-product of this is the area behind the red key switch, which originally was supposed to be a quick exit route in case the player fell into the lava lake in the beginning, but it grew so much that I wanted the player to go there anyway :)

 

Also interesting to note, at least to myself, as it may also be a side effect of my way of novice mapping, I was really worried the level would be too short. It still feels short, but if I go for the 100% kills and secrets, it takes me over 13 minutes to complete.

 

¹ I used to do DooM Map editing back in the 90s, and I vaguely remember trying Zdoom's features cirka 2005, but I never completed anything, and it's been a very long time, so for all intents and purposes I started mapping last week with a couple of scrapped starting areas and now this, which I think I started a week ago.

 

² Haven't played Sunlust myself, but watched Decino do so. Awesome stuff, I should play it. On HMP as much as it hurts.

Edited August 28, 2021 by RHhe82
28.8.21: New version of the map

[Silhouette 03]

 I had a look at your map and you really seem to be underestimating your mapping ability. Played on UV and tested with GZDoom 4.6.1

 

Gameplay

The first thing I'd like to talk about is how well you structure your encounters, and how you use the environment (namely the lava pits and the narrow caves) against the player, though these encounters don't feel cheap, since you sufficiently equip the player with right weapon for the job. The encounters themselves are a lot of fun, and I do enjoy your very plutonia-like usage of hitscanners in some of the traps.

 

Layout

I really like how the layout loops around itself, and you often backtrack to previously locked areas. I'm really fond of that type of level design in general. Pathfinding is also decent, and besides one time, I never really found myself getting lost

 

Texturing and detailing

Your texturing is very much competent, and I really like the mix of vanilla and OTEX textures( I saw you already gave credit for the use of the texture set, but you can also credit ukiro for the textures in the OP, if you feel so inclined). I also love the lifts that you made. Really cool addition

 

Bugs

There are no major game breaking games to speak of, but I did notice a few things:

This lava pit is non-damaging. Was that intentional?:https://imgur.com/a/TSBWWym

This stimpack appears to be levitating. I have no idea why:https://imgur.com/a/PuWXXnC

 

Conclusion

As I said before, you underestimate your potentional. As I sat writing this, I was trying to come up with some sort of criticism, but I really can't think of anything. Good work, and welcome to doomworld!

 

[RHhe82]

Thank you! I also very much like the idea of levels looping onto themselves and interconnecting -- something that I really love about other games such as Dark Souls (the first one).

 

In any case, in the opening post I updated the link to a version of the WAD where I fixed the bugs you found -- indeed, the lava should always hurt. This was a problem during development. I would make a significant portion of the map, and then find out Ultimate Doom Builder had copied the damaging properties onto every sector I had created since the last lava pit. So, I decided to dispense with the damaging properties until the map would be finished. I knew I would miss some of the pits. (A similar problem occurred with enemies; I would use pistol zombies for voodoo dolls and mark them as not counting towards completion. Then I would move onto populate actual level with monsters, only to find out none of them count towards completion. Hopefully I fixed all those, as well!).

 

The floating stimpak is a mystery. It seemed to have been place slightly on top of the crates. I am certain that I had originally placed firmly on the center of the floor, and mostly likely moved it accidentally. My guess is, UDB had the thing selected when I thought I was moving something else.

 

What was the one time you felt lost? Because that was something I put some effort into, but found the task difficult; For instance, the switch that enables access to the red key has red lights on its sides, and I thought that might be a bit vague. Another place where it was hard to avoid was the switch that opens up another switch near the yellow key, ie. the switch in the room with the rocket launcher. There is a green signal lamp that brightens up when you press the switch, and a similar green signal is in the yellow key area. But, if you miss that (or haven't yet even visited the yellow key area, which is very likely), you couldn't make the connection.

Edited August 27, 2021 by RHhe82
Typo

[Biodegradable]

I quite enjoyed this map, fam. Well done :^) Welcome to Doomworld!

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Biodegradable

[Knarkbossen]

Nicely done! I really enjoyed your map as well. It definitely exceeded my expectations after the modest introduction. It took me 25 minutes to complete on HMP. For me this difficulty level was actually just right (i.e. I suck).

 

Things that stood out to me:

- Working your way through the base and then descending into the mountain for the second part of the level is a great premise. It nicely breaks up the level into two distinct parts where the mountain feels more dangerous with harder enemies and rougher terrain.

- I ran out of ammo a few times, but there was always more to be found by casually exploring the level.

- Nice detailing and lighting in certain places. Not overly detailed, but interesting visual ideas here and there. The final parts of the interior of the mountain was a little dark for my taste, but I think this is by design (having to wait for the strobing light in order to aim at enemies). I got a little frustrated not being able to see what was attacking me.

- The map effectively hints at various secrets that make me want to replay the level to find more of them. I passed by a lot of rooms/platforms/waterfalls the first time that I know should have a secret of some sort.

[Silhouette 03]

1 hour ago, RHhe82 said:

What was the one time you felt lost?

It was finding the switch that lowers the bars near the switch that raises the bridge to the yellow key. I think I may have not noticed the door that opens to reveal the switch. Don't worry about it too much though. I tend to get lost very easily.

[RHhe82]

55 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

I quite enjoyed this map, fam. Well done :^) Welcome to Doomworld!

 

 

 

Nice, and very valuable video! I'm guessing you had the same orientation issues as SilentWolf, ie. in the base section it is not clear what the switches (especially the one that opens the other switch that raises the stairs to yellow key) do. That's something I clearly underestimate, probably because I know exactly what the goals are. It's hard to imagine a true blind playthrough.

 

Also, in the base section you (first) skipped an ambush, something I couldn't foresee! But that's a good thing, I like when that happens. There is a back door to that particular ambush, anyway, in case someone is seeking 100% kills and yet acrobats their way the first time.

 

It was also gut-wrenching to see you come out of the blue door, looking at a secret cave before raising the shortcut. Makes me think that the shortcut should be raised automatically when the player emerges from the door.

[Astro X]

Very nice stuff here!

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Astro X

[RHhe82]

31 minutes ago, Astro X said:

Very nice stuff here!

 

 

Nice! Very good points you mention there.

 

Your video further exemplifies the problem of the switches activating something remotely. At one point, in the brown area before you find the plasma gun, you ask "Where's my super shotgun" -- I take it no one has yet to find the early SSG? :) I put something 

Spoiler

(like a red torch you see when you start the level and look a little bit to the left, towards the lava lake :))

to telegraph its presence in plain sight, and I was *sure* everyone would find it right away.

 

There was one secret you found in unintended way, the one where you later thought the lift was one time only. I checked, it's repeatable, whew! (The lift is activated nearby, and the switch is only intended in case you get stuck behind).

 

And I really have to do the automap-tweaks, keep forgetting that. But I guess it's not relevant, but it seems silly when all the voodoo areas and sneaky ambushes show up in advance.

 

 

[baja blast rd.]

 

Good first map.

 

One of my favorite things this does is the secrets start to be a little minigame in itself. For a map this size there are a lot, and they are rewarding yet not too tricky -- so you are encouraged to keep your eyes peeled and thoughts on where the next might be. Traps too have that effect. None were too rough, but anticipation starts building, and every empty area is a reason to be a little nervous. To me, the current of suspense and engagement exceeded how good any individual section was, which is cool, because that sort of "momentum" can be hard to come by when designing.  

 

The layout is confusing at times, largely because of some areas' uniform texturing and sometimes a lack of clear landmarks. There are a lot of tunnels. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It's more whether you're going for that or something more flowy. (I only mention it because sometimes it is hard to tell.) 

 

The earthquake near the end was very unusual because, until that, you use no similar prominent GZDoom features and the map feels very classic. Just for comparison, simulating an earthquake with falling sectors would not have felt unusual because it would be within the map universe's "logic" to that point. 

 

About something you said towards the end of your post: not all modern maps are hyperdetailed, in fact most tend not to be quite that. The texturing in Mountain Base leaves room for improvement, but instead of seeking out "high-detail" wads to learn from, you can study wads that pull off minimalist texturing well (like from the D2TWID/BTSX-associated authors). They have a certain way of compositing a scene out of efficient usage of a few textures and features, such that an area can look "full" even without lots and lots of linework. That is not a huge philosophy change from this map in terms of focus.

 

(Sorry for the occasional bad frame skips and stuff in this recording, had a few too many other programs open ig.) 

 

edit: also this is not a short map at all. seems the right length for itself, and medium-sized overall. it's not a big map but there is a lot to do in it. 

[Guilhem Saint-Gaudin]

Hey :)

That's definitely a good map

I liked the outdoor area and the cave a lot

The inside was a bit confusing with the keys and the switches (or maybe I suck at finding my way that's more than possible)

The special effects like that one tilted plane or the earthquake doesn't feel really necessary

But yeah you have the ability to do great maps

[Endless]

GZDoom 4.5.0 | Ultra-Violence

 

So, I read mountain, and I love mountains. Anything else to say? :P

 

I think that for your first map after such a long hiatus, you have created something fascinating. I love the vanilla aesthetic combined with the UDMF quirks, add to that a balanced and fast combat and you have a great piece of work in your hands. The visuals of the map are a sweet combination of the classic outdoor style with vanilla interiors; the white rocks adorning the mountain bathed in lava and inside, a cool tech-base that seems to be slowly reclaimed by nature. The map layout is slightly complex, but quite expansive, giving a sense of adventure that I quite enjoyed. The variety of rooms and scenarios connected under a common narrative make it feel like a small odyssey through a historical piece of Doom. Not bad at all.

 

You say you like oppressive gameplay, and I'm usually of the same mind, but I think this map strikes the right balance. It's not unnecessarily unfair but it's not boring either. It's fast, intense and has a good combat+exploration ratio. Just the way I like them.

 

GZDoom effects can be noticed sprinkled in here and there. Maybe a little more work with sector lighting would have been appreciated. The cave areas with flickering lava is not much to my taste, but that's mostly a relative thing. On the other hand, this also gives a nice atmosphere to the map. Thanks to its dark and, at times, cramped design, the map feels like a comforting punishment for our Doom Marine. I like it.

 

Enjoy your map, man. I think you did a great job and managed to combine the simplicity of vanilla with the effects of UDMF. Fun and with a great sense of adventure, the map expands its boundaries and does it very well. Only one gripe... this looks more like a volcano than a mountain, hehe. :P

[Degree23]

Great map. The non-damaging lava was the main thing I noticed that felt odd, but you already have that covered.

 

I did get lost after hitting the switch by the Rocket Launcher. I couldn't work out where on Earth I needed to go next. Because the door it opens is a reasonable distance away, even when you've gone back up the stairs and through the doorway, the opened door is still not in view from where you are unless you go far into the room. Maybe the appearance of a couple of weaker enemies (as it's quite early on) in the area of the Red Key once you've hit that switch, to indicate that you should be investigating in that area, would have helped. It's an idea I've seen used to great effect in other maps where you need to go over the same part of a map more than once.

 

Otherwise a fantastic job.

[RHhe82]

I updated the map one last (?) time and call it ready for the time being - hopefully it'll be re-released some day as a part of small collection of maps. Having done one map, it feels possible. On the other hand, my summer vacation is ending this weekend...

 

If you already played the map, there are no major tweaks or additions. In short, I tried to liven up some parts of the base (add some detail, tweak some minor lighting issues etc.), but for the time being I need to take a good look at the architecture of maps I enjoy and admire (such as BSTX1, which I've played the first ten levels or so). I also tried to address mis-orientation issues, but I think an elegant solution would be lead to major revamping of the base part of the map, and I don't think that's worth it, at least for now.

 

Some spoilery details on the changes: 

Spoiler

- The switch at the rocket launcher now spawns some imps leading to the yellow key area. Just a couple to make it look like some imps just found their way in while you were busy traversing the base. Some of you suggested something like this, and I think it's a good idea when it's difficult to have the player see the effects directly. (Another would be to have some sort of monitor next to the switch aimed at the opening doors, as I think that's possible with ZDoom, but that feels such a blunt instrument to employ here; more Duke Nukemly than Doomy).

- I opened a shortcut from the STONE6-area back into the red key room. Also, when the monster ambush commences, there's now a slight earthquake to indicate something might have happened somewhere, ie. the platform holding the red key has "collapsed". This minor earthquake also makes the later earthquake in the lava caves more approriate rather than some ZDoom-gimmick just for the sake of it, in my opinion.

 

So, I again want to thank all of you who played, feels such a warm welcome to the community! The videos and discussion has been very insightful.

Edited August 28, 2021 by RHhe82
Elaborated a bit more.

[TheNoob_Gamer]

I was pleasantly surprised to hear Desk Lamp playing in this map! It's a bit inappropriate, but one of my all-time favorite video tunes, so eh. Nice map otherwise!

[RHhe82]

36 minutes ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

I was pleasantly surprised to hear Desk Lamp playing in this map! It's a bit inappropriate, but one of my all-time favorite video tunes, so eh. Nice map otherwise!

I really like Desk Lamp (and Rynn’s music in general) as well. It is a bit inappropriate, but when I was designing the map back in August, I quickly grew accustomed to the perceived mismatch :-D

[FireWarden1000]

I completed Mountain Base MountainBase.wad with LZDoom on Hurt Me Plenty, excellent map design, 85/100. The screenshots for the map appears to be the typical DOOM 2 map with the usual tech bases. This is not true, this map is very original, and involves more exploration instead of fast paced combat. I usually see maps that will send waves of enemies at you in a short amount of time. In Mountain Base, the enemies are spread out through the entire map. The level of difficulty in the map is well balanced out. This map is more than a tech base, the player will have to enter the mountain. All you are missing is a real story line, and a text file. My recommendations, add more middle tier enemies to the map to increase map difficulty. Middle tier enemies will have more health, and will require the player to use more ammo.

[RHhe82]

7 hours ago, FireWarden1000 said:

I completed Mountain Base MountainBase.wad with LZDoom on Hurt Me Plenty, excellent map design, 85/100. The screenshots for the map appears to be the typical DOOM 2 map with the usual tech bases. This is not true, this map is very original, and involves more exploration instead of fast paced combat. I usually see maps that will send waves of enemies at you in a short amount of time. In Mountain Base, the enemies are spread out through the entire map. The level of difficulty in the map is well balanced out. This map is more than a tech base, the player will have to enter the mountain. All you are missing is a real story line, and a text file. My recommendations, add more middle tier enemies to the map to increase map difficulty. Middle tier enemies will have more health, and will require the player to use more ammo.

 

Thank you for the feedback, it really warms the heart to hear good, and on the other hand very inspiring to hear constructive criticism!

 

I agree that the map should a little bit harder - at the least first half of the map. Not by much necessarily, but a tiny bit. I was contemplating the chance of putting the map available on idGames at some point, and if I were to do that, I'd definitely do some additional polishing, and most likely try to make it a bit more difficult, and balance the difficulty levels and add a tad more detail to it. That's just gonna have to wait until CP obligations are done and I've had had the chance to do some more practice mapping.

[Clippy]

This was great fun - I got a little confused at first but then I got er goin -- the map got better and appropriately upping the difficulty as you went along - especially fond of the secrets - wonderful first map well done good times

 

 

[RHhe82]

3 hours ago, Clippy said:

This was great fun - I got a little confused at first but then I got er goin -- the map got better and appropriately upping the difficulty as you went along - especially fond of the secrets - wonderful first map well done good times

 

 

Nice, thank you! You seem to have had the exact same problems as others, that being disoriented in the first half as to what to do. It’s easy as a mapper to assume things appear more clear than what they actually end up being, that surely everybody remembers non-descript color-locked doors whenever they pick up the corresponding key somewhere.

 

At least the imps seem to have guided you just as I hoped, when you find the rocket launcher room with a switch and the ”green orb”, which in my mind was an ”obvious” hint as to the switch does.

 

Aside from that, slow lifts are painful. While testing myself, I didn’t really pay attention to it as I knew the red key switch and the access to the second half of the map.

 

Also: good job with the secrets! There was one secret in almost plain sight in volcano I think you missed… but one secret (very near that, in fact) is such that I don’t know if anyone could find without knowing - I only made it as I accidentally reached a ledge I had designed as an inaccessible caconest…

[Sectorslayer]

This is an amazing piece. You should do this again. 👍