Plutonia wasn't hard in compare to...

[UnknDoomer]

It seems till current days people like to complain & joke about how hard Plutonia was, ever if they never played one. It seems all that discussions overshadow in turn really tough things that, in some cases, released before Plutonia. As for example. Did you tried to complete E4M1/2 on UV in Ultimate version of Doom? To deal with all the enemies on first map it will require to kill some barons with bare hands...

 

 

And start only with them second level with pack of barons, cacodemons and lava everywhere. In top of that second level has cyberdemon at it's end that can kill you by one shot, especially if you use mods like Complex Doom or so, still, by other hand you can telefrag him, if you know how to do it...

 

 

Do you know difficult one WAD's that released before Plutonia, but forgotten for good now?

[spineapple tea]

Ignoring the fact that this thread is nearly incomprehensible,

32 minutes ago, UnknDoomer said:

As for example. Did you tried to complete E4M1/2 on UV in Ultimate version of Doom?

 

Do you know difficult one WAD's that released before Plutonia, but forgotten for good now?

I dont think anyone forgot about episode 4 of Doom 1 just because of Plutonia.

Edited September 27, 2021 by N1ck

[Pseudonaut]

40 minutes ago, UnknDoomer said:

As for example. Did you tried to complete E4M1/2 on UV in Ultimate version of Doom? To deal with all the enemies on first map it will require to kill some barons with bare hands...

Not necessarily. You can group them up and shoot rockets, then the splash damage will deal enough extra damage that you won't run out of ammo if you spent it efficiently.

 

43 minutes ago, UnknDoomer said:

In top of that second level has cyberdemon at it's end that can kill you by one shot

Well yeah, there are cyberdemons in Plutonia too, and most of them can't be telefragged, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

 

Also, Plutonia is easy.

[UnknDoomer]

Also, Plutonia is easy.

 

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Research/looking for of ancient old hard WAD's basically.

Edited September 27, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[BaileyTW]

I think most people just sort of don't deal with the secret barons their first time around, and sort of think of the difficulty of the map as either "E4M1" or "E4M1 but killing the barons".

[AntonLiniares]

I don't think it makes sense to name mods when comparing the difficulty of the iwads, as that content was meant to be played in vanilla.

[Astronomical]

Hear me out, I had played a few custom wads before taking on Plutonia.  Plutonia wasn't that hard for me but it's important to account for one detail that no one does.  Look at Alien Vendetta or Scythe 2, both really hard, but you don't go down to the local retailer to buy Alien Vendetta buy Scythe 2 on steam.  You download it expecting to have a challenge to grind through.  Many people bought final doom, played tnt, and started plutonia and got humbled by an archvile chaingunner combo in the 3rd room.  Any wad released today on par with Plutonia in difficulty is considered accessible, unless they are so dark you can't see anything and otherwise it would have not been a challenge at all. 

[Murdoch]

Everyone plays differently, so one person's perception of difficulty will be different to yours. Personally, I found Plutonia more dickish than hard and that's why I quite avidly dislike it. I am all for challenge, traps and surprises. If I died because my skills failed me, that's all good. But if I am forever reloading my game because there's no way I could have reasonably reacted to a given trap without knowing it was there, that gets old to me very old very quick and also frankly kind of boring. I have a short fuse and little tolerance for annoyance. If traps require foreknowledge, the effect of the trap is basically nullified.

 

But what I consider a reasonable period of time to react, just like difficulty, is going to differ from yours. We are all different and that's fine :)

[P41R47]

gameplay mods throw wathever balance the map could have just out of the window.
 

1 hour ago, UnknDoomer said:

Research/looking for of ancient old hard WAD's basically.

Thanks for clarifying what you want, as in the OP it didn't said that :P

Before Plutonia was released, just a few maps were hard, and they were also made by the Casali Bros.(one of them, at least): Punisher and Memento Mori Map24: DieHard.
Memento Mori I as whole is a good package that may reach Plutonia difficulty on some maps, but as it was one of the first mapsets ever made, people tried to go with something as difficult as Doom 2, instead.

One mapset that is totally hard, old, was one of the first megawads ever made, and it was really hrd for it time is H2H- Xmas.
Don't get fooled by the christmas theme, its really hard on some maps. 

You have to take into the equation, that NOT all the people out there played Ultimate Doom, backthen.
Ultimate Doom was the retail version of Doom, only sold at stores or venues. 
Most people had the registered version of Doom, that goes only up to Episode 3.

Also, as game were pretty pricey backthen, it was not usual to have both games.
Most people only had Doom 2, and thanks to internet, they downloaded wads and new mapsets for it.

If you look from a wider point you will realise that there are only a handful of Ultimate Doom or registered Doom mapsets, but tons of mapsets for Doom 2.
It not only was the one most chosen for modding, it was the one most people had.
And so, lots of people only found about Thy Flesh Consumed at a later point in their life. Not when it was release.
 

Alien TC, was harder than the the whole registered Doom, but it doesn't come near to Plutonia hard.
Try it if you want, its not compatible with gameplay mods, though.
Or find an Alien Themed gameplay mod if you want.

KontraComando made quite a few of them hosted on Moddb.

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

Not necessarily. You can group them up and shoot rockets

Seems to then I've missed in somewhere then... Both in previous playgrounds without Complex, same as yestarday...

 

Quote

You have to take into the equation, that NOT all the people out there played Ultimate Doom, backthen.

And so, lots of people only found about Thy Flesh Consumed at a later point in their life. Not when it was release.

 

Well. Now things make sence.

 

Quote

just a few maps were hard, and they were also made by the Casali Bros.

So basically things just were getting hard by the same folks step by step and not many have tried to go into that field before them... / most of people were just not familiar with other sort of things, i.e. didn't play PWADs that active, that it was later, only got retail onces. Well, at least if look at the release dates of the WAD's:

 

+/- 1. 11.03.94. Aliens TC. https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/aliens/alientc1, according to https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Aliens_TC

*. 30.09.94. Doom II.

2. 30.04.95. The Ultimate Doom.

3. Memento Mori. Somewhere in 1995. Probably December. https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/mm/mm_allup

4. H2H-Xmas. 18.12.95. https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/xmas/h2h-xmas

5. 26.12.95. Master Levels for Doom II.

6. 17.06.96. The Plutonia Experiment.

 

In such case "Master Levels for Doom II" can be allocated separately - there were enough pretty tough levels there on UV and it's was in retail too, but, once again, perhaps not too many have played it ever in compare to Ultimate.

 

Interesting fact also that things start to get tougher in 3 cases at the same time / release date - December 1995. Probably it is not worth losing sight of collections with levels also, i.e. packs on CD's, although, again, this is probably a 1996+ phenomenon in most cases, same as CD itself was later thing in compare to floppies, that I've seen personally in active use till... hm probably up to middle of the 00's.

Edited September 28, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[UnknDoomer]

Another reason why people not care/remember much about episode four is, probably, it's overall atmosphere. It might be difficult here and there, it plays with platforms, looks interesting, but, by other hand, has nothing special, i.e. doesn't have it's own style, or sort of, in compare to three classic onces.

 

 

BTW. Final boss just got stuck himself.

Edited September 28, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Captain POLAND]

Plutonia wasn't hard. Then again maybe that's because I don't play every level from a pistol start and I save often.

[GarrettChan]

I beat E4M2 without taking damage, easy.

[Teo Slayer]

Me when I first played Plutonia: HARDEST SHIT I'VE EVER PLAYED

Me when I played Plutonia for the 50th time: Ez

[ChestedArmor]

Plutonia was hard for it's time.

Compare it to the other titles back then and you'll see why it was considered hard.

(Remember when Doom II throw 2 WHOLE ARCH -VILES at us one time?!)

 

 

Of course it's "nothing" by todays standarts,

because we've been 1-upping eachother for decades.

Edited September 28, 2021 by ChestedArmor

[P41R47]

13 hours ago, UnknDoomer said:

Another reason why people not care/remember much about episode four is, probably, it's overall atmosphere. It might be difficult here and there, it plays with platforms, looks interesting, but, by other hand, has nothing special, i.e. doesn't have it's own style, or sort of, in compare to three classic onces.

aesthetic wise, E4 is the best.
People not care/remember much because most people doesn't play Ultimate Doom.
Fact.

It has it own style, pretty much as any other episode.
E1 pure tech base.

E2 tech base and some hellish areas, hence corrupted tech base.

E3 hell and abstract areas.

E4 hellstyle temple with wood, lots of marble, dirt and a few tech areas on later levels.

 

17 hours ago, UnknDoomer said:

So basically things just were getting hard by the same folks step by step and not many have tried to go into that field before them... / most of people were just not familiar with other sort of things, i.e. didn't play PWADs that active, that it was later, only got retail onces. Well, at least if look at the release dates of the WAD's:

 

+/- 1. 11.03.94. Aliens TC. https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/aliens/alientc1, according to https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Aliens_TC

*. 30.09.94. Doom II.

2. 30.04.95. The Ultimate Doom.

3. Memento Mori. Somewhere in 1995. Probably December. https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/mm/mm_allup

4. H2H-Xmas. 18.12.95. https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/xmas/h2h-xmas

5. 26.12.95. Master Levels for Doom II.

6. 17.06.96. The Plutonia Experiment.

 

In such case "Master Levels for Doom II" can be allocated separately - there were enough pretty tough levels there on UV and it's was in retail too, but, once again, perhaps not too many have played it ever in compare to Ultimate.

 

Interesting fact also that things start to get tougher in 3 cases at the same time / release date - December 1995. Probably it is not worth losing sight of collections with levels also, i.e. packs on CD's, although, again, this is probably a 1996+ phenomenon in most cases, same as CD itself was later thing in compare to floppies, that I've seen personally in active use till... hm probably up to middle of the 00's.

interesting analisys.

But the truth is that the community, especially the speedrunning scene, were going that way before the Casali made Plutonia.
H2H-Xmas was made mostly by speedrunners and map challengers.
Read this to fully understand what it was:
https://onemandoom.blogspot.com/2011/06/h2h-xmas-h2h-xmaswad.html

Anyway, H2H scene predates Hell Reveled that started it development a few months before Plutonia, but was released after it.
So yeah, the community was pushing the boundaries of what hard means back then, and it still doing it by today standars.
The Casali Bros. were just the most visible face of that part of the community thanks to being on TeamTNT, and that bring them the possibility to be part of Final Doom.

Alien Vendetta, as you may guess by now, was also made by some really good speedrunners, that lead the project to be the gigantic milestone it is on the doom history.
No surprise that Scythe was also made by an amazing speedrunner.
And you know what?
Kama Sutra was also made by two great speedrunners.

Even when speedtunning is not the most visible face of the Doom community, it is the one pushing it to new directions almost all the time.

And now the speedrunning community has their own source-port, DSDA-Doom, and it creation, along other parallel advancements, made possible the creation of MBF21, so... i think you get what i'm trying to say.
;) 

Edited September 28, 2021 by P41R47

[LadyMistDragon]

Map 28 from Memento Mori or Maps 21 and 23 from Memento Mori II. I can think of plenty more examples but they are all considerably harder than Plutonia for various reasons

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

Memento Mori II

7. 27.07.96. Little after Plutonia, 10 days difference, https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/mm/mm2

Edited September 29, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Zulk RS]

How much a mapset accomodates a players play-style can also impact greatly on how hard it feels. I personally felt Plutonia harder than E4. However, I also found Plutonia harder than Ancient Aliens so there's that. Perhaps your playstyle is more suited to Plutonia than it is to E4. Also Plutonia is treated to be so hard is because the only thing it's being compared to is the IWADs. Out of Doom, Doom 2, TNT and Plutonia, Plutonia is extremely difficult. Yeah stuff like Hell Revealed, Memento Mori, Alien Vendetta are probably harder but they also aren't IWADs.

 

Also if you bring Complex Doom in the mix, I can say it would turn E4 into a nightmare while making Plutonia still manageable. This is because E4 has a lot of mid and high tier monsters in small, tight rooms and on Complex Doom, that ends in very very difficult scenarios. Plutonia has more hitscanners and stuff and also gives you more space to move around. It will still cause a bump in difficulty but not by too much.

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

Yeah stuff like Hell Revealed, Memento Mori, Alien Vendetta are probably harder but they also aren't IWADs.

Quote

I can think of plenty more examples but they are all considerably harder than Plutonia for various reasons

Hell Revealed dated as 2.05.97. Purpose of this thread was basically to find out what might exist / forgotten in compare to Plutonia in case of difficulty level and i.e. released before it. Basically after it's release there a bunch of way tougher things start to exist here and there. Espesially after the end of a decade.

Edited September 29, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

Also if you bring Complex Doom in the mix, I can say it would turn E4 into a nightmare

True, but can make things more interesting / challenging, especially if you repeat the things in a n-way.

Edited September 29, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

(Remember when Doom II throw 2 WHOLE ARCH -VILES at us one time?!)

M28 - "The Spirit World", at the end of the level. But, by other hand, meet them on UV + Complex Doom in current game repeat. Ever for last map spawning of 2 archs at once, i.e. in a row, is rare thing, that's true.

Edited October 2, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Kute]

On 9/28/2021 at 1:20 AM, Captain POLAND said:

Plutonia wasn't hard. Then again maybe that's because I don't play every level from a pistol start and I save often.

Everything is easy playing like that.

[Zulk RS]

9 minutes ago, Kute said:

Everything is easy playing like that.

 

Yeah no... things can still be extremely hard even if you don't pistol start and savescum. Case in point: Stardate 20x6, Holy Hell, Cosmogensis etc. etc.

[UnknDoomer]

Made an a video. Original, only DosBox was used, add-on on Ultra-Violence difficulty. In addition have used "old-fashioned" way of the controls - no mouse beed used, only arrows for moving, ctrl for shooting, shift for run, space for use/open.