Wad/Map Difficulty Scaling

[GarrettChan]

Nope, I don't rate things like this.

 

ZM is a god for sure, but there are different fields where they have other notable players, so solely using ZM as a standard is strange. Also, TBH, I don't know how ZM casually plays because I only see him speedrun, which is super different from casual plays.

[i suck at nicknames]

On 9/22/2021 at 5:15 PM, Nefelibeta said:

You'll really need a difficulty above 7 when it comes to the danger zone wads.

What're the Danger Zone wads? Are you referring to the harder mapsets in general, or is there really a wad called Danger Zone?

[i suck at nicknames]

On 9/30/2021 at 7:18 PM, Lewonx said:

Update:

- Added 4 new wads:

1. Congestion 1024

2. Doomsday of UAC

3. Magnum Opus

4. Pirate Doom

 

Stuff I'm planning to cover:

1 Monster

10 Sectors

2002 A Doom Odyssey

Aliens TC

Alien Vendetta

Ancient Aliens

Antaresian Reliquary

Back to Saturn X Episode 1

Back to Saturn X Episode 2

Base Ganymede

Bloody Steel

Burgeois Megawad

Cleimos

Cleimos 2

Comatose

Community Chest

Community Chest 2

Community Chest 3

Community Chest 4

Congestion 64

Congestion 192

Congestion 384

Cyberdreams

Deathless

Deus Vult

Deus Vult 2

Dimensions (if I can)

Doom the Way Id Did

Doom the Way Id Did: the Lost Episodes

Doom 2 in Spain Only

Doom 2 in the Name Only

Doom 2 Redux

Doom 2 the Way id Did

Doom Zero

Hellbound

Hellevator

Hell Ground

Hell Revealed

Hell Revealed 2

Heretic Invades Doom

Icarus: Alien Vanguard

Italo Doom (if I can)

Epic

Knee Deep in Phobos

Knee Deep in Zdoom

Lillium

Linear Doom

Lunatic

Master Levels

Memento Mori

Memento Mori 2

Miasma

Moonblood

Mordeth

No End in Sight

No Chance

No Rest for the Living

Okuplok (if I become a doomgod)

Overdose

Phobos Anomaly Reborn

Phobos Mission Control

Phobos Revisited

Requiem

Rowdy Rudy

Rowdy Rudy 2 

Scythe 2

Serenity

Sigil

Speed of Doom

Stardate 20x6

Stardate 20x7

Strange Aeons

Struggle - Antaresian Legacy

Sunlust (not sure, if I can beat this)

Swim with the Wales

Tech Gone Bad

Temple of the Lizard Men

Temple of the Lizard Men 2

Temple of the Lizard Men 3

Temple of the Lizard Men 4

The Refinery

The Ultimate Torment and Torture

THT Threnody

TNT Revilution

Trinity College

Valiant

Vanguard

Whitemare

Whitemare 2

Winter's Fury

Zaero

Zdoom Community Map Project

Zdoom Community Map Project 2

Zone 300

Zone 400

Zpack

 

Obviously, I'll probably never cover all of these and cover other stuff, but this is just what to expect from me in the future in general.

Include:

Combat Shock (one of Ribbicks' easier wads in comparison, but still expert-tier in difficulty)

Death In Excess (the name says it all, makes Sunlust look like a cakewalk)

Eviternity (surprised you haven't added this; very popular and gorgeous megawad which can get very very difficult at some points)

Flotsam (kaizo-tier difficulty)

Haste (UV Sunlust tier tough, but still doable)

Holy Hell Revealed (basically Okuplok x 2 lmao)

Japanese Community Project (a very fun and inspired mappack- at its toughest, its matches Plutonias hardest maps)

Heartland (challenging but very very fun)

Mayan Mishap (very short but extremely fun and fairly tough mappack with custom monsters and blistering fights)

Microslaughter Community Project (bite-sized but very brutal)

NOVA trilogy (3 community project megawads of very high quality and decent difficulty)

Resurgence (very tough map pack; equal to Speed Of Doom)

Sunder (one of the most impressive and unique and difficult things ever conceived the community, though you will need hours if not days to complete it)

Tarnsmans Projectile Hell (fun and playable but extremely challenging/nigh impossible at some points)

 

into the ones you've added here. You wont regret it. 

[Pseudonaut]

18 minutes ago, i suck at nicknames said:

Combat Shock (one of Ribbicks' easier wads in comparison, but still expert-tier in difficulty)

 

Combat Shock is by dannebubinga, not Ribbiks.

[i suck at nicknames]

11 hours ago, Pseudonaut said:

 

Combat Shock is by dannebubinga, not Ribbiks.

They've collabed so much at this point, that I dont think it makes much of a difference lol

[Lewonx]

Mini update:

- Added 3 new wads:

1. Area 51

2. Doom the Way id Did

3. Doom City

 

Had some free time to play more Doom. Next update definitely won't be for a while.

[Lewonx]

Mini update:

Added 9 new single map wads:

1. Bermuda Triangle

2. Dark Labs

3. dead.wire

4. Mercury Rain

5. Outer Base

6. Prison Camp

7. Punisher

8. The Unholy Trinity

9. The Zdoom Community Map Project Take 1

[Lewonx]

Update:

Added 4 new wads:

1. Amalgama

2. 50 Monsters

3. Icarus: Alien Vanguard

4. Phobos Anomaly Reborn

 

I originally planned for this to be a mini update, but 50 monsters turned out to be way longer and harder than I expected, so I had to change plans.

[Captain POLAND]

Great job. What WADs are next on the agenda?

[Lewonx]

7 hours ago, Captain POLAND said:

Great job. What WADs are next on the agenda?

A couple single map wads will be next: Amalgamation 2: Cairo A.D. (the sequel to Amalgama), Hellrun, Demonastery, etc.

Then I will take on Doom 2 Redux, Cyberdreams, Rush, Vanguard and Lunatic.

Master levels, Valiant, Knee Deep in Zdoom and The Ultimate Doom the Way Id Did are probably next.

Then I will do Alien Vendetta. Just Alien Vendetta alone will be enough for an update. There is like 3 maps that can rival Fire and Ice in thermes of difficulty, alongside like 5 maps that are harder than Go 2 It.

Don't expect any big updates soon.

[Lewonx]

Mini Update:

- Added 6 new single map wads:

1. Amalgamation 2: Cairo A.D.

2. Citadel II

3. Citadel of Sorrow

4. Demonastery

5. Green Inferno

6. HELLRUN

 

- Reconsidered some of the map rankings

1. Baron's Den from TNT Evilution goes from 2.5 to 3

2. The Savage Abyss from Jenesis goes from 5 to 5.5

3. M/S Futura from Scythe goes from 2.5 to 2

[Captain POLAND]

Great job. Any chance you can do Base Ganymede, the WAD I'm playing now?

 

Also I can't wait for Alien Vendetta.

[Lewonx]

10 hours ago, Captain POLAND said:

Great job. Any chance you can do Base Ganymede, the WAD I'm playing now?

 

Also I can't wait for Alien Vendetta.

I will do Base Ganymede, though, probably you finish playing it way before that.

[Captain POLAND]

1 hour ago, Lewonx said:

I will do Base Ganymede, though, probably you finish playing it way before that.

 

What about the Master Levels? They're technically official releases.

[Lewonx]

3 hours ago, Captain POLAND said:

 

What about the Master Levels? They're technically official releases.

I will do them.

[Lewonx]

Update:

- Added 3 new wads

- 1-Hour Speedmapping 2018

- DEEPATAK

- Doom 2 - Flashback to Hell

 

This isn't what I promised, so you can count this as new year bonus. Since it's the end of the year, I decided to finish some old jobs. I don't even remember where or how I stumbled upon Doom 2 - Flashback to Hell, but it looked interesting and I decided to downloaded it, since I would have probably forgot the name and never found it again, if I didn't download it immediately.

DEEPATAK is the last wad from Doomkid's video (not counting the deathmatch wads and Doomed 2 Die (which isn't worth doing), and Aliens TC (which Doomkid barely talked about)).

Lastly, I accidentally downloaded Speedmapping 2018, while looking for another wad some time ago.

 

So, the new hardest map is For Zzul. This one nearly broke me. It is the first map I encountered that I thought might be too much for me. I was considering quitting, when I got to the platforming part, but then I somehow fluked two successes like 30 bullets apart at the end of my practice. Right after my practice I decided to search who Zzul is, since that name sounded familiar. And, turns out it is the creator of Dimensions. Have I found that out before practice or if the fluke during that practice didn't happen, I would have quit immediately after seeing word Dimensions. On december 30 I decided to grind this map the entire day. As the time gone, I started to become more and more consistent: getting past cyberdemons multiple attempts in a row, getting past platforming 1/3 and later 1/2 of attempts that got there, killing more and more arch-viles nearly each time I get to them, util I finally beat it. This is the hardest thing I ever did in Doom (even E1M3 pacifist wasn't that hard) and might be the hardest thing I ever did in any game.

 

Happy New Year!

[Captain POLAND]

I think when you do maps that are that hard, you should be allowed to save mid-fight, just so you can get through them.

[Lewonx]

52 minutes ago, Captain POLAND said:

I think when you do maps that are that hard, you should be allowed to save mid-fight, just so you can get through them.

I don't see a point in scaling difficulty, if saves kill all the difficulty. This one might be a bad example, since no amount of saves will help you with that platforming section. But the difficulty of something like Fire and Ice or Launch Bay would be completely destroyed by saves.

 

If you want to see an opinion on map difficulty by someone, who uses saves, watch Dean of Doom.

[Captain POLAND]

9 minutes ago, Lewonx said:

I don't see a point in scaling difficulty, if saves kill all the difficulty. This one might be a bad example, since no amount of saves will help you with that platforming section. But the difficulty of something like Fire and Ice or Launch Bay would be completely destroyed by saves.

 

If you want to see an opinion on map difficulty by someone, who uses saves, watch Dean of Doom.

 

I was just thinking if you can't beat a map without saves, then by using saves and getting to the end and seeing every challenge it has to offer, you could better estimate the difficulty.

[Lewonx]

33 minutes ago, Captain POLAND said:

 

I was just thinking if you can't beat a map without saves, then by using saves and getting to the end and seeing every challenge it has to offer, you could better estimate the difficulty.

I'm still not doing it. I just don't like doing savescumming (I have nothing against people who use it).

[Lewonx]

Update:

- Added 3 new wads:

- Cyberdreams

- Lunatic

- Vanguard

 

-Partially added Rush

 

-Updated rules to account for partially added wads

 

Turns out Rush map 12 is too much for my PC to handle. I will get another computer this year and then I will do this map. I planned to partially add wads map by map anyway, when I get to super hard megawads, but instead it's technical difficulties that made me do it.

[Captain POLAND]

Have you tried a different source port? Maps that won't run at all for me in GZDoom work pretty well in PrBoom+, for example.

[Lewonx]

Update:

-Added Alien Vendetta

 

This was a big one. This was first time I took on a wad with a bunch of hard maps. It's surprisingly wasn't as hard, as I thought it would be, but it was still very exhausting.

 

I somehow managed to beat Demonic Hordes on my first try. I did watch a bunch of speedruns and let's plays of it before, and had a plan to deal with every fight, but still it was the biggest clutch moment I've ever had. Dean of Doom made this map sound way harder than it actually is.

[Lewonx]

Update:

- Added 4 new wads:

1. Atmospheric Extinction

2. Demonfear

3. Rowdy Rudy's Revenge

4. Ultimate Doom the Way id Did

 

- Reconsidered some of the map rankings

Odyssey of Noises from Plutonia goes from 2.5 to 3

[Lewonx]

Update:

- Added 4 new wads:

1. Mastel Levels

2. Crossing Acheron

3. Dante's Gate

4. Doom 2 Redux

[Captain POLAND]

Sigil next?

 

Also, 'Onslaught' is misspelled in your top 100 list.

 

Another thing, do you think that your skills are improving, so the difficulty ratings might be off? (Maps you played earlier and found harder might be easier now)?

 

 

[Lewonx]

2 hours ago, Captain POLAND said:

Sigil next?

 

Also, 'Onslaught' is misspelled in your top 100 list.

 

Another thing, do you think that your skills are improving, so the difficulty ratings might be off? (Maps you played earlier and found harder might be easier now)?

 

 

Fixed.

 

I'll do Sigil at some point, but it won't be next.

 

My skills are obviously improving and I try to think carefully, what rating to give to a map.

[Lewonx]

Update:

- Added 2 new wads:

- Valiant

- Zaero: Episode 1

 

- Reconsidered some of the map rankings:

Ring of Oblivion from Doom 2 - Flashback to Hell goes up from 3 to 3.5

Industrial Zone from Doom 2 Redux goes down from 4 to 3.5

The Abandoned Mines from Doom 2 Redux go down from 4 to 3.5

Duality from Jenesis goes up from 3.5 to 4

Fortress of Evil from Icarus goes up from 3 to 3.5

Brutality from Icarus goes from 2.5 to 3

Delusions from Rush go from 3 to 3.5

 

- Changed some top 5s

In The Ultimate Doom House of Pain goes above Containment Area

In Jenesis Duality goes above Devil's Industry

 

- Finished Rush and added map 12: The Destination.

 

And now, some extended words for my new number 1 hardest map, that would probably hold that spot for the next couple years.

 

The Destination

 

This is a over one and a half hours long non-linear monstrosity with over 1200 monsters. Where do I even begin with this one? How about with routing. Don't even try to beat this map blindly, watch a walkthrough, beat it with saves, and only then start to think about maxing it with no saves. The routing this map requires is absolutely insane. if you try to play this like a normal map, pick one path and go to the end, you will regret it. You need to constantly manage your resources: health, ammo, armor, everything is scarce. What route you should take? I don't know. What fight you should do next is depends on how well you did in the previous one and what resources you need to get next. You would need to constantly run all over the map, looking for resources or running away from fights, that you need to clean up later. This map is big and complicated chaotic mess, and it would take an entire essay to describe the route I used to beat it.

 

The fights? Let's start with spectres. This map contains the most sadistic use of spectres in anything ever. The lighting here somehow makes them completely invisible, unless you bump directly into them, and, in some cases, even then you can't see them. And these specters are often mixed in with hordes of revenants and hell knights. Face rocket means death, even if you survive initial hit, you will get disoriented and overwhelmed, and even if you survive that, the lost health will bite you back later. But the spectres aren't the only enemies that got special treatment. Arch-viles usually attack in pairs, in places with no cover, or a bunch of strong corpses to resurrect. There are places, where you are just have to stand your ground at take 80 damage flames.

 

But let's talk about the hardest fight - the room with a megasphere, cyberdemon, revenants, super mancubi (they are basically mancubi with more hp, that shoot slightly more fireballs) and imps. You get locked in that small room, you are on not that big platform, there is a pit with damaging blood and a ton of imps, in it there is a long not so thick platform, on the other side, there is another not that big platform, it has a cyberdemon and a horde of revenants, there are two columns with revenant in them and two columns with super mancubi on them, on the sides, there are two platforms with tons of imps on them.

 

What do you do? You carefully run around shooting your small platform, BFGing side imps and column revenants, while waiting for the cyberdemon to kill the horde, while being chased by a revenant death ball. And don't even think about BFGing the horde, because if you aggro them and they won't infight, you are dead. There is no good way to get rid of the death ball on your platform, so you'll have to jump into the pit, escape it. Then you have to BFG pit imps, and go up on the long platform via elevator and jump back to your starting platform. If revenants, super mancubi or cyberdemon, decide to target you, while you're using the lift, you are dead. If you survive all that, lure cyberdemon to kill the super mancubi and waste him with plasma. This room absolutely requires good rng, precise movement and nerves of steel.

 

And this room is 30 minutes into the map. So, prepare to lose half an hour of progress over, and over, and over...

 

The rest of the map includes: being jammed in a corner, while fighting off a bunch of hell knights and revenants, who want to get close to you, trying to kill an arch-vile, who has a bunch of corpses to use as a meat shield, and often hides in in a place you can't easily shoot at, while trying to save as much ammo as possible, trying to pick two arch-viles in a fight, where cover somehow helps them more, than it helps you, while they have a bunch if buddies to resurrect, fighting a spiderdemon almost in the open, while trying to conserve health, being forced into pacifist mode, to lure barons and cyberdemons into infight, while dodging their shots and platforming simultaneously, snipe an arch-vile, while running away from an army of demons, while a bunch of enemies near that arch-vile confuse your auto aim, which is already wonky, because the arch-vile is way above you, squeeze through a wall of barons, while still being chased by that army and being shot at by two cyberdemon snipers, fight over 100 revenants at once, get teleported into a room, where you are surrounded by enemies, while having barely any health left, fight more completely invisible spectres, revenant hodes, arch-viles, cyberdemons and more, while constantly having to manage every bit of ammo, and when you reach the end, there is a chance that the map will glitch out and you get softlocked...

 

This map speaks volumes of meaningless agony to me and seems delight in the torment it brings, not unlike an agent of hellish torture in video game form it is without a doubt the most malicious, nihilistic, soul grinding Doom level I have ever played and it's author's singleness of purpose is frightening to ponder.

 

Grade: F

Difficulty: X

 

In all seriousness, beating this is the hardest thing I've done in my life. If I haven't promised to beat this, I would have quit, when I got to that awful cyberdemon and megasphere room. If you wonder, I haven't lost a run, because of the glitch, but I did encounter it in practice.

 

This map by the way was made by the same guy, who made number 2. Im surprised, that Archie isn't famous for making ridiculously hard maps, especially since he likes to put them in the otherwise not that hard wads. Then again, the rest of Rush and his other work doesn't look nowhere near as hard, so maybe, I somehow stumbled upon his two hardest levels.

 

Also, I absolutely recommend to watch Ancalagon's UV Max Speedrun of this map. Beating this in 21 minutes is completely nuts.

 

As for me, I'll do a couple of easier updates, then will take a big break.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Lewonx

[Shepardus]

53 minutes ago, Lewonx said:

And this room is 30 minutes into the map. So, prepare to lose half an hour of progress over, and over, and over...

Imagine having to run the map an hour into a D2All!

[Captain POLAND]

How about Moonblood? I'm playing that now.