Adding more options to the GZDoom Welcome Menu...

[RetroAkaMe]

Now that I think about it... Why don't we all use a launcher instead of a welcome screen? I'm thinking of making a launcher where you can organize easily your IWADS and ports, you install the things, copy the wads, and you can play the game. To me, it's enough. But I recommend Doom Launcher. It's very good

[Graf Zahl]

The launcher would have to be bundled with the port to make casual users use them, which brings us back to the size inflation issue.

[Redneckerz]

44 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

The launcher would have to be bundled with the port to make casual users use them, which brings us back to the size inflation issue.

If most launchers add bloat, then this should be verified. According to GitHub alone there are 106 Doom Launcher programs and there is twad: (Linux/Windows)

 

 

1 out of 100+ ought to cover everyone's base here, being lightweight, minimalistic, userfriendly, looking good.

 

Maybe Mini Doom Launcher? The zip file for that is 21 kilobytes.

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Redneckerz

[Graf Zahl]

Before posting stuff, please check what these programs actually do.

Mini Doom Launcher is written in C#, and twad in Go, so both ultimately fail the minimum requirements of what I need.

 

[Redneckerz]

18 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Before posting stuff, please check what these programs actually do.

What they say on the tin, and are either minimalistic or small in size.

18 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Mini Doom Launcher is written in C#, and twad in Go, so both ultimately fail the minimum requirements of what I need.

And what do you need? Because if you did ask prior for a Welcome Screen alternative, how far did you reach? Only the ZD forums?

 

What i see are 100+ authors with 100+ launchers. If none fit your bill, then perhaps they would want to help.

 

Before shooting down my suggestion, make an assessment on those launchers listed. 

[Graf Zahl]

I need something that can be cleanly integrated into GZDoom. That means a) full cross-platform capability and b) they must be written in a language I feel comfortable with because I'd need to add some modifications fo integrate them directly into GZDoom's package. And Go isn't that.

That Mini launcher is just a little bit too minimalistic for what I need.

 

 

[Some1NamedNate]

The Welcome window needs a PWAD selector! Like PrBoom+'s, we can (Ctrl+)Click on PWADs for GZDoom to load.

[Dragonfly]

Use a launcher for that.

[Graf Zahl]

8 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

What they say on the tin, and are either minimalistic or small in size.

And what do you need? Because if you did ask prior for a Welcome Screen alternative, how far did you reach? Only the ZD forums?

 

What i see are 100+ authors with 100+ launchers. If none fit your bill, then perhaps they would want to help.

 

Before shooting down my suggestion, make an assessment on those launchers listed. 

 

Of those 106 projects, probably half is search noise, many are ancient and the vast majority of the rest being based on languages that require installation of external packages on some systems. Others are platform specific or useless in other ways.

Where all of them seem to fail is IWAD detection, so this would have to be added before making it usable - and this limits the choices to those written in C++ or as a last resort C, because all code I have for this is written in C++.

 

 

[ketmar]

and, btw, how many of them supports at least GNU/Linux, windows and macosx without relying on some gigantic framework? because that was the original request…

[Graf Zahl]

None! Those which do mainly use Qt.

I have come to believe that the only viable GUI library for a task ike this is Dear IMGui, but since this window needs to run before OpenGL or Vulkan start up it has to be backed by a software renderer that works on all 3 platforms - and that's where things get tricky again...

 

 

[ketmar]

i'm still proposing to take a look at FLTK. as you already ready ;-) to give up on "native controls look" with IMGui — you can as well create a custom FLTK style.

Edited September 14, 2021 by ketmar

[Gibbon]

2 hours ago, ketmar said:

and, btw, how many of them supports at least GNU/Linux, windows and macosx without relying on some gigantic framework? because that was the original request…

 

It would also need support for M1 Macs as well as Intel Macs.

[ketmar]

i'm not even sure that GZDoom can be compiled and run on M1. but anyway, FLTK is a very simple C++, without template tricks, asm, and other unnecessary magic. i'm pretty sure that it could work on almost anything (there is even Android backend for 1.4 dev version, afaik).

[Gibbon]

3 minutes ago, ketmar said:

i'm not even sure that GZDoom can be compiled and run on M1. but anyway, FLTK is a very simple C++, without template tricks, asm, and other unnecessary magic. i'm pretty sure that it could work on almost anything (there is even Android backend for 1.4 dev version, afaik).

It can, I already did it :)

 

Sounds like a good candidate though.  There are not many GUI libs out there that are multiplat, small, in C/C++ and with minimal dependencies.

[Redneckerz]

12 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

That Mini launcher is just a little bit too minimalistic for what I need.

Would it be an impossibility to either have you (or me) contact the dev and see what can be done, such as a port to C++, or would you rather prefer that, now that there is discussion on it, do another enquiry for a possible Welcome Screen replacement?

 

Since you said you did ask before and got no responses, it is likely that request wasn't broad enough.

3 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Of those 106 projects, probably half is search noise, many are ancient and the vast majority of the rest being based on languages that require installation of external packages on some systems.

Here i was thinking you spent up all night to actually research those 106 projects (Some are related to Doom Eternal instead, but hey) but what i read here is:

• ''Probably half is search noise''
• ''Many are ancient''
• ''The vast majority of the rest being based on languages that require installation of external packages on some system''
• ''Others are platform specific''
• ''Or useless in other ways''
• ''Those who do mainly use QT''

That does not strike me as a convincing search enquiry but rather employing a rule-of-thumb methodology of deduction.

 

Since my suggestions were met with disagreement safe for Mini Doom Launcher for the most part, i'd love to know: What specific launchers out of that list have had the most positive features for you?

 

3 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Where all of them seem to fail is IWAD detection, so this would have to be added before making it usable - and this limits the choices to those written in C++ or as a last resort C, because all code I have for this is written in C++.

So because you use Language A and through deduction have concluded that all launchers fail to have Feature A and aren't written for Language A, the situation becomes exceptionally dyre? That's quite.. cynical.

 

3 hours ago, ketmar said:

and, btw, how many of them supports at least GNU/Linux, windows and macosx without relying on some gigantic framework? because that was the original request…

You would have to go into specifics. Somehow i doubt every single one of those launchers is completely unusuable - There has to be some common ground. And if there isn't, then there are still other options.

 

52 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

It can, I already did it :)

 

Sounds like a good candidate though.  There are not many GUI libs out there that are multiplat, small, in C/C++ and with minimal dependencies.

You can be rest assured that Graf has looked in each and every one of these as his posts seem to imply, and found none that would befit his exact desires.

 

Maybe he could reach out to say the Mini Doom Launcher dev and work on a derivative since that one atleast got quite a few things right but was only ''A little too minimalistic''.

 

Reading his responses back to back, it would seem that a C++ port of that launcher with a few Q-o-L features ticks most of the boxes.

[Gez]

53 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Here i was thinking you spent up all night to actually research those 106 projects

Dunno why you're being so adversarial, but have you thought that perhaps Graf didn't want to spend all night on sifting through various things to find out if one could perchance be refitted to fulfill a very low-priority feature?

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Dunno why you're being so adversarial,

I was being facetious and mildly sarcastic. Graf's posts implied he actually went the distance and researched it all.

 

It may strike as a compliment that i consider Graf able to do this.

1 hour ago, Gez said:

but have you thought that perhaps Graf didn't want to spend all night on sifting through various things to find out if one could perchance be refitted to fulfill a very low-priority feature?

Realistically, obviously. But he has spoken of a prior call for help and got nothing. I can't find anything of it so far, so henceforth i suggested a more broader call for help or a possible cooperation with one of these developers.

 

Atleast one befitted some of his demands, but it may require either a retooling or the aforementioned cooperation.

 

If Graf somehow expected a complete made-for GZ drop-in solution, that would be another story.

[Graf Zahl]

It was you who brought up the list. Over the last few years I actually have checked several launchers, but none made the cut to serve as a working base for various reasons.

 

[Redneckerz]

41 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

It was you who brought up the list.

Exactly since you made the general assumption that none were good enough. I doubted you researched everything and thus gave fitting examples for your cause.

41 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Over the last few years I actually have checked several launchers, but none made the cut to serve as a working base for various reasons.

Ill ask again: What specific launchers out of that list have had the most positive features for you?

 

Also, would it be worthwhile to ask the MDL Dev? Ill gladly do since you seemed generally okay with that sans the few obvious outliers.

[dpJudas]

No offense meant, but asking a developer to research 100 launchers on his own isn't really helping. You might as well have written "have you tried using google to see if there's a solution out there?". And then when he writes back that he did try to google for a solution, you now double down by effectively saying "I don't think you tried all the pages returned - there might still be a page out there with the solution!"

[Astronomical]

 

29 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

No offense meant, but asking a developer to research 100 launchers on his own isn't really helping. You might as well have written "have you tried using google to see if there's a solution out there?". And then when he writes back that he did try to google for a solution, you now double down by effectively saying "I don't think you tried all the pages returned - there might still be a page out there with the solution!"

The second page of google contains all of the answers.  Jokes aside does anyone actually need a launcher specifically for gzdoom?  Because unless you are loading 20 mods that (unless ordered in the exact way you have them listed) will cause the game to crash, you should be able to get away with dragging and dropping.  The types of people who do that also tend to know how to use ZDL and don't need an integrated launcher.  Alternatively if you have multiple source ports installed, a launcher integrated with gzdoom isn't going to help you.  I have gotten away without one for most of my time playing doom, I used zdl for a bit but I ultimately found I didn't need it.  

[RetroAkaMe]

17 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

If most launchers add bloat, then this should be verified. According to GitHub alone there are 106 Doom Launcher programs and there is twad: (Linux/Windows)

 

 

1 out of 100+ ought to cover everyone's base here, being lightweight, minimalistic, userfriendly, looking good.

 

Maybe Mini Doom Launcher? The zip file for that is 21 kilobytes.

 

These both two are very good. I might try it now that I'm here but I'm gonna look at the GitHub list

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, dpJudas said:

No offense meant, but asking a developer to research 100 launchers on his own isn't really helping.

Neither is saying Before posting stuff, please check what these programs actually do. Mini Doom Launcher is written in C#, and twad in Go, so both ultimately fail the minimum requirements of what I need. before saying that MDL actually is pretty alright, just too minimized.

 

I have given examples of launchers. And if he were to ask me to look at those 100 launchers, i would have.

 

Obviously i am not expecting Graf to do anything, but if you are going to mention that you did your research and everything failed, then i'd like to know specifics.

1 hour ago, dpJudas said:

You might as well have written "have you tried using google to see if there's a solution out there?". And then when he writes back that he did try to google for a solution, you now double down by effectively saying "I don't think you tried all the pages returned - there might still be a page out there with the solution!" 

I might aswell have, but as you can tell i didn't since that wouldn't help.

[Gibbon]

Seems at this point it is easier to keep the platform specific startup screen and just say "if you want more, use a third party one".

[RetroAkaMe]

10 hours ago, Gibbon said:

Seems at this point it is easier to keep the platform specific startup screen and just say "if you want more, use a third party one".

Agreed.

[ketmar]

11 hours ago, Gibbon said:

Seems at this point it is easier to keep the platform specific startup screen and just say "if you want more, use a third party one".

i really hoped to convince Graf to use FLTK, so GZDoom won't link to GTK+ anymore… ;-)

[Gibbon]

31 minutes ago, ketmar said:

i really hoped to convince Graf to use FLTK, so GZDoom won't link to GTK+ anymore… ;-)

One thing I hate about Linux is the lack of a standardised embedded GUI framework.  If it had something like Win32 at the kernel level, that would be beautiful.

 

We can keep dreaming..

[Graf Zahl]

I've been saying that for years. It's an instant turn-off for making Linux a viable desktop system that can compete with Windows or Mac.

 

[Kinsie]

The GZDoom startup window is A Problem for a number of reasons. As previously mentioned, it's a different implementation for each platform, making maintenance a pain in the ass, while also ensuring that some features (like the unique Startup sequences used by Heretic, Hexen, Strife, and whichever mods/standalone games reskin those) end up being Windows-only. This also results in some other hassles, like the Hexen startup sequence insisting on using Hexen's weird old limited-colour planar image format that doesn't have any good tools for it instead of the PNG files used by every other part of the engine.

 

Realistically, of course, uniting all those houses is far from trivial, and the only idea I've been able to come up with was "Uhh, is using Dear Imgui possible? 🤷‍♂️". Which it might be, but it sounds like it'd be a real pain in the butt to do things that way for reasons I'm not smart enough to explain here.