What are the holes in doom 2’s monster roster and how could we fill them?

[Jacek Bourne]

There are holes in doom 2’s monster roster. This thread is so we can identify and come up with custom monsters that could fill these roles.

[Naarok0fkor]

Here's a few things...

-Small & flying demon. Heretic's imp fills the role nicely.

-Although a lot of demons can attack you in mêlée, there`s only pinkies & lost souls to charge at you. Something medium & moderately fast would do well, maybe with the skullattack. I always thought that the flaming skulls were a bit too tough. Numerous, small & flying demons are great to shoot at. 

-Something big that slowly shoots rockets or plasma shots, like a tank. The cacodemon & spiderboss already fill that role, but they can frag players too easily.

-A plasma wielding zombie.

-I tried to give the archvile`s raise dead ability to the hell knights & barons. There was a graphic glitch, but the ability worked. Having a second demon that can emulate the archvile would be a good option, just like having autoshotgunbabyspiders. 

-Fighting more robotic ennemies can be good, just like fighting xenomorphs.

[MemeMind]

I always would like to see a stationary turret enemy for doom, either a haywire UAC turret or some sort of hell turret.

[Captain Ventris]

My brain skipped the word roster, so I thought this was going to be a very different kind of thread.

[Marisa the Magician]

23 minutes ago, Captain Ventris said:

My brain skipped the word roster, so I thought this was going to be a very different kind of thread.

You and me both...

[Nikku4211]

We need a rabbit like Daisy...

 

So how about a CyberDaisy or Cyberrabbit that shoots an explosive fireball with blast damage?

[HAK3180]

1. I think the monster I want most frequently that isn't actually there is basically a buffed imp / weakened hell knight. Cacodemons fly and are too big and still slightly too much HP. Revenants are small enough and have the right HP, but their attacks are too powerful, as are the hell knights'.
2. I agree that a weaker flyer with a projectile could definitely have a role, e.g. flying imps.
3. I think the custom suicide bomber that you see in a a lot of wads definitely has a clear function that you don't see in the vanilla roster: easy to kill, but do not get close. It's like a moving barrel.
4. Nazis are solid enemies in the human hierarchy. Unfortunately, they're nazis, but they would often be a great sweeping replacement for commandos going from Ultra-Violence to Hurt Me Plenty, for example. Sergeants are not totally comparable, and former humans are just so much weaker.
5. Something shorter and/or something skinnier than Doomguy. You can manipulate geometry so that some monsters are too tall / wide, but not so that Doomguy is. Obviously, you can modify this stuff if you want, but these are things that could have added another dynamic, I think.
6. Arch-viles and demons are unique in that they are totally harmless from a certain distance. It might be cool if another monster had that same effect, but with a much greater range than melee only but much less than 1024 units, like a flamethrower or earthquaker or something, some sort of attack that you can totally ignore outside the range. Imps from long distance are often not much threat, but you still have to dodge that fire eventually.  
7. I also agree that some sort of immobile monster might be good. Raised/lowered platforms and block lines and stuff can work, but these setups often have to be less elegant than ideal.

Just throwing out some ideas. The only ones whose absence I ever truly get close to lamenting are 1 and 4.

[Naarok0fkor]

2 hours ago, Theperson said:

I always would like to see a stationary turret enemy for doom, either a haywire UAC turret or some sort of hell turret.

There's always the tank turret in Brutal doom in a quick fix... 

[Naarok0fkor]

Something as big as hell knight with a gatling...

Rocket mancubuses...

Is there an editor that can add monsters & other things easily?

 

[Gez]

Doom II is dreadfully lacking in Segway zombies.

 

 

More seriously, are you talking about filling missing niches on the thematic or on the mechanic level? By those terms I mean that thematic niches are from an "in-universe" viewpoint, like additional types of demons and possessed that seem like they should exist in the world of Doom, while mechanic niches just focus on the raw gameplay element. E.g., thematically, the cyberdemon is a fierce giant demon warlord enhanced with cyber technologies; mechanically it's an imp with a lot more hit points, a bigger collision box, and projectiles that inflict blast damage.

 

For thematic niches, the game is certainly lacking in flying foes. There are two flying balls, the caco and pain elemental, and there's the lost soul. There's certainly nothing like the stereotypical bat-winged demon. I'll plug here @DrPyspy's WIP monster because I think it looks great:

(source)

 

Another missing thematic niche is non-armed zombies. All the possessed humans you meet in the game are former military, with weapons. Now you could of course explain that by Hell not bothering to animate the corpses of people without weapons or combat training, but like, what? Do they really have finite resources? Is there a demonic possession advisor telling Satan that he can't cut back on funding, he will regret this?

 

So that's where you can add the possessed scientists. We could also imagine other zombie variants inspired by those from Doom 3, 2016, and Eternal.

 

Another thematic niche would be non-cybernetic variants of the cyborg demons: mancubus, arachnobrains, cyberdemon... And perhaps cyborg variants of the rest of the roster: the cyber-baron and cybruiser are common custom monsters, but you could have cyber imps, cyber cacos, cyber viles...

 

As a final idea, more boss monsters. After a while, spidey and cybutts end up being quite repetitive and lose a bit of their mystique. Something even grander and tougher than them. Something like the pit fiend from D&D: about as large as a cybie, but faster, tougher, flying around, casting a variety of spells, and lethal in melee. Definitely not the kind of monster you would want to encounter in groups.

 

 

Mechanically, there's no shortage of holes you could fill. For example, they've added the hell knight to fill the hole between imp and baron in the "landbound, simple projectile enemy" but you could add an intermediary between the imp and the knight. There's a spot for flying pop corn enemy -- it's commonly agreed that lost souls are tougher than they should be, which does show you could have something like the lost soul (fast flying melee enemy) but weaker. And a projectile flying enemy that'd be half the health of a cacodemon, perhaps?

 

The arch-vile has two interesting mechanics, its resurrection ability and its unique type of ranged attack. You could have monsters with just one of these traits.

 

There's also unique behaviors. Monster AI in Doom is basically "when the player is sighted, chase them by zigzagging in their general direction, but also sometimes stop and try to attack". From there you can already add variety by having monsters that actually attack on the move instead of stopping. You could also add some sort of leading the shots for some monsters, so they don't shoot where the player is, but where they think the player will be, forcing the player not just to move, but also to change directions frequently. You could have monsters that try to keep their distance, because every Doom monster, even the ranged-only cyberdemon, try to close to melee range. You could have ambush monsters, that stay disguised as something banal until the player is close enough, instead of starting to chase as soon as the player is within line of sight, no matter how long that line is.

 

You could have monsters that shoot interdicting/covering fire. As in, they fire constantly like the arachnotron or chaingunner, but when the player gets out of sight, they just keep firing at the point they last saw the player. So once the player pops out of cover, bam, they get hit anyway, forcing the player to seek another opening to attack if they retreated behind cover. This would encourage fighting on the move instead of popping in and out of cover to take potshots until the opposition is eliminated.

[Mayomancer]

I feel like buffing the Baron of Hell so it's attacks are more dangerous is a good thing to do since it's always just a really big imp, something the Hell Knight does better since it's not as much of a sponge. Eviternity did it right imo, it creates some really high tension fights without the need to spam the usual big guys.

[7Mahonin]

A former marine with a SSG and heavier armor than the other former marines.
 

Spectre Imps that shoot partially invisible homing Imp fireballs, moves faster, and have berserk-like melee damage. 
 

A boss-like demon with 4 arms that uses the BFG built into its chest, with chainsaws replacing the demon’s forearms and hands. Sort of like a Doomified Ubermutant from Wolfenstein. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by TelicAx7

[Thrustpeak]

It feels like there have been tons of great custom monsters already that have identified and filled some holes in the Doom 2 roster.

 

Barons feel unnecessary with Hell Knights existing. So, I think something where the threat is derived from a dangerous attack rather than a bullet spongy health pool really adds something like seen in Valiant with it's Pyro Knight's.

On the subject of Valiant, I also love the suicide bombers. They bring something to the table that none of the other monsters in the roster do. A high priority threat that rushes you and you have to be careful about how you take them out or you'll blow yourself up. You can even take some other enemies with them if you blow them up in a good spot. 

Lastly, it feels like there isn't a truly dangerous pure melee threat. Pinkies are more a threat by blocking your path rather than their actual easily avoidable melee attack. So, I think the melee revenants like in Running Late 2 serve as a better melee attack threat. 

 

One thing that I would like to see more options for—that I can't think of many good examples—is bosses. The less icon of sin finales the better. 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Thrustpeak

[DeathWalkerGT]

Like we did not have a plethora of melee monsters within the curret roster but I kind of like the idea of the wraith from Doom 3, otherwise I would like to see something that resembles a gargoyle or the hell knight from Diablo I.

[Astronomical]

The Plasma zombie is one that seems to always make it into any wad that wants to have a custom enemy, as well as other variants of the zombie with a different weapon.  The chaingunner is nice be he is almost too much of a threat and a plasma zombie makes a nice in between as it gives a player a longer window to deal with them but being about as threatening with the plasma projectile.

[DeathWalkerGT]

6 minutes ago, Plank_Guy_89 said:

The Plasma zombie

Missed opportunities...tactical and gameplay alike

[TheNoob_Gamer]

2 hours ago, Naarok0fkor said:

Is there an editor that can add monsters & other things easily?

Depending on your options, there's quite a lot. Whacked4 if you are going for Dehacked/Multi-port compatibility route or Slade (+ a text editor like Notepad) if you want to use DECORATE/ZSCript for (G)ZDoom if you want to have total freedom in implementing your custom content.

 

1 hour ago, Thrustpeak said:

I can't think of many good examples of Doom bosses

Valiant's highly healthy Archvile and the surrounding turrets in MAP30 (which you seem to have forgotten mentioning) is a rather good example. It taught me how the boss arena setup is very vital to experience.

On that note, perhaps Eviternity's Archangelus is also worth a mention.

[Astronomical]

25 minutes ago, DeathWalkerGT said:

Missed opportunities...tactical and gameplay alike

Depending on how it's implemented, Scythe 2's evil marine is well regarded as an excellent custom enemy.

[DeathWalkerGT]

1 minute ago, Plank_Guy_89 said:

Depending on how it's implemented, Scythe 2's evil marine is well regarded as an excellent custom enemy.

Agree

[Nikku4211]

24 minutes ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Slade (+ a text editor like Notepad) if you want to use DECORATE/ZSCript for (G)ZDoom if you want to have total freedom in implementing your custom content.

Slade is also good for EDF for Eternity, DDF for EDGE and DOSDoom(as in the source port), DED for Doomsday and Risen3D, and ReMooD Data (formerly known as RMOD) for ReMooD.

 

^{Yes I know all of these source ports are obscure and rarely used, but it's still good information for anyone looking to try experimenting with them.}

[Yumheart]

I'm sometimes missing something bigger and more dangerous than cybees.

[7Mahonin]

Also I think there should be some sort of demon that acts like the stalker from HeXen; an enemy that remains in liquid sectors and can dive under the liquid. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by TelicAx7

[Capellan]

4 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

1. I agree that a weaker flyer with a projectile could definitely have a role, e.g. flying imps

 

This, honestly, is the one monster I really feel the lack of.

[joepallai]

A floating enemy that spawns demons/spectres much like a pain elemental but has a secondary projectile attack (weak attack comparable to an imp's fireball).

Turrets (mechanical of varying strengths/projectiles)

Always wanted security cameras that triggered awake other monsters through sound propagation

[Castelia]

Someone above already mentioned it, but I second the idea of a monster with the BFG or similar weapon. I thought the Spider Mastermind would've been a much bigger threat if she had something like that. Maybe some sort of slow-moving monster that really forces you to hide or risk turning into goop.

[RDETalus]

I wish there was a better implementation of a stealth enemy besides the spectre.

 

I would want a enemy that is hard to see, hard to hit, and has ranged attack. The AI would have a minimum range so they "orbit" around the player instead of running straight at the player. It would be like fighting a weaker Arch-Vile. Thematically, it would be a ghost or shadow monster. Also, very importantly, it doesn't cry out when it sees you.

Edited September 10, 2021 by RDETalus

[Doomkid]

Something with the HP, speed and relatively small size of a Revenant that doesn't have homing missiles that do 80 damage rolls at random would be swell.

 

Revs and Hell Knights are great all-rounder enemies, but there's a middle ground between them - as well as a middle ground between Imps and Revs - that I've often found myself having to fill manually in my various wads.

[msx2plus]

i really like glass cannons and revenants tend to fill that role, but i always find myself wanting something with an attack just as strong but Not player-tracing that i can take down with a single SSG/rocket. in my head i imagine it like the nova skeleton from symphony of the night.

 

that and turrets. having to bully monsters into acting like turrets can be a hit or miss affair.

Edited September 10, 2021 by msx2plus

[galileo31dos01]

Quote

What are the holes in doom 2’s monster roster

 

so...

 

 

 

Quote

how could we fill them?

 

mm no not interested

Edited September 10, 2021 by galileo31dos01

[K_Doom]

7 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

1. Eu acho que o monstro que eu quero com mais frequência que não existe é basicamente um imp / cavaleiro do inferno enfraquecido. Cacodemons voam e são muito grandes e ainda têm HP demais. Os revenants são pequenos o suficiente e têm o HP certo, mas seus ataques são muito poderosos, assim como os dos cavaleiros do inferno.
2. Eu concordo que um voador mais fraco com um projétil definitivamente poderia ter uma função, por exemplo, diabinhos voadores.
3. Acho que o bombardeiro suicida personalizado que você vê em muitos maços definitivamente tem uma função clara que você não vê na lista normal: fácil de matar, mas não se aproxime. É como um barril móvel.
4. Os nazistas são inimigos sólidos na hierarquia humana. Infelizmente, eles são nazistas, mas muitas vezes seriam um grande substituto para comandos que iam de Ultra-Violence a Hurt Me Plenty, por exemplo. Os sargentos não são totalmente comparáveis e os ex-humanos são muito mais fracos.
5. Algo mais curto e / ou mais magro que Doomguy. Você pode manipular a geometria para que alguns monstros sejam muito altos / largos, mas não tanto que Doomguy seja. Obviamente, você pode modificar essas coisas se quiser, mas essas são coisas que poderiam ter adicionado outra dinâmica, eu acho.
6. Os arqui-vilões e demônios são únicos por serem totalmente inofensivos de uma certa distância. Pode ser legal se outro monstro tiver o mesmo efeito, mas com um alcance muito maior do que corpo a corpo, mas muito menos do que 1024 unidades, como um lança-chamas ou terremoto ou algo assim, algum tipo de ataque que você pode ignorar totalmente fora do alcance. Os diabinhos de longa distância geralmente não são uma grande ameaça, mas você ainda terá que se esquivar do fogo eventualmente.  
7. Também concordo que algum tipo de monstro imóvel pode ser bom. Plataformas elevadas / rebaixadas e linhas de bloqueio e outras coisas podem funcionar, mas essas configurações geralmente precisam ser menos elegantes do que o ideal.

Apenas lançando algumas idéias. Os únicos cuja ausência eu realmente chego perto de lamentar são 1 e 4.

In realm667 there are literally monsters that fulfill these requirements.