I'm Glad Doom Eternal Is Hard

[QuaketallicA]

8 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I think the "hardcore/OTT" gore and music also add to the overall intensity, which can sometimes give the impression that the game itself is more difficult due to adrenaline and energy.

 

That's probably a part of it, for sure.

[whatup876]

I do thinks some Doom fans sort of "Harry Pottered" their series, which can explain opinions with superlative statements (X is the most Y etc) and even how some discussion goes.

Like how people discuss the art direction of Eternal and say stuff like "they literally HD remastered the classic designs" or "took away 2016's grit", which is a contrast to Souls fans saying that the Demon Souls remake by BluePoint is inferior to the 2009 original because they actually point out the trends and inspirations.

 

It makes me think that John Carmack's "story in a game" quote had an effect on Doom where people undermine it even more than they should, even if the setting is still silly on its own.

Specially when with the years of Doom mods, you might as well think Doom fans did care for the setting/aesthetic.

In a way, the "world of Doom" would make more sense to be judged by looking at what's in the games and manuals than one interview quote that even Carmack partially changed his mind on.

Not so much "it's supposed to be silly, ignore it" but more "it's weirdly presented but you can interpret it in some ways".

 

At times, you can't tell if Doom really is a "universally beloved series" or "meant to be silly, so it's supposed to be ironic" when looking at its public image.

Even people that hate when game journos look down on something like Japanese VN's rarely point out how Doom may or may not have certain visual trends they don't really like elsewhere. (like the usual jaded "ugh, modern games" cynical type that likes some exceptional modern games when MatthewMatosis actually went "it's amazing but it's not really a return to form and there are some trends in it" but not even "hot takes" types carried that often)

 

I guess it's also whether or not people want Doom to "compete" with other franchises in specific areas, because at the same time, if anyone thinks "Doom needs more epic", they'd reanaylize some things and think "wait a minute, why is the heart of Hell some tech city and not something fucked up looking?".

To me, most of modern Doom's "edge" is likely to be found in the soundtrack alone.

 

In the end, a lot of my Doom takes might as well be "if you really think about it, Doom can be more epic and i think even the new fans and at least one guy at id agrees with me, even if i suffer heavily of ideas guy syndrom".

 

Even then, i sometimes think of second chances and that there could always be another Doom game that may reinterprate some of the things these games have given us.

Partially why i (and some others) even write "epic cool ideas" specially since i don't even care of given credit out of a "someone else should have thought of this".

 

I also think the reason Eternal was even hard to some people was because of the power fantasy marketing.

As in, if more material showed Doomguy with a broken armor and wounds, most people would think "you can tell this is a hard game because that guy is DOOMED lol".

Something weird to consider: the direction of the Slayer and its appeal may or may not correlate to how it's like an inverse to how something like TLJ treated Luke or the age of "wholesomeness", so rarely to Gen Z get a character meant to be "badass" or a power fantasy.

[Murdoch]

I don't have a problem with hard. I have a problem with dickish, and too often Eternal crosses that line for my tastes. I still like the game overall but Jesus it gets frustrating at times.

[Chezza]

5 hours ago, Murdoch said:

I don't have a problem with hard. I have a problem with dickish, and too often Eternal crosses that line for my tastes. I still like the game overall but Jesus it gets frustrating at times.

Their master levels - 100% diskish where at times your skills can't prevent the BS thrown at you like hidden Archviles behind walls and invisible tentacles in crucial platforming moments.

 

But I find the normal campaign not so bad. It was not knowing where the totems were that felt the worst in first play throughs.

[Serum]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:42 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

 There really isn't any shooter that has come out that feels and plays like Doom Eternal. 

you should try Ultrakill  if you haven’t. I definitely feel like it’s the closest that I’ve stumbled across. Absolute fuckin mayhem 

[QuaketallicA]

On 9/26/2021 at 7:49 PM, Chezza said:

Their master levels - 100% diskish where at times your skills can't prevent the BS thrown at you like hidden Archviles behind walls and invisible tentacles in crucial platforming moments.

 

But I find the normal campaign not so bad. It was not knowing where the totems were that felt the worst in first play throughs.

 

I was having a blast doing the Super Gore Nest Master Level on UV classic mode, every encounter I thought was really well-thought out and challenging. I actually didn't even find a rocket launcher you were supposed to get, so I landed up slaying a Marauder with nothing but a basic shotgun/grenade launcher attachment, which forced me to think outside the usual strategy and was quite satisfying. Only thing is, I wanted to take a break (got tiring after a while) so I saved and quit...only to find out it doesn't save your checkpoint. And I was near the end of the level, so over an hour of playing was lost. I wish they would warn you that you're gonna lose your progress if you quit now or better still save your checkpoint if you leave.

[whatup876]

Speaking of mods and how to make DE harder:

 

[Cynical]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:42 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

There really isn't any shooter that has come out that feels and plays like Doom Eternal. 

You obviously haven't played Vanquish.  Doom Eternal is basically first-person Vanquish, but much worse.

[jazzmaster9]

3 hours ago, Cynical said:

You obviously haven't played Vanquish.  Doom Eternal is basically first-person Vanquish, but much worse.

 I have played Vanquish on the PS3. I see the similarities and i did enjoy it, but it really didn't stick with me and moved on, which is probably why i forgot about it existing.

Edited October 14, 2021 by jazzmaster9

[whatup876]

Saw this one modded/ML level and later on, there's a portal dropping rockets in an arena.

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by whatup876

[BillyBlaze]

I’m playing this on PS4 and it’s insane. Does anyone have a good link to some hardware I can buy to hook up a keyboard and mouse. It’s just impossible with a controller. Plus I’m old and the twitch reflexes I had in 1994 have long since gone 😆

[Kute]

I don't agree with the guys saying Doom 2.wad is harder than Eternal, at all. I've beaten Doom 1 and 2 pistol starting on UV with no saves, and Doom: Eternal's way, way trickier.

I mean something like Sunder is much more difficult than Eternal, even Eviternity probably as well.

 

But Doom Eternal is pretty complicated for a FPS. It's what makes it so different and so good. IMO it leaves every other modern FPS for dead. Once you get into the flow and have a couple good fights, no other game can make you feel so good - but then you get caught in a corner and no other game makes you feel so incompetent.

 

How many old IP's in any media get brought back for a cash grab and drug through the mud - we should be grateful that in 2021, one of the best games on Earth is still Doom.

[Kute]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:32 PM, BillyBlaze said:

I’m playing this on PS4 and it’s insane. Does anyone have a good link to some hardware I can buy to hook up a keyboard and mouse. It’s just impossible with a controller. Plus I’m old and the twitch reflexes I had in 1994 have long since gone 😆

 

I went through this last december, I wanted to try it so I bought it for PS4. But I could NOT play it with a controller. And I didn't want to put in the time to do it, it's not the real Doom way and you can't do the fast swapping that's so important to modern Doom. So I bought a videocard and a new CPU - which also got me interested in mining ethereum. Now I have 6 videocards paid off and I get 30 bucks a day. It's free fuckin' money.

 

But yea I play Doom Eternal in 4k with raytracing, and it's a good looking game.

 

But because of the aforementioned mining, it's fuckin' impossible to find cards. And even if you do buy one from a real store, it'll cost you 700 bucks for a midgrade card. It's insanity.

 

[Quasar]

Having a range of difficulty settings is fine, and good, and should be encouraged, but Eternal is not doing it correctly, continuing to lean further and further into madness in order to cater to a very tiny subset of streamers and youtubers that devour ultra-hard content because their fanbases push hard to watch it.

 

There's no better illustration of what's wrong than the cosmetic awards being assigned to Nightmare playthroughs - fully successful ones only - of Horde Mode, which even on so-called easy is anything but - it's extremely stressful all the way through and especially at the end. Some of the encounter design is just plain nasty and not fun. For example, a possessed marauder is a thing that can cross any terrain in seconds to be right next to you, cannot be stunned in any way, and, while doing that, it spams dog summons as fast as possible. There's zero balance to it, it's just something you have to pray you can get rid of somehow while running backward and spamming whatever will shoot out of your person. The final rounds of Horde Mode are spamming these guys, as well as arch-viles which have a nearly as-bad buffing effect on everything.

 

So yeah; I paid the same $90 everybody else did for the special edition but I will absolutely never get to use the cool looking Arcade Slayer skin because somebody at id thinks it's funny to lock that kind of stuff behind a mode that you need to be a meth addict to play - so, my copy of the game is devalued permanently by comparison.

 

It's psychologically abusive, honestly. It's a carrot on a stick trying to get you to self-harm by doing the virtual equivalent of repeatedly smashing yourself into a brick wall. It's completely disrespectful to anyone not in that top tier of what I estimate is maybe 10 people at most at this point. The amount of toxicity from the people who can do this stuff is disgusting too and there's already been some of that leaking through in this very thread.

 

They're doing the same thing now with Battlemode, which is even more disgusting. I played through Doom 2016's entire MP progression to unlock all the skins and such because I found that to be an enjoyable experience of its own, even though I was pretty bad at the multiplayer. I got better as time went on but I was never a regular to the top of the podium. Instead of this fun system where you made progress just by playing, Eternal has gone with a system where you have to get these win streaks - many wins in a row - in a limited amount of time, even - to unlock stuff. What's the point of even trying it if you know you're not good at it? If they intended to increase engagement well, they're going about it in the completely wrong direction for the non-gods.

[jazzmaster9]

I do find it very refreshing seeing a more "play better' approach to unlocks and cosmetics. Sure you can pay for some of it, but really theres not better satisfaction than finally getting that upgrade after doing a legitimate challenge.

 

For me, who isnt a god gamer by any stretch mind you, it's a welcome change of pace. and i do hope they refine it more, to where its not just purple Goo and Super Marauders, and continue with the trend on future projects.

Edited November 4, 2021 by jazzmaster9

[shaaap]

On 10/26/2021 at 12:32 AM, BillyBlaze said:

I’m playing this on PS4 and it’s insane. Does anyone have a good link to some hardware I can buy to hook up a keyboard and mouse. It’s just impossible with a controller. Plus I’m old and the twitch reflexes I had in 1994 have long since gone 😆

I've been there mate, know that feel. The best thing you can do is to re-arrange the controller layout. Move the jump button to L1 and dash to L3, so that you can jump/dash and look around and the same time. This is very similar to tactical layout in 2016. Also try different sensitivity settings, I ended up on 37 horizontal and 27 vertical, though youtube pros claim the higher sensitivity - the better. This game is not meant for controller for sure, but I managed to beat main game on HMP. Good news are that 2016 on UV is now a walk in the park. Can't wait to try Eternal on UV.

[whatup876]

I like what they've done with the Novik statues and those energy laser Marauders.

[whatup876]

Speaking of hard mods: i've seen another unique take on buff-like effects.

 

Including some good voice acting work. same channel has more DE mod related stuff, like a Gargoyle variant with different types of resistances/weaknesses and bouncy balls.

Edited December 10, 2021 by whatup876

[Oday]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:13 PM, The Strife Commando said:

I want challenge and adrenaline. I don't want my hand held, I don't want the game telling me what to do. I'm glad it's fast paced and frantic with beefy weapons that are not your typical real life guns that show up in today's AAA shooters. I'm also glad that story isn't a huge focus. I don't want the game to be so easy and dumbed down. This isn't Call of Duty or Battlefield, this is Doom! This game isn't for chumps. Thank you id Software for giving us this gem. May your game go unnoticed.

Thank you for clarifying that. I just need that right moment and mood to just simply play Eternal for a really long time.

[Uncle Joe's van]

Doom was always about difficulty. Wether it be The original Quartet's style with the level design and enemy placement, or with the new ones having an Serious Sam/Painkiller style of gameplay with the Gorenests in 2016.

[Kute]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:46 AM, Quasar said:

Having a range of difficulty settings is fine, and good, and should be encouraged, but Eternal is not doing it correctly, continuing to lean further and further into madness in order to cater to a very tiny subset of streamers and youtubers that devour ultra-hard content because their fanbases push hard to watch it.

 

There's no better illustration of what's wrong than the cosmetic awards being assigned to Nightmare playthroughs - fully successful ones only - of Horde Mode, which even on so-called easy is anything but - it's extremely stressful all the way through and especially at the end. Some of the encounter design is just plain nasty and not fun. For example, a possessed marauder is a thing that can cross any terrain in seconds to be right next to you, cannot be stunned in any way, and, while doing that, it spams dog summons as fast as possible. There's zero balance to it, it's just something you have to pray you can get rid of somehow while running backward and spamming whatever will shoot out of your person. The final rounds of Horde Mode are spamming these guys, as well as arch-viles which have a nearly as-bad buffing effect on everything.

 

So yeah; I paid the same $90 everybody else did for the special edition but I will absolutely never get to use the cool looking Arcade Slayer skin because somebody at id thinks it's funny to lock that kind of stuff behind a mode that you need to be a meth addict to play - so, my copy of the game is devalued permanently by comparison.

 

It's psychologically abusive, honestly. It's a carrot on a stick trying to get you to self-harm by doing the virtual equivalent of repeatedly smashing yourself into a brick wall. It's completely disrespectful to anyone not in that top tier of what I estimate is maybe 10 people at most at this point. The amount of toxicity from the people who can do this stuff is disgusting too and there's already been some of that leaking through in this very thread.

 

They're doing the same thing now with Battlemode, which is even more disgusting. I played through Doom 2016's entire MP progression to unlock all the skins and such because I found that to be an enjoyable experience of its own, even though I was pretty bad at the multiplayer. I got better as time went on but I was never a regular to the top of the podium. Instead of this fun system where you made progress just by playing, Eternal has gone with a system where you have to get these win streaks - many wins in a row - in a limited amount of time, even - to unlock stuff. What's the point of even trying it if you know you're not good at it? If they intended to increase engagement well, they're going about it in the completely wrong direction for the non-gods.

 

OMG dude, reading this nonsense was actually making me angry.

 

They can't gate anything behind tough content because people like you feel entitled to... tiny lines of code. They like can't even put achievements behind something as big of an undertaking as an Ultra NM run, because of immature entitlement. 

 

I guarantee Doom has a difficulty level appropriate for you. I'm sorry there's content for people who want to play well. I'm sorry they can't even give out useless ugly "skins" for huge undertakings without enraging people. They literally can't even give achievements for big accomplishments because of the entitlement of people like you.

 

I'm kind of  fascinated though. What else do you feel entitled to because you spent a small sum of money?

 

[gwain]

there aren't ant hitscaners so I dont like it that much its hard but there is no stratgey of taking out low heath high dps hitscaners

game play loop is kinda boring

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by gwain
embed fail took out gif

[whatup876]

This is mildly related but i'm remembered on the phrase "Doom is singleplayer, Quake is multiplayer" and how these games are usually associated with speed.

Because traditional retro arena FPS aren't as popular but most noticeably is how Quake's current state with longevity seems to be more about single player maps and mods besides Arcane Dimensions. (in a way, it makes Quake closer to its older brother)

 

It makes me wonder how much of the heart of FPS is less about "speed" and more about just "variety".

Like situations (avoiding projectiles, taking cover, running fast, taking it slow, platforming, exploration) or features of a game (types of guns, enemies, items, things in a level, resources etc) because of how that even correlates with game design, how a new entry can differ or innovate and even mods or crossovers.

Yeah "MetaDoom brainrot again", i know.

And both variety and speed can be combined.

 

I do think that in theory, you could even make a COD game look "fast" but the lame design would still be there.

One benefit of speed in FPS is performance, specially with the id tech side of things.

 

Even then, it also gives prespective to how id comes up with stuff like microwaving the Spirit and parts of platforming.

[BGreener]

Nightmare has been a blast, but even so I wish they took more of a cue from the originals and scaled spawns to difficulty. If you start low and work towards a higher setting you'll only see an increase in enemy aggression, it'll still be the same mobs and encounters so it won't be as fresh on a replay. I can sympathize with the sentiment of "not wanting to miss out" on intended encounters, but it also could've helped alleviate some of the concerns I've seen of the game being too overwhelming. I also like the idea of scaling ammo and max counts to difficulty while really keeping things as cranked as they are on Nightmare.

 

8 hours ago, whatup876 said:

This is mildly related but i'm remembered on the phrase "Doom is singleplayer, Quake is multiplayer" and how these games are usually associated with speed.

Because traditional retro arena FPS aren't as popular but most noticeably is how Quake's current state with longevity seems to be more about single player maps and mods besides Arcane Dimensions. (in a way, it makes Quake closer to its older brother)

 

It makes me wonder how much of the heart of FPS is less about "speed" and more about just "variety".

Like situations (avoiding projectiles, taking cover, running fast, taking it slow, platforming, exploration) or features of a game (types of guns, enemies, items, things in a level, resources etc) because of how that even correlates with game design, how a new entry can differ or innovate and even mods or crossovers.

Yeah "MetaDoom brainrot again", i know.

And both variety and speed can be combined.

 

I do think that in theory, you could even make a COD game look "fast" but the lame design would still be there.

One benefit of speed in FPS is performance, specially with the id tech side of things.

 

Even then, it also gives prespective to how id comes up with stuff like microwaving the Spirit and parts of platforming.

 

Even with TCs and other gameplay modifications, I feel the amount of content held up by the use of the original Doom 1 and 2's enemy and weapon rosters speaks for itself on the "speed vs. variety" concept. Not to dismiss the idea of "speed" being important to the gameplay, but I think it can lead to overemphasizing it like people often do with the "challenge" in FromSoft games - inadvertently overlooking the vast array of enemies they tend to have.