Judgment: Retrial - 34 Map MBF21 Megawad (/idgames - 5/25/2024)

[George90]

I actually started playing the original Judgment not too long ago and I've finished the first two episodes. Should I just continue on or better restart my playthrough with the Retrial version? I'm not exactly sure what to do lol.

 

[Rayziik]

2 hours ago, George90 said:

I actually started playing the original Judgment not too long ago and I've finished the first two episodes. Should I just continue on or better restart my playthrough with the Retrial version? I'm not exactly sure what to do lol.

 

 

You could grab the new version and continue from episode 3 honestly. Most of the biggest changes are in the later episodes or involve the monsters/weapons.

[George90]

2 hours ago, Rayziik said:

 

You could grab the new version and continue from episode 3 honestly. Most of the biggest changes are in the later episodes or involve the monsters/weapons.

Alright, will do. Thanks for the reply!

[thewhateverdude]

This is one of the best WADs I ever played. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by thewhateverdude

[Rayziik]

Hi, new RC since there's been a bit of play-testing and such. Mostly co-op related stuff, but a few minor tweaks in general.

 

In order to access the new difficulties, update DSDA to 0.27.5!

 

RC2: (1/4/2024)

 

-New difficulty menu (added in RC1.1)

-Multiple maps were updated to better facilitate true co-op play

-Multiple maps had small graphical errors fixed (lighting, improper fake floors, texture offsets, etc.)

-Fixed monsters not staying awake in true co-op play on a few maps (MAP02 in particular)

-The shaman's upgraded missile attack's tracking ability was nerfed a little bit

-A missing Impact Gauntlet on MAP17 was found!

-Boss monster triggers that worked slowly or unintuitively were updated (MAP19 in particular)

 

= Downloads:

 

Judgment: Retrial - RC2 (1/4/2024) • Mirror

[Firedust]

Heya! Started my playthrough on many violence.

I have a question. There are some really dark monochrome demons in GZDoom 4.11.3. Is that how they're supposed to look? It seems it's an engine issue. If it is, I'll report it in the appropriate thread.

EDIT: Map 4, https://prnt.sc/wUO9YaBfqHyE two monsters inside one another in a teleporter closet (ooh kinky)

EDIT 2: Map 9, https://prnt.sc/zQcBqAATQrVr once again monsters stuck

EDIT 3: Map 17, https://prnt.sc/OeZ4wvuE1mMn an oopsie with the two HKs in the teleporter closet

EDIT 4: Map 21, https://prnt.sc/v6TkmM33rsdc more monsters stuck

Edited January 7 by Firedust

[Rayziik]

Those are just updated specters, they're intended to look that way! They have a solid color sprite and are tagged translucent instead of having the normal fuzzy effect.

[Firedust]

50 minutes ago, Rayziik said:

Those are just updated specters, they're intended to look that way! They have a solid color sprite and are tagged translucent instead of having the normal fuzzy effect.

They aren't translucent though! I will edit my post above for any other bugs I find so as not to clog up the thread :)

Loving the coop difficulty so far btw - I've always felt the original UV from the 2021 wad was a bit low in monster count. We'll see how violent it'll get toward the end :3
Currently, on map 8.

[George90]

On MAP09 you can softlock yourself in the green acid right at this spot (RC2):

 

 

[Rayziik]

On 1/6/2024 at 11:29 AM, Firedust said:

They aren't translucent though! I will edit my post above for any other bugs I find so as not to clog up the thread :)

 

Yea I tested this and they don't appear as they should. It must be different handling on GZDoom.

 

On 1/6/2024 at 6:35 AM, Firedust said:

EDIT: Map 4, https://prnt.sc/wUO9YaBfqHyE two monsters inside one another in a teleporter closet (ooh kinky)

EDIT 2: Map 9, https://prnt.sc/zQcBqAATQrVr once again monsters stuck

...

EDIT 4: Map 21, https://prnt.sc/v6TkmM33rsdc more monsters stuck

 

These should all be fine. Some monsters are tagged as multiplayer only, and the others will only appear in single player. Is this behavior different on GZDoom and making them stuck or not teleport into the map?

 

On 1/6/2024 at 6:35 AM, Firedust said:

EDIT 3: Map 17, https://prnt.sc/OeZ4wvuE1mMn an oopsie with the two HKs in the teleporter closet

 

Looks like a linedef skip scenario, which is rather uncommon. I can build a fail-safe mechanism for this closet so they can get out.

 

4 hours ago, George90 said:

On MAP09 you can softlock yourself in the green acid right at this spot (RC2):

 

You can *technically* get out of that spot with a glide, but I will move the pillar over slightly to make it easier to escape.

[Firedust]

2 hours ago, Rayziik said:

These should all be fine. Some monsters are tagged as multiplayer only, and the others will only appear in single player. Is this behavior different on GZDoom and making them stuck or not teleport into the map?

I should've posted screenshots from the actual maps. I was only posting them from UDB due to personal convenience. These stuck monsters appear in coop, all of them. They are inside each other in closets and thus are unable to move. If you don't believe me, boot up any of those maps on many violence and no clip into the problematic closet.
Here's the same thing I posted earlier from map 4: https://prnt.sc/4XtOzB2lA0Q3
The same case is true elsewhere.

Edited January 8 by Firedust

[Rayziik]

20 hours ago, Firedust said:

I should've posted screenshots from the actual maps. I was only posting them from UDB due to personal convenience. These stuck monsters appear in coop, all of them. They are inside each other in closets and thus are unable to move. If you don't believe me, boot up any of those maps on many violence and no clip into the problematic closet.
Here's the same thing I posted earlier from map 4: https://prnt.sc/4XtOzB2lA0Q3
The same case is true elsewhere.

 

Did some investigating, this seems to also be mishandling by GZDoom. The monsters marked "Not Cooperative" should not be spawning on mega-violence, and yet they are. Maybe worth it to mention alongside the specters appearing opaque when they should be showing translucent.

[Shepardus]

2 hours ago, Rayziik said:

 

Did some investigating, this seems to also be mishandling by GZDoom. The monsters marked "Not Cooperative" should not be spawning on mega-violence, and yet they are. Maybe worth it to mention alongside the specters appearing opaque when they should be showing translucent.

The description for SpawnMulti says that it'll spawn multiplayer-only things but doesn't say anything about not spawning singleplayer-only things. GZDoom interprets this to mean spawning both singleplayer and coop things, but not deathmatch-only things (the same is true with the "always spawn multiplayer objects" gameplay flag), while dsda-doom spawns only coop things, like the -coop_spawns parameter. dsda-doom's interpretation seems more useful to me, even if GZDoom's is more literal.

 

Strangely, when playing a Hexen-format map in dsda-doom, -coop_spawns will spawn both singleplayer and coop-flagged items, which seems like a bug to me.

[Firedust]

Not sure if this is a GZDoom specific bug, but in map 28 when you lower the bars leading the RL, the bars themselves lower, but there's still an invisible wall there preventing the player from moving past that point.

Also, one of the baddies slipped through the teleporter: https://prnt.sc/qxrJUKKDWqIS

Edited January 11 by Firedust

[Rayziik]

Another RC update, more bug-fixes and some balance changes. Here's a short list:

 

-More maps were updated to better facilitate true co-op play

-Multiple instances of monsters being stuck together or line-skipping teleporters in some ports should be fixed

-Problematic monster closets now have failsafe systems in place so monsters will enter the maps eventually

-MAP06 has extra dogs for each player in the game

-MAP11 pacifist switches will be hidden until ready to use, and will hide themselves when they're no longer needed

-MAP14 had geometry changes by the blue key, and some of the fights happen at different times

-MAP32 has a few more megaspheres you can grab once you open the doors to the exit

-A handful of maps have had a secret added to them

-Some more visual errors in some maps are now fixed

-Probably a bunch of other small things I forgot to write down...

 

For the best experience use DSDA-Doom, as I can guarantee the maps behave properly in that port. Other ports might experience small differences due to different handling of flags and physics.

 

 

Aside from anymore bugs that pop up, there's one more significant addition I want to include before finalizing the wad. 

 

 

= Downloads:

 

Judgment: Retrial - RC3 (1/31/2024) • Mirror

[DreadWanderer]

I've been holding off on playing this until the full release but both the original Judgment and Retrial have been on my radar for some time now. I've watched a bit of gameplay footage from the OG and it blows my mind what MBF21 can do, a great showcase for that. Question for Rayziik - since this is not a sequel and more of a remaster, do you recommend Retrial for first-time players?

[Rayziik]

3 hours ago, DreadWanderer said:

 ... Question for Rayziik - since this is not a sequel and more of a remaster, do you recommend Retrial for first-time players?

 

I would recommend skipping the original if you hadn't played it before. The majority of the content is the same between the two, and the changes and bugfixes that I did make in Retrial should (at least in my opinion) make for the better experience.

[DreadWanderer]

48 minutes ago, Rayziik said:

 

I would recommend skipping the original if you hadn't played it before. The majority of the content is the same between the two, and the changes and bugfixes that I did make in Retrial should (at least in my opinion) make for the better experience.

 

Understood, thank you.

[CacoKnight]

Fantastic wad! Downloaded months ago and forgot about it, redownloaded today and keeping it.

[DreadWanderer]

2 hours ago, CacoKnight said:

Fantastic wad! Downloaded months ago and forgot about it, redownloaded today and keeping it.

 

I've only played a couple of maps and really liked what I saw, but I'll be damned if the Mega-Violence difficulty isn't punishing. Very full of baddies and not a lot of ammo to go around. I feel the need to ask @Rayziik a couple of questions:

 

1. Is Mega-Violence sort of equivalent to UV Plus?

2. What is the difference between Nightmare and Ultra-Nightmare?

 

Thanks.

[Rayziik]

On 3/9/2024 at 5:50 AM, CacoKnight said:

Fantastic wad! Downloaded months ago and forgot about it, redownloaded today and keeping it.

 

Thanks for playing, glad you enjoyed!

 

-

 

On 3/9/2024 at 8:38 AM, DreadWanderer said:

1. Is Mega-Violence sort of equivalent to UV Plus?

 

Mega-Violence is the same as Ultra-Violence with the "-coop_spawns" parameter added onto the command line. This means that the monsters and other objects that would only spawn in cooperative mode will now appear in single-player. It's not the same as the 'official' UV+ since 'fast monsters' is not also enabled.

 

On 3/9/2024 at 8:38 AM, DreadWanderer said:

2. What is the difference between Nightmare and Ultra-Nightmare?

 

Ultra-Nightmare is the same as Mega-Violence, although now the monsters will behave like they do on Nightmare, meaning that 'fast monsters' is active and that they will respawn after some amount of time after they're killed.

 

When it comes to resource balance on both of the new difficulties, I tested MV in a way that is more similar to the original release's UV: ammo and health management requires more strict consideration, accuracy is very important, and dodging/avoiding/minimizing damage taken is critical. The balancing may also be a bit silly on some maps because they were originally designed in this way for multiple players in cooperative, and I didn't cut back on most maps for the single-player balance in order to preserve the fun in cooperative play.

[DreadWanderer]

@Rayziik thanks a lot for your answer!

[Insaneprophet]

Im really impressed with this set. Its giving me strong Avactor and Azazels Second Decent vibes. Prolly because of the custom textures and demons for the first and the many many lock in fights for the second because outside of those things, this really is its own unique wad. But hey, I believe those were both caco award winners so if that is what Im reminded of than you are keeping good company. I believe Im up to map 9, and have found one secret map (33), and some of these level are just wonderfully fun. There are some areas of some lvls that are a bit blocky and square but the combat, pacing and puzzles over come that draw back, esspecially when everything else is gorgeous. The secrets are like the bane of my existance as more often than not I find myself missing about half of them but thr ones I am finding are clever as hell (pun intended.) Anywho thanks for making and sharung this, Im glad it got bumped and came to my attention. 😀

Edited March 10 by Insaneprophet

[Rayziik]

Been a little while. Finally sat down and knocked out the last few things, so now this can be considered final. Download links have been updated one last time.

 

The main change concerns all the maps that originally had death exits: there are now alternative conditional exits that are not death exits, which should open up strategies for D2ALL runs and continuous play.

 

Otherwise, there's only a handful of other changes since RC3.

 

-A few maps had geometry changed to give better performance

-Fixed some possible softlocks in MAP32 and MAP34

-Adjusted the monster and item composition in MAP32 and MAP34

-Doggo can't softlock the secret in MAP34 anymore

-Added some health and ammo to various maps, mostly the later ones

 

 

As a reminder, use dsda-doom 0.27.5 (or newer) for the best experience.

When recording demos, the new numbers for skill levels are:

• 4 for Ultra-Violence
• 5 for Mega-Violence
• 6 for Nightmare
• 7 for Ultra-Nightmare

 

If you played the original, I recommend a play-through on Mega-Violence for a new and more challenging experience. For ports other than dsda-doom, enable cooperative thing spawns to achieve the same/similar settings.

 

 

=  Downloads:

Judgment: Retrial - Final (5/25/2024) • Mirror • /idgames

 

-

 

Thanks for playing.

Edited June 9 by Rayziik

[NightFright]

Was there any particular reason why offsets of some HUD keys (STKEYS0/2/3/5/6/8) were changed? The way they are now, their alignments get screwed up in the Boom fullscreen HUD, e.g. in Woof!.

 

Update:

Figured it out. The positions of the red and blue keys are switched on the statusbar. Which raises the inevitable question: Why? What is it good for? Besides causing issues with fullscreen HUDs, I mean.

Edited June 17 by NightFright

[Rayziik]

14 hours ago, NightFright said:

Which raises the inevitable question: Why? What is it good for? Besides causing issues with fullscreen HUDs, I mean. 

 

One of the biggest complaints was that the red key was not visible on the status bar compared to the other two, and some were having trouble distinguishing whether they had it or not at a glance. Swapping the key positions and a small change to the status bar was done to fix that.

The fullscreen HUD functions fine in dsda-doom as far as I can tell, maybe a change can be made in Woof to remove the offsets affecting the key positions when using the fullscreen HUD.

[NightFright]

It's breaking the Boom HUD in PrBoom+ as well, a port which is unlikely to receive any further updates, so unfortunately port adjustments are not a cure which can be applied universally. Right now one would have to make a small patch wad which restores the original offsets for the affected assets.

 

An alternate approach would have been to rather tweak the statusbar, e.g. with some darker background squares to improve the visibility of those keys.

Edited June 18 by NightFright

[Shepardus]

PrBoom+ isn't MBF21 compatible anyway, so the HUD is the least of the problems you'll have running Judgment in that port.

[NightFright]

I've received feedback from the Woof! authors that this won't be solved through a port fix. Instead you should place a wad with adjusted graphics into your autoload\judgmentrt.wad folder. I have created this patch file and provide it here, in case there's anyone else who wants to play with the Boom fullscreen HUD.

 

judgmentrt_keyfix.zip

 

In the meantime, I've noticed the wide statusbar from the original release has some colorization issues in Retrial (manifesting in darker colors and some weird purple/blue pixels), probably due to some palette adjustments. Here's a new version adressing that issue.

 

judgmentrt_wide.zip

Edited June 18 by NightFright