[NOW AVAILABLE] The Ultimate TWANGO - A Deathmatch MegaWAD for The Ultimate Doom

[OpenRift]

6 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

I think a playtesting session is fine, but I for one welcome all and any feedback from mappers and non mappers alike. Frankly I think actively trying to “shut down” any future people who give feedback on all/any maps is really, REALLY counter productive.

 

Putting a sign up that says “if you plan to leave feedback on all the maps, just cram it instead” guarantees thus project won’t reach a reasonable fraction of its potential..

I agree, I think we should do both. I don't want to shut down feedback at all to be honest. I think feedback was a big help when we were working on TWANGO1, and it's a vastly better WAD for it. I think I'm probably going to postpone UTWANGO's planned Christmas release date to a bit later so we have more time to further test it and tweak things.

Edited December 22, 2021 by OpenRift

[Mr.Rocket]

3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I think a playtesting session is fine, but I for one welcome all and any feedback from mappers and non mappers alike. Frankly I think actively trying to “shut down” any future people who give feedback on all/any maps is really, REALLY counter productive.

 

Putting a sign up that says “if you plan to leave feedback on all the maps, just cram it instead” guarantees thus project won’t reach a reasonable fraction of its potential..

Who's trying to shut who down or telling anyone to cram it? That's not the plan.

Though I for one don't want to see every mapper have a list of different ideas for every map in the mega. which could take months and VERY counter productive. 20 things to fix in 30 maps before it even gets play tested in DM by the actual authors?

 

What I'm saying is, would you rather every author in the project want to have 2 or 3 things changed in your map as a whole? which I haven't looked but lets say there's about 15 mappers in the project each wanting 2 or 3 (different) things changed in your map, so if you do the math, you're ready to make 30 to 45 changes in your single map and possible 1/2 of them being a change that contradicts another change. From that point, wouldn't you just have to make a whole new map? And you're just 1 mapper, but all 15 mappers would have to do the same thing, and some of them having 2 maps in the project. I think you see what I'm getting at. This is why I suggested that we all get in a game and do our assessment there. Instead of each mapper/author in the project making a post of the list of the above changes. eg as we've had 3 posts of them already, so then we should still have 12 more post like that to go through? 

That just doesn't seem productive to me, well I guess unless you're in it for a laugh. :D

 

I think it would be much easier and funner? if every mapper got in one game and threw ideas out in every map that way while in game and in a DM game at that. ~ I'm not trying to put a stop to any constructive criticism, just trying to make things easier on all of us. 

 

Nvl, I have noted what other authors would like for me to change in my maps, which I'm fine with, but I'm also still wondering what other 20 or so more changes I may still have to do when the rest of the authors make a list? lol ~ which is what lead to my initial post about this.

But, if everyone continues to make a list anyway? then I'll join in a make a list too, but I'll wait till everyone gets done with their first. That way maybe I won't have to make such a large list. :D

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Pistoolkip]

About feedback

 

I work as a creative, and deal with feedback every day. My background is a creative writer but I mostly work in marketing. Let me make a few things clear about feedback:

 

- all feedback is useful. Even negative feedback, because it's still someone's response to your work. That said, try to make your feedback constructive and helpful

- feedback isn't personal. It's aimed at your work, not at you.

- Your process doesn't matter. Only the end result does. Whether you spend 2 hours on a map, or 200. So don't use your process or background to defend or excuse your work. The player doesn't know or care if you're new, busy, or speedmapping. All they experience is the final product.

- just because your map is criticized, doesn't mean it's bad, or can't be salvaged. Feedback is meant to improve your map, until it becomes the best you can make it. Don't you want to make a great product?

- a Doom Map, like many creative endeavours, is a half-product. It's not finished when it's published. It's finished when it's experienced by a player. And players have many different tastes, backgrounds, and experiences. 

- DM maps are very different than regular single player maps in how players approach them and experience them. They are experienced together with others, in a short time. Maps are typically played for 3-6 minutes. A player isn't going to try it over and over, nor can they skip it. A bad DM map ruins the flow of a DM server, causing people to drop out and not experience the rest of the maps. That's why, in my opinion, the treshhold for quality is higher than a regular CP. I'm okay with bland or undetailed maps, but maps with bad, frustrating, or unfun gameplay can do a lot of harm. Ugly maps less so, but maps with a lot of texture issues do make people drop out of a DM server if they've just joined.

 

Finally, feedback is always meant to improve a map. Some people have said you can't have an opinion about a map without having played an actual DM on it. That comes with a number of caveats. Yes, some aspects are best left to experience at an actual DM, but we're all mappers here. We can look at a map, in game, solo or with bots, even have a look on the editor, and still have valid feedback, because we have plenty of experience as both mappers and players.

 

Playtesting DM maps is a lot more difficult as playtesting a solo map, because you need to play dozens or hundreds of rounds with small iterations before you know everything. Luckily, Doom is a lot more forgiving than Counterstrike or other competitive shooters.

I'm all for playtesting a DM, but the logistics of this are complicated, so playing with bots already gives a basis of improvements that could be made.

 

Finally, feedback is a resource. Use it to improve your map. Make it the best you can. So more people get to enjoy it!

 

[NieMaMordy]

I think everyone should be able to leave their feedback if they want to. If different people give you different ideas about what should be changed, then its up to you as a mapper to decide if you want to change only one of these, both, or none. Feedback is just an opinion of another Player. While it is very helpful with finding stuff you overlooked at first, it isn't something that you are required to follow up on. The idea of doing a playtest session is very good, since actually playing the map is better than just going through it in single-player, but we should all be notified about it in a reply to this thread, at the very least. I had no idea about the previous playtest, untill you said that it happened.

[magicsofa]

I do agree somewhat with @Mr.Rocket, whose point, I think, is that it can get a little confusing if too many people are providing feedback at the same time. However, we definitely need criticism in order to create a quality WAD, and ultimately the desired quality is up to the project leader. I'm sure @Decay has been helpful to people in the past but just saying "give up, criticism won't help you" is stupid and emotional and should be ignored.

I will say this: I have noticed a recent trend of projects that are "just for fun" or have a fairly low bar in terms of quality. There's nothing wrong with that inherently, but I do think there may be some newer members who have not participated in many projects (or run any either heh), especially ones where you're expected to keep working on your submission until it's Very Good. Again, there's nothing wrong with speedmapping or casual projects - however I did not think this was going to be one of those types of projects. I think we should aim for good quality maps, first because the project is multiplayer focused and therefore we would like people to maybe even play it online, and second because it is an unusual choice (Doom 1 DM) and so we should really try and prove that a megawad in this camp can be worthwhile. We may not have a lot of quality wads to stand up against, but on the other hand we are standing up against the long history of Doom 2 being considered superior for deathmatch.

So, if anyone is feeling personally attacked or that they aren't good enough, please keep in mind that the critics are just trying to help improve your map, and that if you can get past the ego hurt that always occurs when you hear something negative about your creation, you'll end up with something you are even more proud of at the end. I didn't notice anyone in particular being a total brat about their map so I'm not specifically talking about anyone. I'm just saying, keep working at it, take criticism in stride, and you will improve as a mapper. A pivotal moment for me was back when I participated in the Heretic community chest, my first submission was pretty lame. I received fairly heavy criticism for it and I was immediately angry. But then, after taking a few deep breaths, I realized that everything they said was correct, and that I honestly hadn't put my best effort into the map anyway. So I scrapped it and started over, and the result was an order of magnitude better. I felt really good about the second try and the other people in the project liked it as well. I feel that my mapping skill increased a lot just in that one time of remaking a single map.

That said, also know that negative feedback is not the same as an order to change something. There will always be differing opinions and you have the time to consider whether you want to go ahead with someone's suggestion. If it comes down to stark disagreement between critic and author, then the project leader can be deferred to for a final decision (If that happens and the leader does give you an order however, just do it).

[Mr.Rocket]

Hey, first I want to apologize to @Doomkid if I was taken the wrong way in my response to your post above. I think I was still a little upset over Decay's "I don't care" attitude towards this project, and remembering how he tried to burn the previous project down before others even had a chance to sign up for it.

 

That and for the record I probably wasn't clear in my initial post about wanting to play test and wanting to put a stop to things in regards to critique.

I must have just assumed everyone knew what I was talking about but I'm probably not the best at explaining stuff. :P

 

It's not that I want to put a stop to criticism in general; I was trying to put a stop to every mapper in the project giving feed back that contradicts some previous feed back from another before it went too far. For example, one suggests that the hallway to be long, and the other suggest that the same hallway be short, and another thinks there shouldn't be a hallway at all. So how do you make everyone happy in this circumstance? Have a playtest.

Otherwise, it's going to get a little unclear on what someone actually wants from you.

I guess in short, that's what I was getting at in a nutshell. Sorry if it got booger'd up or whatever. ;)

 

Either way, it was just an idea, so let the assessment continue. ~ whether text based or visually.

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Doomkid]

It’s all water under the bridge as far as I’m concerned, it’s definitely not worth anyone being upset or worrying about it!

 

I do want to echo what MagicSofa said about us trying to improve these maps using feedback (and discernment of course, we don’t have to take all feedback into account after all). We do have the odds “stacked against us” so to speak in making a Doom 1 DM wad, and even if we do end up making a slightly more refined Doom 2 version down the road, we should aim to put our best effort forward. I’m glad the idea of a Christmas release was scrapped - given a little more time, I think this pack will turn out a lot better.

[Decay]

9 hours ago, magicsofa said:

I'm sure @Decay has been helpful to people in the past but just saying "give up, criticism won't help you" is stupid and emotional and should be ignored.
 

I'm not saying criticism won't help you. I'm saying certain project participants seem to be "immune" to criticism and that's not a good thing. This is based on reactions to criticism in the past on other projects and in this very thread. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. I agree with your post!

 

6 hours ago, Mr.Rocket said:

 I think I was still a little upset over Decay's "I don't care" attitude towards this project, and remembering how he tried to burn the previous project down before others even had a chance to sign up for it.

At no point did I ever say "I don't care" about the project. I gave criticism because I cared. I always want quality DM mapsets to be put out. I don't like seeing wasted potential, and I have always strived to provide feedback to better the maps where possible. Sometimes maps are not salvagable, and some people just can't accept that. I myself have a megawad's worth of scrapped maps because I didn't want to put out garbage, and I don't mind putting shitty maps aside/cutting out chunks/reformulating maps if people tell me they aren't good or fun or provide alternative suggestions to make them better. If you want to put out mediocre maps that only you and a couple friends play once in a blue moon, that's fine. Onto the heap of hundreds of wads out there that fall out of memory. If you choose to see criticism and pointing out fundamentally poor ideas for DM maps as a "burning down the project" I don't know what to say to you. I regret posting anything in the thread as it is, so that's all I've got to say.

[Mr.Rocket]

21 hours ago, Decay said:

Constructive criticism for twango didn't work the first time, why would it work now?

Doesn't that basically sound like you don't care?

Quote

At no point did I ever say "I don't care" about the project.

Besides I didn't say that you didn't care about the project, I said you have an "I don't care attitude" towards it.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken? I donno, either way it's good to hear that you might care?

It just doesn't come across like you do though to anyone.

 

Dude, I'm just a mapper in this project and I don't know why you're coming here and saying anything about anything to anyone, it just seems like you're tolling really, and I haven't seen you give any criticism on anything yet, aside from "criticizing" the project or authors in the project. That said, and that you're not even in the project, I really don't why you're here.

 

Anyway, we're currently in the process of refining the freak'n thing. May we continue?

 

Thanks!

 

 

  

Edited December 23, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[xdude_gamer]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Rocket said:

Doesn't that basically sound like you don't care?

Besides I didn't say that you didn't care about the project, I said you have an "I don't care attitude" towards it.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken? I donno, either way it's good to hear that you might care?

It just doesn't come across like you do though to anyone.

 

Dude, I'm just a mapper in this project and I don't know why you're coming here and saying anything about anything to anyone, it just seems like you're tolling really, and I haven't seen you give any criticism on anything yet, aside from "criticizing" the project or authors in the project. That said, and that you're not even in the project, I really don't why you're here.

 

Anyway, we're currently in the process of refining the freak'n thing. May we continue?

 

Thanks!

 

 

  

Well said.

[Jark]

So, will there be an organised DM in the future? 

 

I welcome all feedback, I can see a common trend from the feedback I have received thus far which is that my map is too dark - and so I should probably change that. I wanted to go for a moody Episode 3 vibe, but dark and DM do not mix well (can't bloody see anything) so, in a future iteration I shall brighten the map.

[OpenRift]

32 minutes ago, Jark said:

So, will there be an organised DM in the future? 

 

I welcome all feedback, I can see a common trend from the feedback I have received thus far which is that my map is too dark - and so I should probably change that. I wanted to go for a moody Episode 3 vibe, but dark and DM do not mix well (can't bloody see anything) so, in a future iteration I shall brighten the map.

In order to do dark DM right, you have to have a smaller space. Otherwise it's quite literally stumbling around in the dark.

[Mike_C]

On 12/17/2021 at 12:32 AM, OpenRift said:

I need map names from the following people

@Mike_C for E4M5

 

I picked the name "Noctifer's Panopticon". I also made some small aesthetic changes to my map:

 

TWANGO_DME4M5_v1.2.wad.zip

[Mr.Rocket]

Here's the requested updates to my maps:

E2M3_DEJAVU_v4.zip

* Moved the shotgun and slime area closer to the entering hallway, removed pillars in the slime area.
* Widened the broken wall entryways going to the tunnels, brightened up the tunnel a little.
* Removed the Invisibility sphere from the nukage area in the blue door hallway.

 

~ It was said that the moving floors back where the Plasma gun is, was too loud, as in it hurt your ears. 

Well, I tried to make it like the original map was, and I think that area is probably the most iconic area

in the map, but there's not much I can do about how loud the floors are, heh. 

You think I should take a row of those moving floors out maybe? i donno.. 

 

 

E2M6_ODAMN_v2.zip

*Lowered some detail areas on the ceiling, mostly just for visuals.
*Turned the previous silver exit only teleport into a normal teleport.
*Adjusted some steps with a few small texture changes.
*Made the Plasma gun much easier to see.

 

~ It was suggested that I should maybe lower the higher areas of the map. 

But I couldn't see much reason to do that, the highest platforms are only 128 units tall.

I don't like it being too linear, not that I don't mind somewhat linear maps, but you know. ~ vantage points are cool.  

~ probably need to light up that BFG switch a little..

 

 

As like before, let me know if you run into any issues.

 

Cheers!

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Pistoolkip]

Major overhaul for E4M3:

• Made the map much less narrow, expanding several area's
• The BFG is now easier and more intuitive to get, but also riskier
• Made it clearer which triggers do what
• Added an additional area to make the map less cramped
• Added some additional detailing, fixed a bunch of texture issues
• Used some Twango textures and flats

 

Included is the map as a single entity, and an updated version of the Beta 1.2 with the new map included (no other updated maps were added) so you can easily test this is all ports

 

 

@OpenRift

@NieMaMordy
Let me know what you think

E4M3DM_4.zip


I'm also updating E4M7 at a later date.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Pistoolkip

[Eternal_]

Updated E3M4

 

-Replaced some textures.

-Added some decoration.

-Balanced the gameplay.

-Not treating the BFG and Medikit as equals anymore.

-Added a new hallway to connect the two main rooms.

 

Download: Stygia.zip

 

[Astro X]

You guys talking about the quality of the maps, "low bar" and stuff. Which maps are not up to the standards of the community here? It would be better to name those maps here so that the authors can know about it and actually improve their maps, based on constructive feedback.

[NieMaMordy]

5 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

Let me know what you think

E4M3DM_4.zip

Great improvement! The method of lowering the plasma gun is much more clear now, thanks to using this light bulb textures on the walls. Same with the BFG teleporter room, which is now a more obvious death trap, making the Player instantly recognize that there is a switch that lowers the teleport. I also like the flow of the map much more, with wider passages, and some reworked rooms. This map is amazing now, that's for sure! 

 

3 hours ago, ProYT said:

Updated E3M4

Since your map was good to begin with, I am glad that you are still interested in making it even better. Great job! I was wondering why the Medkit was considered as good of a power up as BFG in the previous version of the map. Good that it has been fixed.
 

1 hour ago, Astro X said:

You guys talking about the quality of the maps, "low bar" and stuff. Which maps are not up to the standards of the community here? It would be better to name those maps here so that the authors can know about it and actually improve their maps, based on constructive feedback.

Me and some other folks posted our feedback for each map in the wad a few posts back. Just go back a few pages. From my point of view, there was only one map that I really hated, but still considered it a valuable addition to the wad (not telling you which one though. Its author already decided to improve it, so its not a problem to me anymore). In my opinion, most maps could use some improvements, and I mentioned them in my feedback post, but it's not like any of them is 'not up to the standards' or anything. Just a little bit of polish and they will all be great.

[NieMaMordy]

On 12/24/2021 at 2:33 AM, Mr.Rocket said:

~ It was said that the moving floors back where the Plasma gun is, was too loud, as in it hurt your ears. 

Well, I tried to make it like the original map was, and I think that area is probably the most iconic area

in the map, but there's not much I can do about how loud the floors are, heh. 

You think I should take a row of those moving floors out maybe? i donno.. 

Actually, there is one thing you can do to fix this. As it is now, all the moving floors are separate sectors. However, by pressing J key in the Doom Builder, when two or more separate sectors are selected in the 'Sectors mode', you can merge two sectors into one, even when they are not connected with each other in any linedef. Performing this makes no visual changes, but it results in both of the sectors being influenced by the linedef action at the same time, and having the same properties. In other words, the floors will move at exactly the same moment, to exactly the same height. But the most important thing here is that there will be only one sound of a lowering floor played, instead of two or more of them. I'd suggest merging some random floors in this room into connected sectors, to cut the number of sectors at least in half. The volume of SFX played in this room is currently unacceptable to me, and if I would change only one thing in the entire wad, that would be it. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by NieMaMordy
suggested fix

[Mr.Rocket]

2 hours ago, NieMaMordy said:

The volume of SFX played in this room is currently unacceptable to me, and if I would change only one thing in the entire wad, that would be it. 

 

Hmm, I just assumed that I made it like it would've been done in the original level. Does the original level have this same issue on your sound board? 

I can't tell on this end, but I'll look into it.

[NieMaMordy]

7 hours ago, Mr.Rocket said:

Hmm, I just assumed that I made it like it would've been done in the original level. Does the original level have this same issue on your sound board? 

I can't tell on this end, but I'll look into it.

The original e2m3 uses far less of the platforms than your map does. Less platforms means less sounds played at once, making the room have an acceptable volume, even if a bit louder than usual. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by NieMaMordy

[Mr.Rocket]

Update to my E2M3 map:

E2M3_DEJAVU_v5.zip

 

*Untagged a row of moving floor sectors by request having to do with db levels?

*Added a spawn point to the area as well.

[OpenRift]

On 12/26/2021 at 3:14 PM, Pistoolkip said:

Included is the map as a single entity, and an updated version of the Beta 1.2 with the new map included (no other updated maps were added) so you can easily test this is all ports

  

 

@OpenRift

@NieMaMordy
Let me know what you think

E4M3DM_4.zip


I'm also updating E4M7 at a later date.

You only need to include the map and any custom textures you decide to use, I can easily test without issue running alongside my current development version.

[OpenRift]

On 12/26/2021 at 5:04 PM, ProYT said:

Updated E3M4

 

-Replaced some textures.

-Added some decoration.

-Balanced the gameplay.

-Not treating the BFG and Medikit as equals anymore.

 -Added a new hallway to connect the two main rooms.

  

Download: Stygia.zip

 

Had to make some simplifications again to get rid of VPOs in certain spots. These changes okay with you?

Stygia_fix_12-28.zip

[OpenRift]

Okay, so E3M3 is open again, because @Bobby “lolmcswagger” is sick with you-know-what. Any takers?

[Eternal_]

41 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

Had to make some simplifications again to get rid of VPOs in certain spots. These changes okay with you?

Stygia_fix_12-28.zip

So there were vpo's again? Didn't know haha, I updated it without checking it in the editor thinking it would be good.

 

Yeah, looks good for me.

Edited December 29, 2021 by ProYT

[Scorpius]

12 hours ago, OpenRift said:

Okay, so E3M3 is open again. Any takers?

 

I'll have a go but don't mark me down and close the slot yet. :)

Edited December 29, 2021 by Scorpius

[Mr.Rocket]

21 hours ago, ProYT said:

So there were vpo's again? Didn't know haha, I updated it without checking it in the editor thinking it would be good.

Yeah it happens, and we all just have to accept it if it does.

In chocolate-doom-render-limits, I've found that if you walk around a map with your back hugging the wall/outskirts of the map and have everything in view at once is "usually the best way" to find VPO limits. Also tends to happen in maps that are widely open area and have nothing to block the view in between. Almost makes you wonder if it's why teleports were invented. Anyway, closing areas off, especially entryways to rooms n' such, is the hard part, though it's (hopefully) just having to remove some details.

 

16 hours ago, Scorpius said:

I'll have a go but don't mark me down and close the slot yet. :)

 

That's usually the way I put it too. :P

Either way, Awesome!

Welcome abord! ;)

 

 

[The_SloVinator]

Hey guys. Long time no see.

 

Here's the small fix of my map based on the criticism. 

- Indoor brightness increased by 16.

 

Happy new year. :)

gamma_base.zip

[Scorpius]

E3M3: Unto the Grave

Experiment map designed with tight gameplay and height variations. Detail is lacking due to segs overflows. Please let me know of any bugs to iron out and/or improvements to make, I am not too confident with this level compared to my other map...

GRAVE.ZIP

 

P.S. Not sure about MIDI choice yet. Might change if another matches mood!

Edited January 2, 2022 by Scorpius