What are the holes in Doom 2's weapon roster and how can we fill them?

[MemeMind]

Ok first of all this is obviously inspired by Jacek Bourne's post https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/124437-what-are-the-holes-in-doom-2’s-monster-roster-and-how-could-we-fill-them/

I thought that we can take this same idea and apply that to Doom 2's weapons.
It could be full on additions or just changes to the vanilla roster.

[Rudolph]

I would like to see a grenade launcher that uses the same ammo as the rocket launcher, like in Quake.

 

Also, I would not say no to a railgun that goes through enemies.

[Gore]

Maybe a sniper, like the BFG 50 or a minigun, not a chaingun.

[Nikku4211]

With bullets, of course.

 

Jokes aside, more melee weapons, please. I don't like how the chainsaw constantly turns me around.

[Murdoch]

For me some form of grenade and/or duke style pipe bomb would be about it.

[Chezza]

Mods already do this, but the starting pistol is a gap as it becomes near useless and boring to use early in game.

 

I would replace it with one of the following:

- A low range, minor damage taser that stuns enemies for a few seconds (pain state activates effect)

- A revolver, heavy damage but has a reload animation (refer BD / PB version)

- A sniper rifle, high damage but slow fire rate (granted the shotgun sort of does this, I would rebalance a little)

 

I'd say there is a gap for a fully or semi automatic rifle but to be honest the chain gun mechanics are sufficient. Again I would refer to mods if we were to alter Doom - BD's ammo eating but extreme DPS minigun would then make room for a more moderate assault rifle.

 

 

[SMG_Man]

I like the quake 2 set of weapons as a baseline. It contains basically all the doom 2 weapons (besides the chainsaw), but it adds:

 

• A machine-gun (functionally the same as Doom's chaingun, while the Quake 2 chaingun is an even more devastating weapon)

• A grenade launcher

• The Railgun

 

From there, there are a few things that could be added for variety's sake, I think:
 

• A conventional rifle (like the one in KDiZD)
• An alternative, stronger pistol like the Magnum Revolver from Half Life (would prob make it share ammo with the Rifle)
• An automatic shotgun
• A plasma weapon that fires explosive projectiles, basically an alternative to the rocket/grenade launchers

• Another "superweapon" with similar power to the BFG (this would probably take the most care to properly balance)

[Artman2004]

I would like to buff the pistol to make it fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, buffing its power but not making it too powerful. 

 

A flamethrower would be nice, either as an area-denial weapon like real ones or the Hollywood-flavor close-range powerhouse. I always like having flamethrowers in FPS games.

 

Explosive traps you can lay down, like land-mines or remote explosives.

[Doomkid]

The Skulltag guns but with less floaty grenades, and maybe without the BFG10K. So a minigun, grenade launcher, and railgun. They’d work like the SG and SSG, alternate weapons for slots 4, 5 and 6.

 

A rifle that was only a little tougher than the pistol but perfectly accurate would be a pretty cool buffer alternative for slot 2 as well. 

[Syn]

Like Doomkid mentioned earlier there's definitely a gap between Imps and Revs that needs to be filled, which I think a form of D64's Nightmare Imp could fill pretty well. The gap with Revs and Hell Knights I don't think really warrants filling, but I think Hell Knights could at least use a minor AI upgrade. Because they really are just big Imps...

[Syn]

1 minute ago, SynDoom said:

Like Doomkid mentioned earlier there's definitely a gap between Imps and Revs that needs to be filled, which I think a form of D64's Nightmare Imp could fill pretty well. The gap with Revs and Hell Knights I don't think really warrants filling, but I think Hell Knights could at least use a minor AI upgrade. Because they really are just big Imps...

I thought this was the monster thread, oops. I clearly cannot read

[7Mahonin]

It would be interesting to have an RPG weapon that fires the revenant projectiles, a more precision-oriented plasma rifle (like a sniper weapon), and a beefier BFG weapon that works more like the Archvile attack on steroids. 
 

Also would like to see a pistol carbine that is basically the pistol in a rifle configuration (ex. Beretta CX4 Storm Rifle), giving it higher accuracy and more likely to cause max pistol damage than the pistol. Another weapon that could come before the chaingun would be a SMG, which could work like the chaingun from the SNES port, meaning it still is rapid fire and fast, but tapping it only shoots off a single shot. 

[Argent Agent]

A weapon that can freeze/incinerate/vaporize monsters so that they cannot be resurrected. That and pretty much what @Doomkid said except maybe with a minigun that doesn't invalidate the chaingun and a railgun that isn't overpowered like the carntag railgun (and one that actually shoots like a real railgun with an explosive impact).

[out_of_service]

I like that assault rifle from the Doom alpha.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, Chezza said:

Mods already do this, but the starting pistol is a gap as it becomes near useless and boring to use early in game.

Or maybe a blaster with infinite ammo like Doom 2016's: this way, the player would still have a ranged attack after running out of ammo.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Rudolph

[Lippeth]

A backup melee option to avoid getting Pac Man'd. Like Duke's mighty foot, but with Doom's chainsaw. After finding one, pressing and holding the melee key interrupts everything else for a better chance at cutting your way out of a corner when surrounded instead of dying trying to slowly switch weapons.

[The BMFG]

a weapon that uses some sort of magic would be badass. like the obscure scrapped weapon from the original doom betas. the dark claw

[Xaser]

Been doing this sorta thing for a while, and there's quite a few broad weapon ability "archetypes" that don't appear in Doom's arsenal at all. I'll pluck a few of these when doing weapon-moddy things, to make sure the weapons each fill a role and aren't just "me too's" or obsolete power upgrades (generally, anyway -- there's always the occasional exception 'cause SSG-types rock :P ).

 

A bunch of random examples off the top of my head:

• Piercing attacks (e.g. railguns, ripper missiles)
• Seeking missiles
• Bouncing projectiles, for hitting enemies around corners
• Gravity-affected projectiles, for hitting enemies in deep pits
• Traps (e.g. proximity mines, remote mines)
• "Summoner" attacks (e.g. turrets, friendly monsters, or a projectile which shoots other projectiles, or other sorts of "fire-and-forget" types)
• Silent weapons (though these are a bit of a PITA to balance right :P )
• Vampiric weapons
• Sniper weapons (though the chaingun fills this role for the most part)
• Non-self-damaging explosions (sounds like a minor tweak, but it completely changes the dynamic of the weapon)
• Lingering damaging effects (e.g. fire, poison gas)
• ...And surely a ton more. This is just me listing off some random things from memory. :P

 

As a sort of specific application example, for ZDCMP2's extended arsenal I wanted to make sure each new weapon filled some sort of unique niche in Doom's existing arsenal (aside from the Rifle and AA-12; the first is just an upgraded starter pistol/shotgun and the latter is a fun secret weapon ;)

• Nailgun fires piercing projectiles, making it exclusively geared towards fighting multiple monsters at once.
• Flamethower is a super-piercer, hitting many foes at once but has a limited range (while the Nailgun does not). The altfire is a fire-themed remote mine trap, with the ability to build your own "fuse" if you want; really proud of this one in retrospect.
• Dark Claw has a seeker+bouncer primary fire and a vampiric beam secondary fire. Simple but effective.
• Soulrender is a funky summoner+sniper combo, firing projectiles that shoot beams at foes while they're active -- sort of a Quake 2 BFG on steroids that's solely focused on the beam aspect so the intent is to not strike foes with it. Another cool one, thinking back, though the final "escape sequence" was balanced too heavily on the assumption that the player has this optional weapon, which makes it a bit of a slog if you miss it. It's a beast. :P
• Grenades in retrospect aren't particularly useful, just sort of an extra explosive with a larger blast radius that you can reach for if you want. In theory you can bank them around corners and in pits, but I don't really get a lot of mileage out of either function while replaying the set. The niche is there, but the execution is iffy.

 

Anyhow yeah, plenty of stuff you can do, whether you're trying to fit in 1 or 2 new guns to the existing arsenal, or craft a whole new one that doesn't just feel like a clone of Doom's. Gonna show off some of this stuff in Vesper, for the curious. ;)

[ketmar]

replace pistol with assault rifle, and minigun with gatling gun (because the current minigun will become mostly useless with good assault rifle as a starting weapon). dunno about grenades, tho: they aren't that useful without vertical look.

 

p.s.: and replace all hitscans with fast projectiles, both for the player and for monsters.

Edited September 11, 2021 by ketmar

[lokbustam257]

replace pistol with assault rifle from Doom Alpha, and that's it i think. Since pretty much every Doom 2 weapons has its purpose. (well, and maybe buff the chainsaw)

[ketmar]

chainsaw --> axe. the difference is that axe damages enemies at the sides too (because DoomGuy is swinging it ;-). this way it will become much better weapon to use to save the player when they're surrounded by monsters.

[Naarok0fkor]

A flamer often replaces the plasma rifle. It should be added. Having guided missiles in addition to rockets would be nice. I woud get rid of the pistol in favor of an assault rifle since it usually is used only when the WAD doesn't give you the gatling or shotguns. Having a canon of some sort & grenades would round things up nicely.

[Naarok0fkor]

8 minutes ago, ketmar said:

chainsaw --> axe. the difference is that axe damages enemies at the sides too (because DoomGuy is swinging it ;-). this way it will become much better weapon to use to save the player when they're surrounded by monsters.

A chainaxe would be even better...

[CBM]

10 minutes ago, ketmar said:

chainsaw --> axe. the difference is that axe damages enemies at the sides too (because DoomGuy is swinging it ;-). this way it will become much better weapon to use to save the player when they're surrounded by monsters.

it would make sense that a close combat weapon like that which shouldnt require ammo or fuel would be more realistic as an axe compared to a magic chainsaw that never runs out of fuel

 

18 minutes ago, lokbustam257 said:

replace pistol with assault rifle from Doom Alpha, and that's it i think. Since pretty much every Doom 2 weapons has its purpose. (well, and maybe buff the chainsaw)

 

2 hours ago, ketmar said:

replace pistol with assault rifle, and minigun with gatling gun (because the current minigun will become mostly useless with good assault rifle as a starting weapon). dunno about grenades, tho: they aren't that useful without vertical look.

 

p.s.: and replace all hitscans with fast projectiles, both for the player and for monsters.

why the assault rifle? there is already the chaingun?

 

I also like the idea of removing hitscanners because its unrealistic IMO but some people seem to love them

 

---

but yearh

 

there is definetly also something to be said for adding stuff just because its cool

 

@Naarok0fkor

chainaxes are cool and they are favored by

chaos space marine khorne berserkers

Edited September 11, 2021 by CBM

[Gez]

Some sort of area-denial weapon, like the tomed hellstaff from Heretic.

[ketmar]

6 minutes ago, CBM said:

why the assault rifle? there is already the chaingun?

because starting the game with a minigun is… unusual. but as a marine, i fully expect to have an assault rifle, not a pea-shooter. ;-) but yep, this makes the minigun much less useful, so it should be replaced too.

 

10 minutes ago, CBM said:

I also like the idea of removing hitscanners because its unrealistic IMO but some people seem to love them

with fast enough projectiles the difference won't be that big. but the bullets will actually take some time to fly, so sniping monsters at a big distance will become harder (and distant monster hitscanners will be less of a treat too).

 

as it will require engine modifications anyway, we can also add tracers, so it will be much easier to see where shots are coming from.

[Fairen]

13 hours ago, SMG_Man said:

• A conventional rifle (like the one in KDiZD)

This is the only answer. The only thing Doom needs is KDiZD's almighty A Rifle.

 

And I don't just mean "it needs that one thing added", I mean "that is the only gun Doom needs to have in it. just A Rifle and A Rifle only".

 

(seriously though, it's not as vital in id wads, but with megawads that love to throw distant chaingunners and revenants everywhere, a long-range precision option is solely desired)

[CBM]

1 hour ago, ketmar said:

because starting the game with a minigun is… unusual. but as a marine, i fully expect to have an assault rifle, not a pea-shooter. ;-) but yep, this makes the minigun much less useful, so it should be replaced too.

 

with fast enough projectiles the difference won't be that big. but the bullets will actually take some time to fly, so sniping monsters at a big distance will become harder (and distant monster hitscanners will be less of a treat too).

 

as it will require engine modifications anyway, we can also add tracers, so it will be much easier to see where shots are coming from.

I agree :-)

 

but isnt a gatling gun the same as a minigun?

 

I think a heavy flamer (that lets enemies catch fire and run around, setting fire to other monsters as well) could be a better substiitute as the minigun, gatling gun and assault rifle all fill the same role... however, the assault rifle could be fitted with a grenade launcher and this fire grenades using alt-fire ... then we would be able to hit enemies around a corner

 

maybe replace the plasmagun with a railgun and give the BFG 9000 an alternate firemode where it shoots plasma balls like the plasmagun does...

 

here is how an alternate layout could look like while utilizing

previous suggestions in this thread, zoom, alternate fire mode and all 10 slots:

1) fists, fireaxe (short reach)

2) chainsaw that needs fuel, combat shovel (maybe some kind of utility?)

3) chainaxe that needs fuel, scythe (long reach)

4) assault rifle, laser rifle (because they are cool)

5) shotgun, super shotgun

6) heavy flamer, tomed hellstaff

7) rocket launcher with heat seeking missiles as alternate fire, nailgun

8) rail gun, dark claw

9) BFG 9000 with plasmagun alternate fire mode, sniper rifle with zoom

0) duke style pipe bomb but with a remotely triggered detonation and a timed detonation in alternate fire mode, Soulrender

 

maybe KDiZD's a rifle instead of the laser rifle or the shotgun

Edited September 11, 2021 by CBM

[ax34]

Railgun or sniper rifle: shoots straight at centre of the screen, deals big damage (less than rocket but more than regular shotgun), but it requires crosshair, so not for vanilla.

Edited September 11, 2021 by ax34

[Vaeros]

Dark claw or The Unmaker, At least they did it in Doom 64.