[NOW AVAILABLE] The Ultimate TWANGO - A Deathmatch MegaWAD for The Ultimate Doom

[Mr.Rocket]

1 hour ago, NieMaMordy said:

Over all, my map looks like something out of Episode 3 now, but it should be much more fun to play now, while also looking better. Please let me know if I went too far in some places. I am still willing to make changes to the map.

 

Yeah that seems much better! although your map is still getting a VPO via PLN in this area:

 

Uploaded a 2nd shot since quitting the game covered up the player coord's..^

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[NieMaMordy]

3 hours ago, Mr.Rocket said:

although your map is still getting a VPO via PLN in this area:

Sorry about that, I feel like new VPO are just appearing out of nothing all the time :P
Should be fixed with this patch:
240kilo.zip 

[Mr.Rocket]

28 minutes ago, NieMaMordy said:

Sorry about that, I feel like new VPO are just appearing out of nothing all the time :P
Should be fixed with this patch:
240kilo.zip 

No worries, I think you might have got it, it seems stable around 121 PLN now. ;)

 

[Blast_Brothers]

Here's my feedback, based on running around in singleplayer with the difficulty set to "All Guns". I didn't cross-reference this with anyone else's feedback, so my apologies if there's any duplicate advice. Double apologies for the mostly negative tone- assume that I liked something if I didn't mention it.

 

GENERAL

• The SM64 music for the intermission is something I can't bring myself to hate. It's definitely weird, and the specific MIDI isn't the best-sounding, but it still fits in an eccentric sort of way. I can take or leave most of the other MIDI choices, with the exception of Live and Let Die- the slow start is just too unintentionally funny in this context, and the loop is pretty bad.
• Is it just me, or are there a lot of rooms that seem too dark for deathmatch across the whole WAD? It seems like every other level has at least one room that I can't imagine trying to spot other players in.
• Is there a chance the map author could be put in a smaller font under the map name on the intermission screen?

EPISODE 1

E1M1: You can get stuck behind the pillars in the north room. The lift flats around the courtyard are misaligned and the tree closest to the south wall looks like it clips into the wall.
E1M3: Too many doors, the tiny stairs leading out of the tan courtyard are visually questionable, and a whole ceiling of the circular red lights feels like a bit much.
E1M7: The lamp on a shelf looks odd with the way vanilla Doom layers sprites over level geometry.
E1M8: Thanks for using my textures!
E1M9: Not the hugest fan of switches where their effect isn't immediately obvious, but it might not be difficult to figure out in practice. I'm not sure on this one.
 

EPISODE 2

E2M2: Not sure how I feel about pentagram teleporter textures on non-teleporters.
E2M3: The passage through the broken wall needs to be wider on both ends, and the BFG is pretty easy to get. 
E2M5: The slow marble lift feels infuriatingly slow in a DM setting, especially when it isn't worth waiting for. Also, the way the scab wall lowers looks a bit messy since it isn't pegged to the ceiling.
E2M6: Having gray teleporters mark destinations makes sense after the first time, but still seems like it'd be too easy to forget in the heat of the moment; having two slow lifts, one for berserk and one for plasma, feels a bit odd considering how much more useful the latter is in most scenarios.
 

EPISODE 3

E3M1: Again, the ultra-steep stairs aren't doing it for me visually.
E3M4: The switch design treats the BFG and a medikit as equals? This map also aggressively uses red textures for the ceilings of non-red surfaces, which looks a little odd when there are better options available.
E3M8: The texturing on and around the lifts need work. I know you're trying to keep up the marble look of Dis, but I think the lift texture could stand to be integrated more organically. Also, being unable to stand on the step in front of the archvile faces is irritating.
E3M9: CRATOP moonlighting as a sand texture isn't doing it for me. I understand it's supposed to look like the surface is hard and tightly-packed, but there's just not enough detail for it to work. I'd replace it with FLAT5_5, MFLRT_1 (a custom flat that I think someone else added to TWANGO), or perhaps another custom texture.
 

EPISODE 4

E4M2: I can stand close to the marble pentagram face on the center pillar, but not on the other sides.
E4M5: The door to the exit switch should probably have an exit sign placed in front of it. I'd also remove the medikit from the exit room, as the room doesn't really feel like part of the arena proper anyway.
E4M6: BFG and Supercharge from one switch might be a little excessive.
E4M7: It's not immediately obvious what the north switch does. Perhaps put some of those white lights around the switch, maybe even having those lights lower too when the switch is pressed?
 

Also @OpenRift, I made some very slight changes to all 3 of my maps:

 

Blast_Brothers Minor Updates.zip

 

Finally, while I know my joke name for E3M2 was too long, I'd like the actual name to be "Slough II: TWANGO Tango". I think it'll just barely fit on one line.

[OpenRift]

On 12/18/2021 at 6:24 PM, NieMaMordy said:

 e1m3 - Too big for my taste, but good over all. I dislike the doors that have to be opened once. They appear redundant. Also, I hate the trend of placing items in the exit room, and this point applies to each map that does this.

Okay so, the once-open doors are meant to be a callback to deathmatch on base-game maps where you'd have to essentially "open up the map" as the match progresses. 

 

On 12/18/2021 at 6:24 PM, NieMaMordy said:

e3m1 - I would change the thin stairs to a regular ones in the cauldron area. They are very inconvenient to move on. Also, I would rework the mega armor room, 

The thin stairs are supposed to be ladders, actually. Do you mean the "stairs" on like, the lowest level of the pit? If so, then sure I can change those. My main concern with making them full-fat stairs is that they'll take up too much room. As for the mega armor room, yeah, you're right. I need to figure something out with that.

 

On 12/18/2021 at 6:24 PM, NieMaMordy said:

A note for #OpenRift . Please change the music order, and use more original MIDIs, rather than Metalica or other generic metal ones. Many of songs do not fit their level at all. Levels with mysterious layouts often use an energetic music, while the more fast paced ones use the overused metal songs, which makes them more boring than they are. Also, many of the MIDIs are either too loud or too silent.

You have to take into account the kind of soundtrack that DWANGO has, given that TWANGO emulates it somewhat: that being mostly MIDI covers of existing songs. Of course there's going to be metal tracks. I wanted to especially focus on that for Ultimate TWANGO because when you think about Doom 1 compared to Doom II, Doom 1 had a more metallic soundtrack than its sequel, which had more of that twelve-bar blues sound. As for an original soundtrack, again, not really TWANGO's style. That's more of an Execution DM thing (maybe we'll do an homage to that in a future TWANGO WAD, since I'd like to do themed DM WADs at some point lol, but that's a different story).

 

Now, reorganizing the MIDIs, sure, I'm not opposed to doing that. I just added MIDIs as I went, with a couple level-specific choices. 

[Redead-ITA]

5 hours ago, Blast_Brothers said:

Here's my feedback, based on running around in singleplayer with the difficulty set to "All Guns". I didn't cross-reference this with anyone else's feedback, so my apologies if there's any duplicate advice. Double apologies for the mostly negative tone- assume that I liked something if I didn't mention it.

 

E2M2: Not sure how I feel about pentagram teleporter textures on non-teleporters.

It is excused by the fact that the teleports in this do not use the gate flats.

[Blast_Brothers]

8 hours ago, OpenRift said:

Okay so, the once-open doors are meant to be a callback to deathmatch on base-game maps where you'd have to essentially "open up the map" as the match progresses. 

Would having the doors open when you got close to them be able to keep that feeling, in your opinion? I think that strikes a good balance between old and new. If you're generous enough with the activation radius, you might even be able to keep them as slow doors.

 

Quote

The thin stairs are supposed to be ladders, actually.

Ah, that makes sense. I think what threw me off is that they're so wide for ladders- maybe split each linedef so you can make the texture look thinner? I think if the "ladder" was about Doomguy's width it would be a lot more intuitive what it's supposed to be.

[Mr.Rocket]

Quote

E2M3: The passage through the broken wall needs to be wider on both ends, and the BFG is pretty easy to get.

 Noted, I'll have to widen those up a bit.

The BFG is rather easy to get but you're a sitting duck getting to it, and only 1 way in and out of the tele. ~ between entry and re-entry, you're basically trapped, So you're taking a risk going for it. ;) ~ pretty easy to get in single player though. :D 

 

Quote

E2M6: Having gray teleporters mark destinations makes sense after the first time, but still seems like it'd be too easy to forget in the heat of the moment; having two slow lifts, one for berserk and one for plasma, feels a bit odd considering how much more useful the latter is in most scenarios.

No problem, I can switch the silver teleport flats with the common red ones. ;)

The Berserk is considered a power up, 100% hp no matter what, that's why it's up there.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Pistoolkip]

Having played through a bunch of these maps with bots at UV, here are my findings: (v1_2)

 

These opinions are my own, and based on my personal experience and tastes. You can disagree if you like, but hopefully It's helpful in improving your map(s)!

 

 

E1M1

Obvious callback to E1M1, but not necessarily an upgrade for DM.

The map is too straight, with basically two long corridors and some sidepaths. The texture alignment is also horrible, especially of the lifts and support textures. Support 3 works best if the linedef is 24, not 32 long. This makes this map look cheap and not a great opener. 

Gameplay wise, the area in the east isn't very interesting, with little reason to go there, and a lift that slows down your movement.
The area on the west with the Rocket Launcher seems a bit tacked on, since it doesn't represent anything from the original. The hanger doesn't connect to the outside so isn't a hanger, and the courtyard is only a courtyard because the ceiling is missing. Why not make the south side a wall you can look over, like in the original? 
The northern hallway only has a single medkit and little reason to go there, and it also feels tacked on, because it doesn't connect to anything, just two rooms that are already connected. Maybe it should connect to the plasmagun room, which should be a little bigger?
Also, you can get stuck behind the two pillars in the plasmagun room, with no way to get out if jumping is disabled (which it generally is).
Good start, but needs a lot work. 

 

 

E1M2

Good size, good layout, great use of verticality

Solid texture work. Not too detailed but a very old school look.

Some of the item placement is weird, specially the soulsphere just sitting out in the open.

 

E1M3

Good visuals and theme, and good use of verticality and connecting rooms, but this map is too big.

There's also a lot of redundant items, including 2 plasma guns, 3 rocket launchers, and 2 berserks, making this map lack strategy and hotspots, if you can always get your hands on these items quickly.
I'd suggest: make the map smaller, and place less items.
 

 

E1M4

Missing

 

 

E1M5

Small map, but it works. It's symmetrical but not overly so. I don't have a lot of suggestions as this map is solid and feels finished, even if it's a bit underwhelming. 

 

 

E1M6

Another circle around a courtyard, kinda linear. Lacks detailing and texture work, though I do really like the column with the RL.

The RL feels like a high-ticket item on this map, while the plasmagun and BFG are much easier to get. The BFG is also very overpowered on this map, due to the open courtyard and corridors. Little chance to escape or flank.

 

E1M7

Solid map, good texturing and detailing, and interesting use of vertically. I especially like the soulsphere.

However, the inside area is a little too dark, and the outside area could use some retexturing. This texture is ugly when repeated vertically. 

 

E1M8

Good texturework and use of vertically in places, but this map feels very linear to play. There are two plasma guns sitting in the middle of rooms, plus a RL nearby, while the other rooms have nothing to offer outside a few stimpacks. Gameplay quickly turns into plasma spam at the plasma gun locations, with no reason to move to other rooms. 

 

 

E1M9

Another map with two highly accessible plasmaguns, meaning this map quickly turns into plasmaspam.

The layout is solid, and I like the spawn locations and 'secret' foxhole area. 

However, the foxhole and room with blinking white and orange lights are too dark.

The map has an old school layout and texturing, but also feels chaotic, with a lack of a clear theme. However, the map is surprisingly easy to navigate, which is a huge plus.

 

 

E2M1
Very cool BFG placement, interesting look and visuals. Still feels like a E2 map.

Cool layout too, but the bots didn't like it, so I'm looking forward to playtesting it with real players.

BTW, no plasmagun?

 

E2M2

Small and intense map, never got my hand of the trigger. Good texturing and detailing, but the map is confusing, since both sides are symmetrical, and it's unintuitive which teleporter goes to which side. Also, the RL is the primary ticket item on this map, but it's not a great map for rockets since it's so open.

Simultaneously, there is very little ammo around, meaning this is a map with little strategy and mostly just aimplay.

 

E2M3

Great improvements over the last version I playtested. Interesting remake of the original, with a nice backstage area and some high ticket items which you have to work and explore for, encouraging moving around the map. The plasmagun area is highly debatable. I would definitely change it if wasn't a homage. Perhaps it's better to have a different item there and move the plasma somewhere else?

 

E2M4

10/10

Excellent layout. Fantastic visuals. Each room its own unique look which makes navigation easier, while still having a overall theme to the map. The rooms blend well together, and there is a good variety in room sizes. Little verticality but that’s not a deal breaker.

BFG is a pain to get, but then that’s the point. Maybe it's a little too much and we could do with one less crusher.

The only thing I would really change is the Blue Armor in exit room. That's not where that should be placed.

 

E2M5

I have said little about the music thus far, but that means that either I liked the music, or tolerated it.

Not on this one. This is a terrible music choice. I love this song (favorite bond theme and Paul McCartney song), but it doesn't suit deathmatch play, is incredibly loud and distracting. 

The map itself is fine. The metal beams, grates and skins look good, and give it a Episode 4 look, but some walls are very barren and need more detailing.

The ways to get the plasma gun and BFG are kinda weird but I guess it works. Need to try this with human players.


E2M6
Layout and visuals are fine, but there are some weird choices here. Teleporters that don't work. A ceiling lamp with a generic grey texture. The soulsphere feels more like a secret. BFG button is in a weird place and not at all highlighted, making it feel like a secret. 
The elevated places are too high/steep, they would work better if they were a little lower.
A teleporter connecting to one spot, then the return teleporter connects to a spot right beside the first teleporter is kinda weird, why not just get back to the first?
Plasma gun is also in a weird place, and I didn't even find it until I opened the editor.
Secret backpack is super secret (only found it in the editor)
You also made a ton of detailing on the ceiling which I can't even see in game without mouselook. Lowering some of the ceilings / detailing wouldn't hinder gamplay but would increase the visuals. 
Just a couple of minor changes would really improve this map.


E2M7

This map looks like it was made in 2001, which is both a criticism and a compliment. It has a strong visual look, making it distinguishable form other maps in the set, but also stands out as not being a Doom I map. But that's up to taste, I guess.

It works. The layout it small but good, and very easy to navigate.
The exit teleporter having the same texture as one of the floor details is kinda weird. I also prefer the exit being a switch rather than a W1. 
The only thing I don't get is the plasmagun being a secret, with no BFG on the map either. I had to open the map to even find it. This should be a lot clearer. Also, the plasma gun area is boring and doesn't connect to the rest of the map, simply teleporting back out. Would be nicer if it was actually an elevated area you could spot.


E2M8
This map is gorgeous. It looks insane and has a clear unique look, while the area's are still easy to navigate. My only criticism of the visuals is that it looks more like an episode 3 map.

There is a bunch of a high ticket items on this map, which could lead to some interesting strategic gameplay. This is another map I need to test out with humans to get a better feel for it.
Though two full plasma packs next to the Plasma Gun (and BFG) is a little too much, will make getting there first such a huge advantage. My suggestion would be to make them plasma cells and put a cell charge pack at another location.

Having two ways to get the BFG is fine, though the running out the window probably easier than platforming. Not sure how I feel about the invulnerability being there, probably shouldn't be in a DM map. Invisibility is already broken enough. 


E2M9
First of all, what's with the weird anime nuns? (everyone asked that question so me too).
The overal layout is interesting and intricate. But I don't like the cycling teleporters, because they're not intuitive. I feel teleporters should be one-way, or two-way, but not cycling cause you don't know where you'll end up, and promotes reentereing the same teleporter over and over to get where you want to go. That said, I only ever wanted to teleport to one spot: the one with the plasma cells. I'm not sure how you get the BFG from there, but it worked some of the time. The plasma gun is in a weird spot, and too difficult to get IMHO.

That said, I really liked the placement of some of the items on ledges, great DM tricks and promotes moving around the map. The map had a variety of locations with good connectivity and a clear look. 

However, one thing I feel should immediately change is the soulsphere in the exit. Maybe put that on the lowering pillar instead of the plasma, and put the plasma somewhere else? Maybe at one of the two green armor spots instead?





E3M1
A bit fire pit with pillars in the centre. interesting idea, but could use more detailing and variety in the layout. Too much of the same red rock texture. Also, cage textures look better if they end on a pillar, so you can't see how flat they are. I'm not a fan of the ladders either, maybe add some more variety in the sector heights and give players stairs to walk out one? The cave is also kinda flat and uses the same texture at the outside area.



E3M2
Very nice looking automap, and a great homage to the original! the map itself is kinda fugly though, and could use more detailing and better texture work. I especially don't like the low ceiling with all the corpses. Access to the BFG (or megarmor) is rough but doable with straferunning. The map is very open which makes some weapons akward to use, but it also means that the BFG isn't king. Interested to see how this plays. 

 

 

E3M3
Missing


E3M4
Great visuals and an interesting motiff, but the gameplay is kinda boring. There's only two area's really: the courtyard with the plasma, and the BFG room with the RLs on the sides. The hallways feel kinda redundant, and there's no reason to go there but to get some stuff. The map is also very symmetrical. Take a look at some classic DM maps for inspiration on layouts, then change the layout of the map and apply your awesome detailing and theme.

 

E3M5

What's this, another E1M1 remake, but with episode 3 visuals? That's a lot of red and green bricks! The map looks and plays fine. I like how open and connected it is, with rooms of different sizes and good item placement. My only real criticism is that the wall on the outside early looks flat, especially because it's not straight, so you can see the main building doesn't have a side. Otherwise, good DM map!
 

 

E3M6

A great homage to Mt Erebus. Open, but not too big, and easy to navigate. The detailing is fine - i know how difficult it is to detail an open map like this without visplane issues. 
BFG is kinda in a weird place. You can pick it up but it's not consistent. 

Bots hate this map, they keep exiting it. Replacing the exit with a button would fix that issue. They also keep getting stuck in places, so I guess this map just isn't bot friendly. But I like it.


E3M7

Solid map, but a little too dark, could use some more contrast it lighting. You have the lights and open area's, but even these feel dark.
Also, everything seems a little wider than it needs to be, especially the long wide stairs. The map could be a little more compact. But good texturing and gameplay.
 

 

E3M8
Speaking of maps which are too wide, this one is clearly too big. Also, both halves are identical, with the 'secret' areas on both sides being symmetrical as well, meaning there are two mega armors sitting right next to soulspheres. 1vs1, this map could go on indefinitely.

 

I'm also not a huge fan of everything sitting on pillars and lifts, as it slows down the gameplay. The two pillars with boxes of rockets at the BFG need different floor textures, so they are easier to stand on.

 

I can see you're inspired by the real E3M8, but that is much smalller, and has better visuals. I dislike the green on green marble here. Maybe use some of the awesome skintech textures the real E3M8 used?

 

E3M9
Metallica midi? Cactus? Western setting? This map looks like it was made in 1996, and for an oldschool deathmatch map, that's a compliment. This map is fun and open, and the visuals - if a little dated - work for what you're trying to do.
Not a fan of the (non-BFG) teleporters. They cycle, and I don't feel like they add much to the map. The map also suffers a little from a sparsity of items.
Not a fan of the fireblue at the BFG, and you can add more visual details if you have the time / visplane room, but overall, very fun and unique map. 

 

E4M1
Small intense map, with great Thy Flesh Consumed visuals, and some very interesting texturing. I love the use of skin textures in this one, and obviously the radioactive falls. Gameplay wise, it's okay, with interesting teleporters and a lot of rocket play. The gameplay gets a little tired after a while, but because the map is small, it's also quick, so overall that's not a dealbreaker. Great opener to episode 4!

 

 

E4M2
Great remake of the original E4M2. You probably made this in more than 6 hours!
Visually this map is great, and I like the use of verticality and platforms here. Good interconnectivity, too.
The bots don't, so I can't really playtest this all that well.
The map feels a little too big, but that could just be me. I dislike the random teleporters everywhere, since they're not connected and it's not always clear where they go and why.
The rocket launcher is also in a weird spot, one you can easily miss. I would also implore you to remove the two stumps at the rocket launcher, (and maybe in some other places), as this is a terrible place to be blocked at. 
Some ammo is in weird places, but I guess that's up to testing with actual players. 


E4M3
This map is mine, so no feedback. I'm considering some changes based on the feedback given.


E4M4
I love it when mappers take inspiration in the visuals and theme of the original, but don't try to mimmick it's layout. That said, this map is solid but also a little bland. It feels very 'by the book'. It plays well, looks fine, but is overall forgettable. 
Bots also hate it, and keep exiting it. Changing the exit to a switch prevents this from happening.


E4M5
I think I playtested an early version of this? Anyway, this map looks awesome - as many of these episode 4 maps do. Interesting use of teleporters and verticality too. This map almost has too much verticality. It could maybe be a little flatter? 
I don't understand why the plasmagun is hidden away in a closet with no indication where it is. Once again, it feels like a secret, while it should be an intricate part of the map. Maybe put it on top of the elevated platform, where the rockets are currently sitting?

The added textures are great though, and really add something to the map without distracting from the overall episode 4 aesthetics. 

Visually, the south corridor is a little bland when compared to the rest of the map. I'm also not a fan of the Big Door textures as walls, and you could use some support textures, as marble and Gstone don't connect well. in particular in this spot:

Spoiler

E4M6
Another small, intense map. But this one has a lot of goodies. Need to try this one with players to see if it's too cramped. Every rooms seems to have a purpose, at least, and there's no bland corridors.
The Midi is way too loud though. 
The teleporters are weird, too. Why do these statues teleport you? Feels kinda random and unintuitive. 
Overall, solid and quick map.
 

 

E4M7

Another one of mine. Also the outdated version. More changes will come soon.


E4M8

WHY IS THIS MIDI SO LOUD
* ahum*

This map is too pretty. Man with Gun is making us look bad by comparison.
That said, I've talked in length about this map before. While the visuals are amazing, the gameplay is not. The map is too big, too complex, and too confusing. I've played this map about 5 times and I still have no idea where I'm going or how I got there. The cycling teleporters also don't help. I think he might have made some changes after my previous feedback, but I'm not completely sure.
Needing to hit 5 sequential buttons to get the BFG also feels a bit too much.

 

E4M9
This map is pure bloodlust and BFG spam. The BFG is very easy accessible and safe to get, just hop in the teleporter and grab it. The plasmagun is also just sitting there. The RL almost seems to be the most risky weapon to get.

The style of the map works, and the visuals and detailing suit the map. I'm not sure what the purpose of the double-teleporter is, as it doesn't really seem to go anywhere. 

Will be interesting to see how this plays with players, but my guess it's mostly BFG spam. The map is small and quick to be sure. 

 

 

 

That's all folks!

Edited December 21, 2021 by Pistoolkip

[Mr.Rocket]

I have a better idea, actually, than what's going on right now where random authors are scrutinizing each others maps?

~ considering, there's been 3 authors pop in and say completely different things about the same maps, so far..

Really though, I; I don't really know what's going on here, I mean, is each author going to come in and post about each individual map?

I don't think I've ever seen this sort of thing start to happen, so hopefully we can put a stop to it before it goes on any farther. 

 

I know I had a lot of fun making the maps I made, and I'm sure everyone else did too, but I don't think we signed up to have all our maps picked at, lol. in fact I know we didn't.. that would just be lame.. heh. That, and I don't want others to be discouraged on the fact that some authors have already spent some time going through the levels and posting up their comments and or critique. I understand that, but still.. that's not what this is about.. That said, I really don't expect this sort of thing to go on through the holidays. I know I don't want to go through Christmas and New years and everyone bitch about everyone's fucking level. lol :D 

 

Instead, how about an actual DM play test(s), instead of just running around in random maps in single player and then going by assumption.

I mean since the maps afaik are all good as far as VPO (which just means we're good in vanilla atm), why not host that damn thing with a password on Zandro so we can all play test the Mega, and go from there? :P

 

Good idea, huh? :D 

 

I haven't DM'd for awhile, but I'm pretty sure I still have it.

~ in other words, prepare to die. :P j/k we'll see, if you have the ballz.

 

That said, @OpenRift , host this bitch up! ;)

 

 

----

Maybe there should be some certain rules, maybe first time playing on such n such date, it's totaly a look around, map to map, map to exit and talk about each map during its walk through.. Then next time on said new date, we actually try an jump in and play the mega. just so we can all be on the same page, etc.

 

What do you think?

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Dusty_Rhodes]

Completely agree @Mr.Rocket

 

I have to say I think Doomkid's criticism of E1M1 was fair, but I think when it comes to gameplay, my map holds up very well. I suppose I could change some textures, and I definitely missed some alignment issues, but I'm really happy with it. It sucks seeing kind of invalid criticism on a map I just whipped up quickly and for fun.

 

And on E4M6, that was co authored, and I don't remember putting that megasphere there, so something was missed in the time Magic Sofa worked on it. Nothing against him at, in fact I'm really happy he helped and he's awesome lol. It's just a mix up that has been pointed out a bunch of times now, I'll try and fix my map's issues this weekend. 

 

 

Anyway, yeah let's test this in Zandronum or Skulltag or something. 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

@Pistoolkip I appreciate the feedback. The teleporters were inspired by Sigil. Romero does the same thing with the statues. I can change if need be. The map used to VPO pretty hard because if how I had the islands originally. After the changes the teleporters aren't as necessary as they used to be. I still think they're fun though. *shrug*

[Doomkid]

For whatever it's worth, I post my maps actively hoping for people to give feedback and criticism. DM mapping is different than SP mapping in that the maps literally have to have appeal to a broader audience, or else the wad is being made "for no one", so to speak.

 

I just gave my honest thoughts on maps, no attempt to put anyone else down or insult anyone's work. I don't see the point in shipping the wad out with flaws, and I don't think we should take criticisms of maps and pointing out issues personally (I don't think it's ever meant that way). If anything in my maps even stands out as "might be an issue", I really do want very much to hear about it and make the map better.

 

Wouldn't it be way worse if we just patted eachother on the backs and pretended the maps had no flaws? I don't think that's ideal, I think the best way to run a deathmatch project is to scrutinize the maps down to the gnat's ass (while remembering to be nice and a non-asshole of course).

 

It's not my project, but I'm just throwing this out there, it may be valuable for consideration. Are we going for a quality set overall, or just sort of speedmapping for fun and making whatever, and saying "issues be damned, we'll make more maps in future anyway"?

 

Not criticizing either approach, I think both are totally valid, I just want to be clear about the "aims" of the project. Considering the DWANGO inspiration is in the mix somewhere, it could reasonably go either way, far as I'm concerned.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

@Doomkid those are very good points. I really shouldn't take it personally, but playing with bots I found E1M1 very fun. Though I am absolutely biased, since it's my map. E4M6 criticism feels more fair, I think the balance can be tweaked a lot, so I plan on doing so. And I hope I'm not coming off as butthurt, but I think (texture alignment aside) E1M1 is quite good. I've played a lot of DM, but this is my first map for the game mode, so maybe I made some mistakes. However I don't see much that needs changing.

 

The outdoor area has minor height variation that really affects projectile weapons (in a good way, imo it takes more skill to fight in an area like that) and a power item to fight over. The plasma room forces you to choose if it's worth going into a vulnerable area for a good gun. The open hallway area makes it fun to dodge rockets. The item placement is fair and no area or strategy is overpowered. There are no doors and lifts are fast and go down automatically, so you don't lose momentum, etc.

 

Other than the area where you can get stuck and some minor texture issues, I think I did well. Sorry I let the criticism get to my head. I will fix what I consider problems, but I want to heavily play test to see if the layout needs tweaking. Like you, I do want to improve my maps as much as possible, I just felt this one was being unfairly attacked. 

[Mr.Rocket]

Now to be clear, I totally understand about the critique etc. I'm just trying to put a stop to it before every author comes out of the wood work about every fucking level and says something different about them. lol

I think it would be easier to just have a play test where we could all be in game and talk about each level then and there, because as I've said, we have already 3-4? different authors saying different things about some of the same levels. And, If we have a close meeting point, with an actual in-game visual that way, I'm sure it would help.

Instead of flooding the threads with eveyones take on what they thought about eveyones level in particular. ya know?

 

And really, I shouldn't even have to be making this post.. :\

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Decay]

19 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Wouldn't it be way worse if we just patted eachother on the backs and pretended the maps had no flaws? I don't think that's ideal, I think the best way to run a deathmatch project is to scrutinize the maps down to the gnat's ass (while remembering to be nice and a non-asshole of course).

 

It's not my project, but I'm just throwing this out there, it may be valuable for consideration. Are we going for a quality set overall, or just sort of speedmapping for fun and making whatever, and saying "issues be damned, we'll make more maps in future anyway"?

Constructive criticism for twango didn't work the first time, why would it work now?

[Mr.Rocket]

Quote

Constructive criticism for twango didn't work the first time, why would it work now?

I would assume, to answer your question. Isn't this a totally different flock of people in this project than the previous one?

[Dusty_Rhodes]

1 minute ago, Mr.Rocket said:

I would assume, to answer your question. Isn't this a totally different flock of people in this project than the previous one?

I think it's a pessimistic outlook to say constructive criticism is bad. Especially, as you point out, this is a different group of people. Constructive criticism does work and is very helpful.

[OpenRift]

9 minutes ago, Decay said:

Constructive criticism for twango didn't work the first time, why would it work now?

What would you know about being constructive? If you're gonna come by just to be a snarky asswipe, then you have absolutely no place to talk about constructive criticism. If you're still salty because I put you on the spot last time, either grow a pair and contribute or get out of the thread. 

[Mr.Rocket]

Quote

I think it's a pessimistic outlook to say constructive criticism is bad. Especially, as you point out, this is a different group of people. Constructive criticism does work and is very helpful.

 

Indeed, nothing wrong with criticism. 

The point of my post a few hours back is that I don't want every author to come out and say something (at that, different) about every map in the mega. lol It could get really freak'n lame.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Decay]

6 minutes ago, Mr.Rocket said:

I would assume, to answer your question. Isn't this a totally different flock of people in this project than the previous one?

Is it really though? Nobody plays the first TWANGO (which was donated a ton of maps, saving you a lot of work) for a reason, and that's because some people either can't or won't put their ego aside when reasonable criticism is levied. It's just sad to see new and enthusiastic content get shelved because not enough time or care was taken to address multiple points of view.

 

2 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

What would you know about being constructive? If you're gonna come by just to be a snarky asswipe, then you have absolutely no place to talk about constructive criticism. If you're still salty because I put you on the spot last time, either grow a pair and contribute or get out of the thread. 

Stay as mad as you want (that /j in your self title is hiding the tears), but there was absolutely valid criticisms in the previous project, you simply choose to strive for mediocrity at best, and this attitude is passed onto the other mappers when there is a refusal to address effort being put in for serious feedback.

[Mr.Rocket]

Quote

Is it really though? Nobody plays..

What wait... ? what.. you're going to come in this thread and bitch about something you don't like because it's stealing your spot light? 

Is that what it is?  As I said before.. Bye! ~ apparently you seem to have more of a problem than any project.. 

Oh and the biggest problem with this project right now, IS YOU. :D 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[Arrowhead]

9 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

What would you know about being constructive?

I personally think Decay knows a lot about being constructive - I just gotta say, if it wasn't for his help w/ my last DM project, it would have been an awful mess. He gave me pages and pages of constructive criticism - on his own free time.

 

Everyone's personality on Earth is different - you have to just be willing to see that people aren't trying to do you harm w/ their feedback, but instead help you.

 

 

[Mr.Rocket]

Quote

I personally think Decay knows a lot about being constructive

So ah, is his first post in this topic being constructive?

[OpenRift]

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Is it really though? Nobody plays the first TWANGO (which was donated a ton of maps, saving you a lot of work) for a reason, and that's because some people either can't or won't put their ego aside when reasonable criticism is levied. It's just sad to see new and enthusiastic content get shelved because not enough time or care was taken to address multiple points of view.

 

Stay as mad as you want (that /j in your self title is hiding the tears), but there was absolutely valid criticisms in the previous project, you simply choose to strive for mediocrity at best, and this attitude is passed onto the other mappers when there is a refusal to address effort being put in for serious feedback.

I think it's clear you've developed a superiority complex because of your work on Bourgeois DM (congrats on the Cacoward mention regardless btw), and that you have a problem with me standing in the way of your power trip. BourgDM is a good WAD, yes. I enjoy it a lot. That doesn't make you better at giving criticism. I don't think you've even played TWANGO1 in its complete form either because you probably still have a pathetic little vendetta against me.

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Stay as mad as you want (that /j in your self title is hiding the tears)

 

(Mod note: Image removed, no memes)

[Mr.Rocket]

Either way, we're trying to be constructive. And I'm trying to lever the fact there's too much constructive criticism going on between most authors, so I figured the best thing we could do is go in game and point out issues there so we wouldn't booger up the topic, basically trying to clean some things up.. But look what happened lol..

Edited December 22, 2021 by Mr.Rocket

[OpenRift]

1 hour ago, Arrowhead said:

I personally think Decay knows a lot about being constructive - I just gotta say, if it wasn't for his help w/ my last DM project, it would have been an awful mess. He gave me pages and pages of constructive criticism - on his own free time.

 

Everyone's personality on Earth is different - you have to just be willing to see that people aren't trying to do you harm w/ their feedback, but instead help you.

The problem that he has is that there's a nugget of criticism surrounded by a wall of just pessimistic nonsense that frankly does nothing for anybody except dampen their outlook on the craft as a whole. I have absolutely no problem taking constructive criticism, but it's clear that compared to like pretty much anyone else in this thread who's been giving feedback, he's definitely not great at it.

 

But anyways, I digress, let's stop this before it completely devolves into an argument.

[Mr.Rocket]

Agreed.. Anyways, back to what I was saying. I still think it's a good idea to have a play test as a visual and then as an actual DM, with date and times, you know so we can all go through it and test it out of course and actually have a feel of how things might play out before any new public announcement.

Which I know you do already, but I mean with the authors, if they can make it. you know what I'm say'n, if possible anyway.

[Doomkid]

I think a playtesting session is fine, but I for one welcome all and any feedback from mappers and non mappers alike. Frankly I think actively trying to “shut down” any future people who give feedback on all/any maps is really, REALLY counter productive.

 

Putting a sign up that says “if you plan to leave feedback on all the maps, just cram it instead” guarantees thus project won’t reach a reasonable fraction of its potential..

[OpenRift]

1 hour ago, Mr.Rocket said:

Agreed.. Anyways, back to what I was saying. I still think it's a good idea to have a play test as a visual and then as an actual DM, with date and times, you know so we can all go through it and test it out of course and actually have a feel of how things might play out before any new public announcement.

 Which I know you do already, but I mean with the authors, if they can make it. you know what I'm say'n, if possible anyway.

Well, we did actually do a playtest on Doom's birthday in my Discord, and most of the maps played out pretty well. Any of the ones that didn't were taken out. I'm not opposed to doing a beta test on ZDaemon or something like that, I think I know somebody that could set up a server for us.