Massive difficulty spikes early on in recent wads

[MattFright]

Of course this has always been a thing but i've felt this a lot more the past two years with some of the biggest releases, especially after seeing someone on DW pointing out something very similar although it was about difficulty rather than necessarily pacing. I've found myself enjoying a lot of releases lately but, more often than not and increasingly so in big releases lately (or so i've felt), there's maps early on (if not the very first) in a mapset that i REALLY enjoyed, but right at the final fight, it's not necessarily difficult to pull off? as much as it just doesn't leave you any time to think and ends up just being overwhelming for the sake of it, ruining the flow of the map and usually causing a permanent rage quit from the wad.

 

For reference, Eviternity is a perfect example of before i felt this started happening to wads, where its pacing feels really smooth and hardly ever did i feel like being overwhelmed for the sake of it (even with the astral cacodemon), even with how bad at Doom i used to be when it came out during my 100% blind UV playthroughs.

 

But i didn't want to just come here and complain! For one, i wanted to ask how many other people have felt this as well (because i honestly have no idea), and if there's anything i can do to enjoy those if i'm the one doing something wrong. Saving right before those fights, for one, is something that seems to help others but doesn't seem to be helping me at all, though.

[DuckReconMajor]

I just assumed this was a thing that's been happening since Scythe. It can be frustrating but i always urge people to try saving more, lowering the difficulty, giving yourself a bit of health (iddqd twice or console) before giving up on what's probably the most beautiful part of the WAD.

 

I know that's not the way a lot of people want to play which is fine, but I'm always in favor of bucking the "always on my grind" gamer mentality to extract even more fun out of these experiences. It's ok to just look at levels, you don't have to go -nomonsters to do so either; I personally feel a bit lonely without the demons running around.

22 minutes ago, MattFright said:

Saving right before those fights, for one, is something that seems to help others but doesn't seem to be helping me at all, though.

I know a lot of people don't like this but I have 0 qualms with saving mid-fight (in a different slot so i don't screw myself over)

But these days of course we have dsda-doom rewind which makes that not even necessary! GZDoom's quicksave rotation is good for this as well.

 

edit: I guess I should engage with the topic a bit more directly. My personal theory on why WADs do this is that they all want you to feel the satisfaction of getting through the hard fights at the end. To do that they have to get you engaged with their "thing" they're trying to do early on, then slowly raise the temperature to engage you even more. I think a lot of games do this and as such, many WADs follow suit.

Edited October 16, 2021 by DuckReconMajor

[MattFright]

2 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

 

I know that's not the way a lot of people want to play which is fine, but I'm always in favor of bucking the "always on my grind" gamer mentality to extract even more fun out of these experiences. It's ok to just look at levels, you don't have to go -nomonsters to do so either; I personally feel a bit lonely without the demons running around.

 

I used to be the type to try to UV-saveless every map i played for a good while but man it really isn't cutting it for me anymore lol

 

3 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

I know a lot of people don't like this but I have 0 qualms with saving mid-fight (in a different slot so i don't screw myself over)

But these days of course we have dsda-doom rewind which makes that not even necessary!

 

Oooo i thought that was a feature for demos only... I'll definitely give it a try next time i try playing Doom, thanks for the suggestion!

[ReaperAA]

52 minutes ago, MattFright said:

I used to be the type to try to UV-saveless every map i played for a good while but man it really isn't cutting it for me anymore lol

 

Like what DuckReconMajor said, I suggest to use saves, especially if you are playing the maps for the first time.

 

But if you really HAVE to beat maps UV-saveless, play them with saves first and make multiple saves (a save before every hard fight or a tricky section). Practice those fights until you become consistent at them and then play the map saveless. You will progress much faster than trying to play a map UV-saveless from the start and repeatedly failing at it.

 

If that still doesn't work, don't feel ashamed of playing them on an easier difficulty. Afterall, the UV difficulty of modern wads is often designed for experienced folks who are very good at the game. Eviternity is actually one of the easier wads in this aspect (except for the last few maps).

Edited October 16, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Azure_Horror]

While Eviternity is a great example of a WAD with a smooth difficulty curve, I would not call it very friendly to blind UV runs. At the very least, maps 13, 14, 18, 29 have both nasty setpiece fights and hard, prolonged starts. There are also maps 32 and 19, which are super long, and the whole map 30 thing, with Archangelos being one big pile of nasty surprises.

9 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Eviternity is actually one of the easier wads in this aspect (except for the last few maps).

And except for map19, I presume? Despite relatively easy fights, this monster looks really soul-crushing to no-save on UV, especially going blind.

 

Overall, many WADs seem to include sudden difficulty spikes, it does not depend on the realese date that much. For example, Ancient Aliens sure loves going from 0 to 150% in intensity on a whim, multiple times per map. Valiant has that famous cramped cyberdemon fight at the end of map 10, and lots of kamikaze ambushes later. Going Down is chaotic evil by design. All those WADs are older than Eviternity.

 

1 hour ago, MattFright said:

But i didn't want to just come here and complain! For one, i wanted to ask how many other people have felt this as well (because i honestly have no idea), and if there's anything i can do to enjoy those if i'm the one doing something wrong. Saving right before those fights, for one, is something that seems to help others but doesn't seem to be helping me at all, though.

- First things first, if the fight is hard and long, saving midfight could be very helpful to scout ahead. Moreover, I suggest to IDDQD a fight, if it gives you enough trouble. Just having a base idea about the fight structure helps a lot.

- Secondly, I recommend you to play ancient aliens on UV (with saves!). It is a very beautiful WAD with lots and lots of creative and nasty fights. Try to complete most of the maps, but do hesitate to skip a map, if it is not fun to play or if it gives you too much trouble. Playing Ancient Aliens in such mode greatly improved my skills.
 

[Egg Boy]

I think “difficulty spikes” are a good thing in the context of doom maps. It can be tiring when a map set just keeps getting harder and harder constantly, having a break map is nice. This is also why you shouldn’t just put all your longest maps at the end of a mega wad. It’s tiring.

[MattFright]

I guess so, but most of what i come across now isn't quite the type that works well, but more the type that throwws 3205820358235 things at you all at once without any time to react, after an otherwise chill or only mildly difficult map. It feels like trying to appeal to one type of player, then suddenly turning a 180 on them with micro slaughter (of the bad kind).

Edited October 16, 2021 by MattFright

[magicsofa]

As a mapper, it takes a lot of self control to not fill every space with monsters. And, as you progress through map slots, you feel the constant urge to one-up the previous map. It's very difficult to hold back all those epic battles in your mind. At least, that's how I feel. One thing that helps is having Doom 1 style episodes, which encourage a mental reset at each episode beginning. Even though there's no actual need for it - your E2M1 could hand out all the weapons and just go ham - it gets you to think "okay, this is Level 1 again, not Level 10." With 30 levels in a row however, it's easy to just ramp up, and up, and up forever.

 

Another aspect to this is with the bestiary and weaponry, while mapping you want to make use of everything available. Usually people really hold it back for MAP01 - understandably, they want to suck you in with a short, fun level, using mostly fodder enemies and maybe some pinkies or mid-tier enemies in very small numbers. You want your player to get the satisfaction of completing the level without spending a huge amount of time. Then, as soon as you get to MAP02, you're ready to create a bigger and more complex layout, and already thinking about which monsters to add into the mix. Maybe some chaingunners. Maybe the traps should be a little more challenging. Suddenly we're on MAP03, and already can't help ourselves from using revenant, mancubus, arachnotron... gotta turn up the heat! More guns! More enemies! More traps! More keys!

I don't really think this is an exceptionally new phenomenon though. Even Doom 2 itself doles out all of the weapons and enemies pretty quickly, with the Archvile being the last reveal on map 11. I think it's just a natural challenge in designing a campaign, our affinity for instant gratification goes against the slow burn progression that might make for a more balanced result.

[ReaperAA]

2 hours ago, Azure_Horror said:

And except for map19, I presume? Despite relatively easy fights, this monster looks really soul-crushing to no-save on UV, especially going blind.

 

That one is more because of its length, though it does have a few tricky moments. Moments that involve the annihilators (like the RL fight). Once you practise the 3 or 4 of the tough fights in the map, the rest is not that hard. I have actually beaten the map saveless a few times.

 

Map32 is similar in the sense. Though unlike map19, I have not beaten map32 saveless (mainly because I haven't attempted it much)

Edited October 16, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Azure_Horror]

On 10/16/2021 at 6:22 PM, MattFright said:

I guess so, but most of what i come across now isn't quite the type that works well, but more the type that throwws 3205820358235 things at you all at once without any time to react, after an otherwise chill or only mildly difficult map. It feels like trying to appeal to one type of player, then suddenly turning a 180 on them with micro slaughter (of the bad kind).

 

Yeah, such style clashes are pretty jarring. But I feel like in more modern megawads such moments become less frequent.

When I think about "3205820358235 things all at once, after an otherwise chill map", two maps come to my mind:

- Alien Vendetta map 16. "Lol, you're not supposed to use plasma rifle, because you need to save plasma for BFG mini-slaughter, lol". That "Revenant Horde into Cyberdemon Marathon" combo completely clashes with Evilution-like beginning of the map.

- Ancient Aliens map 19. The map overall is not easy, but it is relatively slow-paced. Until you get to the yellow key fight, that is. Because Yellow key platform contains a micro-slaughter encounter, completely with restricted space, hell noble crowd, random projectiles from elsewhere, and even a cyberdemon! And, to top it off, there are 4 (!) archviles waiting for you after you leave the platform!

 

Lets imagine that some hypothetical WAD (let's call it "2022 Evil Aliens") has a clear references to both those maps in its first episode. Would such WAD count as example of sudden difficulty spike?

 

[Bauul]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:31 AM, MattFright said:

increasingly so in big releases lately

 

I'd be curious to know which new releases you specifically mean?

 

It could be a wider trend, or it could be just bad luck that the specific mapsets you've been playing since Eviternity all feature early difficulty spikes.

[RonLivingston]

I understand how difficult map19 of final doom return of the evil god is, but it can be easy if you picked up the invulnerability sphere before going to the exit in map18. But map25 on 10 sectors 2 is awfully long that you have to trek through the whole maze to get to the exit

Edited October 18, 2021 by RonLivingston

[DarkIceCyclone]

I must actually thank everyone for this thread being created right on time. I noticed a few mistakes in my own map thanks to this thread, so cheers. 

 Anyway I'm creating my first map and I thought I may be able to share my thought proccess on this.

I'm quite noob in the gameplay as well, hell, recently learned strafe running and I still can't do it at all. 

However, that said, when you try to create a map that's both difficult and fun, watch youtubers and other map makers, and try to incorporate different ideas into same map, or wad, you end up with massive variations in difficulty. There is also the time wasted if you don't testrun the maps enough, but also the fear of making the map or even wad too easy. 

So it ends up with making a few difficult places only to realize that completing them can be a pain in the ass.

 

then there is the other side: if you test your map long enough and don't ask anyone else to test it and give feedback, you end up being stuck in your own gameplay, your own curve and not noticing what may be frustrating to other players. At one point, you also forget the pacing. 

And then ofcourse, there is the fact that most maps take multiple days to create. If you don't have the map planned out and checklists upon checklists, you end up running into a kneejerk vicious cicle of trying to make the map better, but inadvertantly ruining the flow of the map just for the sake of either difficulty or balance. I believe the same can be said for whole megawads. 

 

 

One thing to keep in mind though, if you make a megawad with 20 or 30 maps or even more, you're bound to not be able to notice the minor differences that other players, especially casual player would notice.  It's the same when you make whole campaigns in red alert 2. one map can be stupidly difficult just because of 1 number being too high by a decimal point. In here, while I don't know nothing about scripts yet, enemy numbers wise, it can be just 1 archvile too much or 1 square too little room. 

I also noticed that when I create for my own enjoyment, I tend to create one type of maps. When I start to make a project however, i start pushing my limits and as a result, make far more mistakes I need to later repair or don't even notice after hundreds of playthroughs.

 

TL;DR: A mix of trying new ideas, multiple runs of your own maps ending up with you knowing the ins and outs of that map and trying to create something that's even above your own skill level, be it as a mapper or as a player, could lead to the results you're seeing. 

 

Since I've literally not released a single map yet, all I can offer is an info on my thought proccess.