What ruins Doom (1993)?

[Doomkid]

This is 99% off topic, but I’ve noticed a trend of people saying “Doom 1993” lately. You don’t need to say the year, it’s implied :) if you’re really worried about people thinking you mean the new Doom, just say “Doom 1”.

 

Maybe it’s just because of seeing it called nothing but “DOOM” for 20+ years, but for some reason adding the date just looks tacky to me, but it’s a trend that’s bload up within the last year.

 

To try and put why this weirds me out into perspective: It feels as weird as if people started saying “Mario 85” to refer to the first Mario..

[7Mahonin]

  On 8/28/2021 at 3:47 AM, Doomkid said:

This is 99% off topic, but I’ve noticed a trend of people saying “Doom 1993” lately. You don’t need to say the year, it’s implied :) if you’re really worried about people thinking you mean the new Doom, just say “Doom 1”.

 

Maybe it’s just because of seeing it called nothing but “DOOM” for 20+ years, but for some reason adding the date just looks tacky to me, but it’s a trend that’s bload up within the last year.

 

To try and put why this weirds me out into perspective: It feels as weird as if people started saying “Mario 85” to refer to the first Mario..

Expand  

I agree but It’s Id’s fault for calling Doom 4 just Doom. Nobody would be doing this with 1993 and 2016 if they just kept that title or added some sort of tag line like they did with Doom Eternal.

[ChestedArmor]

  On 8/27/2021 at 10:14 PM, Gustavo6046 said:

Wait, everyone already pointed out "ruined" is a strong word, but this sentence makes it feel like maybe you truly do dislike the entirety of Doom because of them.

 

So I request clarification, and I mean just for the sake of avoiding misunderstanding – do you think they ruin all of Doom, or that they're just bad parts of Doom? What precisely did you mean when you write that?

 

I take it English isn't your first language lol. It's not mine either. So don't feel too pressured if you fear people may misunderstand you. That's natural; misunderstanding is an inevitable part of language! 50% of being good at getting your point across is preventing misunderstanding; the other half is handling it with care when it actually, nay, inevitably, happens. :)

 

(If I sounded patronizing in the slightest there, I apologize! Do let me know and I'll fix it!)

Expand  

I chose the word "ruin" activly, because it's short, snappy and brings up some question and interest for the comment.

I have to agree, from the reactions it now looks too strong of a word, but I think it still fits the original idea:

I said "what ruins Doom" because when I wanted to replay it, I thought "ugh. I don't want to"

even though I even prefer Doom I over Doom II and I haven't played Doom I for a while.

It still was fun to play through the orignal 3 episodes, but only after using cheats to skip the levels I've mentioned.

I think I'd have kick the bucket when I had to go through e2m7 one more time.

Edited August 28, 2021 by ChestedArmor

[Firedust]

What ruins Doom? The fact that it set a bar so high, Doom 2 could never hope to live up to its level of sheer awesomeness.

[BaileyTW]

Ruins is a strong word, but also e2m9 and the way you get there make me feel strong negative feelings. In a continuous playthrough, where I just feel obliged to go for all maps, that's the first sort of hitch in the road, a major one.

 

Then I'm fine for a bit and then Hell Keep and Slough of Despair. Hell Keep the criticism is obvious, but I don't know about Slough of Despair. It's good on paper, but there's just something about Slough of Despair that makes me not like it. It's not even a confusing layout because I memorized it out of spite. Maybe it's all the grey. Then things pick up until Limbo. Ruin is again a strong word I'd only use around 1 map. Limbo does not ruin. Limbo disappoints.

I assume since you said Doom 1993 this does not include episode 4, which I guess is fine for this. Went through the game today and I just played e4m1-3 and e4m9 and then chose to skip to e4m6 and then stop there, which I guess describes partly how I feel about episode 4. The other maps aren't even bad just, I get tired by episode 4 I guess. I guess fatigue "ruins" episode 4.

[Nikku4211]

  On 8/28/2021 at 3:47 AM, Doomkid said:

This is 99% off topic, but I’ve noticed a trend of people saying “Doom 1993” lately. You don’t need to say the year, it’s implied :) if you’re really worried about people thinking you mean the new Doom, just say “Doom 1”.

Expand  

But then I'll be worried about people thinking the new Doom is the 1st Doom and are completely unaware that Doom was originally a 1993 DOS game.

 

  3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Maybe it’s just because of seeing it called nothing but “DOOM” for 20+ years, but for some reason adding the date just looks tacky to me, but it’s a trend that’s bload up within the last year.

 

To try and put why this weirds me out into perspective: It feels as weird as if people started saying “Mario 85” to refer to the first Mario..

Expand  

 

It is tacky, but that's just how communication in general can be.

 

At least Nintendo didn't release another game simply called 'Super Mario Bros'. They released 'New Super Mario Bros', but not 'Super Mario Bros (2016)' or anything like that.

[PsychEyeball]

My least favorite thing with Doom is the somewhat limited enemy roster. To me, Imps, Cacodemons and Barons of Hell are essentially the same enemy, but with different health and damage values. But mechanically they are very similar, they throw basic and predictable projectiles at you. I'm so glad that about every new enemy of Doom II came up with new and different ways to attack you.

 

Also Barons are way too tanky for their own good. Thank goodness for Hell Knights, for they possess all the power of the baron without the tedious amounts of HP.

[Kinsie]

It's ruined by all the horrible violence. If only you could talk to these creatures, then perhaps you could try and make friends with them, form alliances... Now, that would be interesting.

[FireballCaco]

The janky mechanics like monsters being infinitely tall, and the hitscanners my god the hitscanners!

[OldDoomer]

  On 8/27/2021 at 5:39 PM, ChestedArmor said:

In conclusion

...

Nothing new to add really.

Everybody knows e2m6;e2m7;e3m5 and e3m7 sucks.

So...those maps ruin Doom(?)

 

Well, the question now would more be:

Can you say you've play through Doom, if you skipped those level?

Because I can't blame the people who would.

Expand  

 

Something you may consider is that the true OG Doom is Episodes 1 through 3. 4 you can effectively say is an extension to the original Doom lore and slots itself as an add-on to Ep 3 Inferno.

 

Doom plays out as the episodes say they do. Ep 1 is mostly intact tech bases and facilities. Ep 2 - aptly titled The Shores of Hell - is the similar tech and facilities with noticeable overruns of hell coming in. Ep 3 is Hell itself. When Doom 3 came out, it actually did a pretty good job of portraying this progression much better than the relative limitations of the original Doom, however Doom still retains this progression aesthetic and there are little blobs of how the levels are designed that reflect what they're trying to portray.

 

Think early on in Ep 1. You expect tech facilities to consist mostly of hard angles and rooms to be cleared. By the time you make it to Ep 2 you will start experiencing more complex exploration and having to account for weapon load outs and replenishment as you progress. You likely utilized the shotgun and chaingun consistently in Ep 1 as bullets and shells are easily replenished by hitscanner drops, but by Ep 2 you should be branching out to your other firearms in standard firefights knowing that bullet and shell drops won't be as consistent. Ep 2 even plays out with this in mind. In E2M1 you're giving a plasma rifle, and in E2M2 you're given a rocket launcher. Both of these by this point of your play through should start to be utilized more than your shotgun and chaingun, or similarly switched between fights to balance ammunition. By the time you reach Ep 3 you experience mostly demons, which do not produce ammunition drops.

 

I would say you very much still need to play though the entirety of the level sets to "play through" Doom.

 

I don't know if I have had any major qualms with Doom, but a select few I could think of are:

 

- The infinite height issues in relation to monsters caused by the game's engine. If this didn't exist, some better strategies could be employed against flying enemies. One immediate I could think of would be running under a Cacodemon to avoid projectiles. You have to strafe a Caco or Lost Soul regardless of how high they are.

- Doors only opening vertically always irked me. Horizontally not only would have helped with immersion but also fighting. When a door opens you have to literally wait for it to reach a height for you to traverse (fired weapons as well). A horizontally opened door would have a relative advantage of firing off a weapon as the door opens and immediately moving to cover.

- I've always thought the boss fights were a bit of a mixed bag, and the levels too simplistic. One thing I've always liked about Final Doom is Level 30 in both TNT and Plutonia is for the most part more of a "legitimate" level that has to be progressed. In Doom sans Ep 1 the boss fights are "hey man, here's the boss... which is probably going to move slowly and be easily beaten." I would have liked to have seen some more detail - and honestly sense of reward - in the boss fights.

[Faceman2000]

  On 8/27/2021 at 5:39 PM, ChestedArmor said:

Everybody knows e2m6;e2m7;e3m5 and e3m7 sucks.

Expand  

I unironically enjoy each of these levels, with E2M7 and E3M5 being top two for both of their respective episodes in my opinion.

[ENEMY!!!]

To me, nothing goes as far as to ruin it, but the boss in E3M8 was a bit underwhelming, especially after how they nailed the boss fight in E2M8 (at least by the standards of the time).

[out_of_service]

The Cyberdemon on E2M8. It has a tendency to stomp into those central chambers and ends up getting stuck in them for lengths of time. Not a very a good boss fight.

[DynamiteKaitorn]

E1M6 +E1M7 For being nightmares to navigate, especially for episode 1 maps.

E2M2 for that GOD. DAMN. SONG. >.<

E3M7, Cause I'd rather play through Episode 4 on UV+ before thinking about praising this map.

 

Outside of that, not really a whole lot. DooM itself is pretty well made for the most part so... I guess Vanilla limitations would be my next complaint?

[_bruce_]

  On 8/27/2021 at 8:42 PM, ChestedArmor said:

That's really intersting, because it's literally the first time I've heard somebody defending these maps.

I mean, Halls of the Dammed, I could understand,

but Spawning Vats, Unholy Cathedral and Limbo!?

I'd be really happy to hear what on these maps you liked.

Expand  

 

I loved the overall style and theme of these maps, especially "Spawning Vats" with its pseudo tech-design(absolutely adore the lighting in the starting room). I also liked the layout/look of "Unholy Cathedral" and didn't mind the "tele-hazzle". Limbo seemed different and unconventional and the labyrinth with the bio-suits was neat too. I would have to replay those maps to give a more detailed opinion though.

Edited August 30, 2021 by _bruce_

[Gifty]

  On 8/28/2021 at 8:19 AM, Kinsie said:

It's ruined by all the horrible violence. If only you could talk to these creatures, then perhaps you could try and make friends with them, form alliances... Now, that would be interesting.

Expand  

You win this thread!

 

If I just voice my preference for Ult Doom's SSGlessness enough times, it stands to reason that it will eventually become my forum title, my personality, my main recognizable trait and sole conscious thought in life

 

Also, I love Limbo, u guise r mean :ccc

Edited August 30, 2021 by Gifty

[TuomasGaming]

The maze like maps. Pretty much every episode's "Map 7" is maze-like.

Edited September 7, 2021 by TuomasGaming
Fix

[Faceman2000]

  On 9/2/2021 at 6:21 AM, TuomasGaming said:

The maze like maps. Pretty much every episode's "Map 8" is maze-like.

Expand  

I’ve never seen anyone describe Tower of Babel or Dis as a maze before.

[The BMFG]

i hate how maze like episode 2 and 3 are

[Dark Pulse]

  On 8/27/2021 at 5:39 PM, ChestedArmor said:

Everybody knows e2m6;e2m7;e3m5 and e3m7 sucks.

Expand  

I don't. I think E2M6 is one of the better maps in terms of atmosphere and disorienting you, and I am not a fan of Sandy Petersen's work for the most part. I did not want to go into that maze, I very much remember that.

 

I'll agree on most of the others, but to be fair...

• E2M7 was literally the first-ever map designed for the game. (Or perhaps more accurately, it's the earliest map that actually survived to the final version and did not get scrapped.)
• E3M5 is kind of confusing, but once you figure out its major gimmick, not too bad.
• E3M7 is pretty much the same thing, but it does feel a bit too big at times.

[Faceman2000]

  On 9/7/2021 at 12:15 AM, Dark Pulse said:

E3M7 is pretty much the same thing, but it does feel a bit too big at times.

Expand  

If it didn’t empty out so darn fast that level could be decently fun. There’s not nearly enough enemies.

[magicsofa]

I like all the original maps, the later ones get more disjointed and can be annoying for sure, but there are none that I feel the need to skip.

As for the SSG, hell no I don't miss it. I really don't find the SSG to be that fun to use in single-player. It's great for pinkies... and that's kind of it. Okay, it's kinda fun for groups of humanoids. But overall, it's just a small step above the regular shotgun's damage output, with half the stunlock ability. It's still completely outclassed by rocket and plasma weapons. The real place that it shines is in deathmatch, where it can (almost) completely replace its counterpart which is very difficult to aim at a moving player. But, since it's mainly regarded as the Best Weapon Ever, mappers design around it a lot of the time. Revenants? Super shotgun. Mancubi? Super shotgun. Way too many cacos? It's okay, I gave you the super shotgun. Just be glad you're not being forced to use the regular shotgun like those poor Doom 1 kids

[TuomasGaming]

  On 9/6/2021 at 11:06 PM, Faceman2000 said:

I’ve never seen anyone describe Tower of Babel or Dis as a maze before.

Expand  

Oh, sorry. I meant map 7.

[Teo Slayer]

Nothing, the original DOOM will always be oldie but a goodie

[TheGreenZap]

I don't feel anything ruins it. I actually like it more than ever and enjoy the original monsters without the additions that were in Doom II. Don't get my wrong, I love Doom II as well. But the original just has a great feel and if the level is designed right it's tons of fun!

 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

  On 8/28/2021 at 8:19 AM, Kinsie said:

It's ruined by all the horrible violence. If only you could talk to these creatures, then perhaps you could try and make friends with them, form alliances... Now, that would be interesting.

Expand  

If you want a DOS game where that happens, play Daggerfall.

[Astronomical]

Doom was ruined because of episode 3, that's it I answered the question we all can go home now. 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

Idk Doom is my favorite IWAD, followed by Plutonia and Doom2 and TNT tied for last. 

 

There are a few "meh" levels in Episode 2 and 3, but I love E2M1, E2M2, E2M3, E2M4, E2M5, E2M6, E3M2, and E3M6.

 

Also taking Episode 4 into account it's even better. The level designs and look of Thy Flesh Consumed are awesome. 

 

In general, I think the stand out Episodes are E2 and E4, but Knee Deep in the Dead is consistently solid, and Inferno still has some good maps. I find Doom's compact maps that have wraparound design, and secrets that open the level up more enjoyable to Doom 2's (still fun) gimmick oriented maps. I also like the grind nature of the combat, but I have no idea why. 

 

My only issues might be that the boss levels are a little boring, E1M8 being the best and it kind goes downhill from there. The exception being E4M8, that's actually one of the best commercial Doom maps, I hold it up to NRFtL and Doom 2. Final Doom might be too different to compare. Either way, Shawn Green knocked it out of the park imo. I also prefer the episodic structure of the game as opposed to Doom 2's straight shot through 32 maps. 

 

Also as lame as ExM8s are, they beat Doom 2 Map30. TNT and Plutonia have wayyyyyy better Map30s, honestly they're tied with Demonfear Map30 as my favorite Icon of Sin fights. If we allow slightly changed Icon fights, TNT Revilution beats them all. 

 

I rambled, but tldr: 

 

I don't think anything ruins Doom. It aged better than most shooters from it's time, with better levels than Duke 3d, Marathon, and Shadow Warrior, in my opinion.

[Faceman2000]

  On 9/7/2021 at 2:49 PM, Plank_Guy_89 said:

Doom was ruined because of episode 3, that's it I answered the question we all can go home now. 

Expand  

E3 kicks E2’s butt all over the place.

[Deadwing]

  On 8/27/2021 at 6:39 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

It's actually quite simple: No revenants, viles, mancs, trons, PEs HKs... and no SSG... So yeah, it's fine for what it is, but also very limited compared to doom II...

Expand  

 

All the things that players love to complain (except SSG lol)