wallabra Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, dpJudas said: I am not talking about which sound daemon or audio system is the best. In fact, I don't really care - for my sound needs even 1997's Linux where I opened /dev/dsp worked just fine for the kind of audio I do. But what I do care about is that once I wrote a program on my Linux box that successfully opens the user's default audio output that it then also works on your Linux desktop distribution of choice. That used to not be the case for a very, very long time. Is it the case now? Honestly I don't know, but so far I haven't heard about anyone not getting sound when I use libalsa2 - that's why I assume this issue has finally been resolved. What I understand you're saying is that there are lots of implementations of audio interfaces. Well, duh, Windows has them too. WASAPI, DirectSound, the list goes on but I'm not well-versed in Windows. That's literally why abstraction libraries exist, though. SDL abstracts away all of the windowing backends, like X or Wayland, and lets you just use the same interface. That's not an argument against Linux. There is nothing inherently GNU/Linux about the status quo as seen here. Quote For example, when I experimented with using LLVM in GZDoom the Linux packages for LLVM were completely broken on several mainstream Linux desktop distributions. It takes incredible little for this entire centralized package management idea to fall apart once you actually use it as an actual C++ developer. a) C++ is bad. b) GCC is bad. c) The issue is that distributions have their own schedules for updating repo packages, and some are terribly incompetent at it, updating packages partially and leaving broken dependencies. Use a good distro, don't give the bad ones publicity or userbase. 25 minutes ago, dpJudas said: Keep in mind I ported the GZDoom JIT to Linux (this included implementing the ELF .eh_frame DWARF standard at the lowest level for call stacks to work). I ported UDB to Linux. It's asmjit's fault if it doesn't handle program counter call stacks. You wrote your own machine code compiler, and that is an extremely difficult task, and one that absolutely behooves me in how insane an undertaking it must have been. But if I am being 100% sincere (and honestly dismissive of that achievement because emotion gets in the way of sincerity and impartiality), the ideal solution would be to instead reuse an existing backend, like LLVM, because separation of concerns. Now, ZScript bytecode / machine code doesn't even get an optimization pass. And that's because it shouldn't - it should not be GZDoom's responsibility, and the fact this is all mixed together behooves me. Quote Speaking of the UDB one, the mono packages are all hopelessly out of date in most of the distros out there - another one of those Linux not ready for the average non-technical user. Imagine your mom and you try explain to her how to install UDB and you start out with "First you need to add a package manager source with this URL..." - good luck with that! a) Mono sucks. .NET Core is okay but I couldn't get it working either. b) Come to think of it, just avoid .NET. It took way too long to care about Linux, so it is no surprise that it doesn't work well under Linux. Yes, something does have to be tailored to Linux in order to work in Linux, just as something has to be tailored to MacOS in order to work in MacOS, or tailored to System 7 in order to work in System 7. Who woulda thunk. And even still, what we do have is already miles better than what we had two or three years ago. Again, the ecosystem is constantly changing, and someday .NET - and Ultimate Doom Builder - will both be first-class citizens in their full glories. c) Ubuntu is stupid, adding PPAs is a terrible approach to making software available. With this URL... If UDB is not available in the distro's repositories, there are still many other ways to be able to make them available through the extant, standard and good package management system. It is Ubuntu's fault for implement PPAs in a not-at-all transparent way, but also a way that is insecure, and potentially harmful, plus PPA packages tend to be outdated anyway. Arch Linux's AUR is the success story to compare to. It realized you can't really have "PPAs" without having to either distribute sources, or, automatically building them in a server somewhere - which is what Chaotic AUR does. At least this eliminates the outdatedness. However, it is still not much easier than simply adding a PPA URL - it's in fact harder. But at least, it's not integrated into the system's package manager utility, and therefore it does not preclude a community effort to eventually spring up to make the Chaotic AUR packages accessible for anyone with even an iota of computer literacy. 8 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said: The real ignorance lies in you totally ignoring and outright dismissing the very real issues people have with Linux. As long as it remains such a fragmented platform it's not a good target to develop software for. And as long as the common distribution method of its software does not change it will remain a very fragmented and very volatile platform. The issue is that those issues are wrongly and unjustly attributed to Linux itself. In the sense we're using the word, "Linux" isn't even a single thing. It's a compendium of different components; the kernel, the graphical environment, the userspace system, and every single userspace program with its very own development group and its very own release schedule. And, at the end of the day, Linux's flaws are dwarved by its strengths. It's always more worth to use Linux, or BSD or some other copyfree or copyleft OS (ew, copyleft), than Windows or Mac OS, if you have even a little bit of time and patience. (If you don't, that's because you've been unjustly affected by capitalism.) Instead of being defeatist, developers should be incentivized to fix those flaws to make Linux reach a broader audience. And when it does reach a broader audience, more people will be using it and giving bug reports so more can be fixed. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. Everything has issues. The difference is that, with Linux, anyone has the freedom to come forth and fix them. The fragmentation of Linux is in a way both a necessity and a direct consequence of software freedom. I'd take that over Windows. And while software distribution might be a bit more of a headache, this is made for by having software development be stupidly easy. There are lots of lightweight alternatives to GCC or Clang, like TCC. And most things, are just one command or two away from being installed. Like choosenim for Nim, or rustup for Rust, or ohmyzsh for Zsh. So some things are actually easier to install and distribute. What has to be done is to keep the fragmentation whilst abstracting it through community-maintained interfaces that are modular, extensible, and above all, preserve the freedom. Linux is volatile because communities are volatile. This volatility is not the end of the world. Quote So why is Linux then still stuck in that tiny niche of people who are highly knowledgeable in tech matters? Because everyone is too damn thick-skinned and dogged and they think everything is already perfect. Simply because Linux is already better than Windows or Mac for what it was made for (tech-related stuff), doesn't mean it doesn't need further change, iteration and improvement. Some of the staples of Linux have been around for decades. Heck, even Wayland is starting to get grey hair at this point. Just wait till it is registered in the sexual offenders list as it abuses new technologies like all old, mature software that existed before it did. Heck, someone should get GCC in jail. Despicable. What I don't like is the stagnancy of the core. At least there are still new initiatives every now and then, like OpenRC. At the end of the day, I just want the userspace to be substituted. The kernel is very good, but we need to replace the userspace side of things. Maybe even knock the GNU off GNU/Linux. GNU sucks. They're arrogant and part of the reason we're still behind in userbase and acecssibility. 11 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said: The second big problem is the current user base who seems to lack any and all understanding why certain things need to be rethought. Yes, primarily that's people like you and ducon, but I've had my run ins with some that are even ten times worse. Not fun for average Joes. Yes, I realize I am being arrogant. And I apologize for that. But I agree things do need to be replaced and rethought. Dbus is underrated, but I absolutely don't like X, or PulseAudio, or the systemd ecosystem (not the init system! The other modules are bad! Just because they're optional doesn't exonerate them from flaw!) I apologize if any of this is closed-minded or overly political. Honestly, communitarian software development is political. There comes a point where subjectivity comes in, and then all objective goal and method and impeccability goes poof. No more. At best a fracture is made (those are not bad things) and eventually people make glue code or an interface/API library. At worst, everything stagnates and freezes. Hello, X.org?! What I'm trying to say, is that Linux is still a very considerable option, even if it's still not all that accessible. It's not worse than its alternatives just because average Joes may have trouble with it. What is necessary is to see things under new perspectives, and to impartially compare the extent of the flaws between Windows, Mac and Linux. Oh wait, we can't see the extent of the bugs in the Windows userspace code. Oh well. Edited September 27, 2021 by Gustavo6046 0 Share this post Link to post
dpJudas Posted September 27, 2021 1 minute ago, Gustavo6046 said: Well, duh, Windows has them too. WASAPI, DirectSound, the list goes on but I'm not well-versed in Windows. That's literally why abstraction libraries exist, though. SDL abstracts away all of the windowing backends, like X or Wayland, and lets you just use the same interface. No matter which of the Windows APIs you use they all work. Even if you use the oldest of old. Meanwhile the sound daemons were all incompatible with each other on Linux. You really should study some Linux history. Also, thank you for informing me about SDL existing! I did not know that! (I might be slightly sarcastic here) 9 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: a) C++ is bad. As so it is the language's fault that Linux installs things into /usr/lib and /usr/include. Got it. 9 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: It's asmjit's fault if it doesn't handle program counter call stacks. If I had solved this problem by updating asmjit then all the distro packages of asmjit would be out of date. Oh you want me to delay the release of they product for years while we wait for new packages? 11 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: You wrote your own machine code compiler, and that is an extremely difficult task, and one that absolutely behooves me in how insane an undertaking it must have been. But if I am being 100% sincere (and honestly dismissive of that achievement because emotion gets in the way of sincerity and impartiality), the ideal solution would be to instead reuse an existing backend, like LLVM, because separation of concerns. Now, ZScript bytecode / machine code doesn't even get an optimization pass. And that's because it shouldn't - it should not be GZDoom's responsibility, and the fact this is all mixed together behooves me. The reason I didn't use LLVM in the first place was because the Linux LLVM distro packages were broken. I already told you that. Oh you want me to delay the release of the product for years while we wait for new packages? Got it. 12 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: a) Mono sucks. .NET Core is okay but I couldn't get it working either. b) Come to think of it, just avoid .NET. OK, so it isn't just C++ that sucks. It is also C#. Seems whatever failing Linux has it is always someone else fault. Probably worth mentioning that I didn't choose the languages for UDB. All I did was try to help out Linux get more software. You're right I should probably stop doing that. 15 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: If UDB is not available in the distro's repositories It isn't UDB that is not available (although if you do want that from the official sources you once again have to wait years). I'm talking about the dependency packages. 0 Share this post Link to post
wallabra Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, dpJudas said: No matter which of the Windows APIs you use they all work. Even if you use the oldest of old. Meanwhile the sound daemons were all incompatible with each other on Linux. You really should study some Linux history. Also, thank you for informing me about SDL existing! I did not know that! (I might be slightly sarcastic here) Uhhhhhh... All the Linux ones work too. This really, really, really is a fallacious and broken argument. You're conflating inter-compatibility with infra-compatibility; APIs playing nice together, and APIs playing nice at all with software on top. And WASAPI and DirectSound are only even remotely compatible with each other because they're both in a way the same project, Windows, but a Linux environment is not at all monolithic like that, which has its pros and cons. 51 minutes ago, dpJudas said: As so it is the language's fault that Linux installs things into /usr/lib and /usr/include. Got it. No, you're putting words in my mouth. That which I wrote was entirely a side note and not relevant to software distribution. Still, C++ is bloaty. 51 minutes ago, dpJudas said: If I had solved this problem by updating asmjit then all the distro packages of asmjit would be out of date. Oh you want me to delay the release of they product for years while we wait for new packages? No, this problem isn't in asmjit; it's in GZDoom, and in the choices made. At least make the bytecode-that-compiles-to-machine-code part of GZDoom a separate project, kinda like ZMusic. Then at the very least there will be a separation of concerns. Still, machine code compilation already exists. I'm starting to get worked up because the points you bring up are dodgy and you keep moving the goalposts (which I totally absolutely irrefutably don't lmao oh wait oops). 51 minutes ago, dpJudas said: The reason I didn't use LLVM in the first place was because the Linux LLVM distro packages were broken. I already told you that. Oh you want me to delay the release of the product for years while we wait for new packages? Got it. Then you should give yourself the freedom to say say "fuck those distros". They don't deserve to host and be bestowed upon the gargantuan effort and achievement of you and the rest of the GZDoom developer team. You don't have to delay the release. If distros can't catch up, shame on them. It's their fault. Upstream should be concerned with upstream affairs, not distro affairs. Then if someone complains in the bug tracker, just tell them to complain to their shitty distro instead. Sigh. 51 minutes ago, dpJudas said: OK, so it isn't just C++ that sucks. It is also C#. Seems whatever failing Linux has it is always someone else fault. Funny you say that, Linux also sucks, and so does X.org, and to an extent the available Wayland compositors also suck. PulseAudio sucks because it's inefficient and buggy. JACK sucks because it's a pain to set up and most userspace programs don't support it. Nevermind – most userspace programs suck, nay, all userspace programs suck, by virtue of being part of a userspace that sucks. Windows sucks because it's full of extra hoops and overcomplicated software design, and so does Mac OS because it's a walled garden. Consoles also suck for being walled garden, same goes for Android and especially very much so Mac OS. FreeBSD sucks because they can't maintain their packages without introducing zillions of 0 days and they do zero auditing. OpenBSD is actually pretty decent but sadly anything decent is already far behind because it cannot support software for the major suckers - even FreeBSD has a Linux compatibility thing which OpenBSD doesn't. Also, C# sucks because all it is is Java but diametrically opposite decisions to every other decision Java did that doesn't involve the gist of using such language to begin with. Some are good and some are bad and not all things diametrically opposite to Java are good and not all things similar to Java are bad. Java still sucks because it lends itself to hyper-autistic nerds like myself being extreme in the pursuit of software design porn and let programmers go ham with factories of factories - it's the Industrial Revolution all over again. Also, Python sucks because of its contrived, messy design, and Guido van Rossum's whimsical and aimless insistency with doing things his way. Turns out Benevolent Dictator For Life wasn't all that good for us. Also, JavaScript kinda sucks because it's way too freeform, but if you go way too little freeform you also start to suck because then the programming language's constraints start to become needless obstacles in software design. The only assembly I realistically see myself writing is 6502 assembly. C isn't all that good, it's way more sensible than C++ for the vast majority of things simply by virtue of being a subset and requiring more attention from the developer (ergo, less chance for sneaky fuck ups to pop up), but it's still at its core a PDP-11 programming language and not a modern processor one. Heck, the x86 architecture sucks because it's so CISC it gives the people who insist to stick to assembly cerebrum cancer just so they can fit all of the raw unprocessed nonsense they have to learn in order to get a simple calculator expression parser or raytracing subroutine to work. I could go on and on, but that is not the point. You see, everything sucks. It is an unavoidable fact of life that everything is flawed and imperfect. Instead of defeatism, we must learn to look up to those flaws and assume a mentality that motivates us to fix them, to make a better world. Okay, now we can deploy strategic warheads on the Intel headquarters. Quote Probably worth mentioning that I didn't choose the languages for UDB. Probably also worth mentioning that this is not about you. You're not under attack, lower the god damn shields and stop shouting why are we all shouting oh dear we're all gonna die. Quote All I did was try to help out Linux get more software. You're right I should probably stop doing that. Don't help out Linux. Let Linux help itself. You do your part. They do their part. That's the thing. 51 minutes ago, dpJudas said: It isn't UDB that is not available (although if you do want that from the official sources you once again have to wait years). I'm talking about the dependency packages. I didn't say it was. UDB was not made for Linux and trying to port it is unlike trying to port Doom because Doom was written in C and C is truly portable, unlike Microsoft Java. It's much of a headache to compile it in Linux and it's not UDB's fault. A lot of it is WinForms, or just Microsoft Java being stupid. What do you mean I have this assembly missing?! I have the entire toolkit installed! It's already the .NET version UDB wants, why do you want a higher major version! MSBuild is stupid! Fuck MSBuild! ....siiiiiiiiigh.... ...deep breathe, Gus. Everything is okay. It's just an online argument. It's not the end of the world. I am Brazilian. I can get all of the goalposts no matter how much they move. Edited September 27, 2021 by Gustavo6046 0 Share this post Link to post
LexiMax Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, dpJudas said: OK, so it isn't just C++ that sucks. It is also C#. Seems whatever failing Linux has it is always someone else fault. No kidding. I don't think most Linux Desktop fans understand how precarious their position is. WSL is more than just a virtual machine, it is an existential threat to Desktop Linux as a whole. There needs to be less patronizing explanations and more open-minded understanding of developers' problems, so developers are willing to port their applications and give people reasons to run Linux on bare metal. Otherwise, the attrition of developer attention and funding behind the Linux Desktop is going to turn into a flood, and in 10 years the only people running Linux on bare metal will either be headless, 10-year-old machines past their expiration date, and neofetchers running hobbyist window managers. Which would be a damn shame, but I mean...we tried to warn them. Edited September 27, 2021 by AlexMax 1 Share this post Link to post
wallabra Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, AlexMax said: I don't think most Linux Desktop fans understand how precarious their position is. WSL is more than just a virtual machine, it is a threat to Desktop Linux as a whole. There needs to be less patronizing explanations and more open-minded understanding of developers' problems, so developers are willing to port their applications and give people reasons to run Linux on bare metal. Otherwise, the attrition of developer attention and funding behind the Linux Desktop is going to turn into a flood, and in 10 years the only people running Linux on bare metal will either be headless, 10-year-old machines past their expiration date, and neofetchers running hobbyist window managers. Which would be a damn shame, but I mean...we tried to warn them. My machine is a bit under 10 years old and I have no idea why it should already be expired. And yet, for its modest modernity, look at how shitty it runs compared to people's modern expectations. Stuttery 60 fps is not good enough - everyone wants 200 fps, 4 K, and smoother than not just regular butter, but butter that has been drawn by anime artists and made specifically to arouse men. Blasted be the accelerated rhythm of hyperconsumerism and capitalism. Edited September 27, 2021 by Gustavo6046 0 Share this post Link to post
Blzut3 Posted September 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Murdoch said: an extension of support for 10 past 2024 Besides pedantically pointing out it's 2025, I will note that since Server 2022 is released based off Windows 10 Microsoft will be patching the Windows 10 code base until 2031. It of course remains to be seen what level of extended support they will offer, but worth noting that given it may be as simple as flipping a switch there's a pretty good chance they'll offer some extended support program. I mean it's basically free money right? 2 hours ago, Gustavo6046 said: LD_LIBRARY_PATH All this discussion about LD_LIBRARY_PATH I guess I should point out again that RPATH and RUNPATH exist as tags in the ELF binary. RPATH set to $ORIGIN behaves like Windows, or if you're playing ball with the FHS you set it to a private directory in /usr/lib (or I guess /opt). If you're shipping software with LD_LIBRARY_PATH shenanigans you're doing something wrong. 1 hour ago, Gustavo6046 said: Also, on the SDL comment, either you were relying on what was already a quirky resampler and were locked to its idioscyncrasies (perspective!), or the SDL 2.0.6 resampler was the quirky one, and even if it is the latter, then chances are someone already posted it in a bug tracker so as to have it fixed by the SDL developers. IIRC it was a little bit of both but mostly an SDL bug. Off hand I don't recall the buggy version of SDL landing into any stable distro at least the Ubuntu build of ECWolf hasn't broken with any Ubuntu release. It was definitely a pain point for rolling distros though. One of the big reasons I like Ubuntu-based distros over the others (including Debian). They seem to be relatively sane on their backwards compatibility. More or less you can expect LTS version N to have the ABIs for releases back to LTS N-2 available (at least for stuff in the main repo). Where as even Debian will only have one version of any given library. Even seen them patch openssl to avoid an ABI break that other distros just took willingly. They haven't been perfect of course, there was a completely avoidable mess in libcurl for I believe it was 18.04 where they broke ABI but didn't change the ABI version in the shared object. The sad part being that the bug was reported during beta, but they didn't address it. Anyway being ideological about open source software isn't going to push the Linux desktop forward, you have to accept that your average user just wants binaries and they want to run the same binary across distribution upgrades. 2 hours ago, Gustavo6046 said: Heck, there is no standardized location for data and config files. SimCity 4 will put some saves in your Documents folder, while mods go in the SimCity 4 install dir's Plugins subdir; meanwhile, other programs keep configs in their own install folder, and some yet put configs in a Roaming subfolder but aren't installed to Roaming, or configs go in a subdir of the user's home folder, or even the whole install. Windows has actually had standards for all of this going back to the 90s (thinking Windows 98 and NT4?). Developers largely ignored them until Vista made it painful to not ignore them. Even still you get vocal users complaining if you follow the Microsoft recommendations. 0 Share this post Link to post
wallabra Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Blzut3 said: Even still you get vocal users complaining if you follow the Microsoft recommendations. I will concede that this is an universal constant. No such thing as a community without thick skins and people being absolutely inertia-ridden when it comes to, I dunno, non-zero change. 3 minutes ago, Blzut3 said: Anyway being ideological about open source software isn't going to push the Linux desktop forward, you have to accept that your average user just wants binaries and they want to run the same binary across distribution upgrades. I get your point, idealism usually loses to practicality. But the thing is, this ideology is what brought Linux up to be such a big thing in the first place. And if something done well in practice can hurt this ideology, there is a concern that it may open holes through which corporations may punch and Linux may bleed. Edited September 27, 2021 by Gustavo6046 0 Share this post Link to post
Graf Zahl Posted September 27, 2021 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: What I understand you're saying is that there are lots of implementations of audio interfaces. Well, duh, Windows has them too. WASAPI, DirectSound, the list goes on but I'm not well-versed in Windows. But they all filter down to the same low level interface that performs the job. And they all *just* work... 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: That's literally why abstraction libraries exist, though. SDL abstracts away all of the windowing backends, like X or Wayland, and lets you just use the same interface. Yay, yet antother dependency. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: c) The issue is that distributions have their own schedules for updating repo packages, Bingo!!! Now we are getting to the core of the problem. I have lost count of the workarounds needed - with CMake in particular - to get stuff working on Linux. Why? Because the packages were old and a Linux user cannot be expected to install a more recent one themselves. So us developers are at the mercy of people whose schedule does not align with our needs - this is not good! 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: a) Mono sucks. .NET Core is okay but I couldn't get it working either. b) Come to think of it, just avoid .NET. We get it, everybody else sucks. Why not make it simple? Ther one unifying constant making everything "suck" is Linux, so by that definition Linux sucks. Case closed! 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: It took way too long to care about Linux, so it is no surprise that it doesn't work well under Linux. Yes, something does have to be tailored to Linux in order to work in Linux, just as something has to be tailored to MacOS in order to work in MacOS, or tailored to System 7 in order to work in System 7. Who woulda thunk. I'd say you just missed the point by a wide margin. Adapting to the OS is one thing - but adapting to weird conventions that have no technical merit and only complicatr things is where developers stop 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: The issue is that those issues are wrongly and unjustly attributed to Linux itself. In the sense we're using the word, "Linux" isn't even a single thing. It's a compendium of different components; the kernel, the graphical environment, the userspace system, and every single userspace program with its very own development group and its very own release schedule. Correct. But it does not matter. To deploy on Linux one has to follow the arcane and geek-focussed conventions that got erected - and those are a constant barrier for entry. And ultimately they are impossible to tear down, because of the community's resistance. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: And, at the end of the day, Linux's flaws are dwarved by its strengths. Says you, but apparently not the majority of potential users. If these flaws were so minor, more users would migrate off Windows, but they don't. If you find out the reasons for this and start a concerted effort to genuinely address them instead of constantly brushing them off - then we may talk again! 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: It's always more worth to use Linux, or BSD or some other copyfree or copyleft OS (ew, copyleft), than Windows or Mac OS, if you have even a little bit of time and patience. (If you don't, that's because you've been unjustly affected by capitalism.) Blah, blah. That "time and patience" is actually the core issue. Aside from the geeks, absolutely nobody - that's the average people *and* the professionals - wants to invest "time and patience" into getting the OS working. They want it *just* to work. Even an overpriced Mac has a better cost/benefit ratio here than Linux/BSD. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: Instead of being defeatist, developers should be incentivized to fix those flaws to make Linux reach a broader audience. How are we supposed to do that if every single time we point out some flaws,we ger dismissed by people like you who turn it into a turf war every single time. Linux feels like some hostile zone inhabited by violent cavemen most of the time. In short: Either we meet in the middle, witb Linux making our lives easier, or we never meet at all. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: And when it does reach a broader audience, more people will be using it and giving bug reports so more can be fixed. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. Even if you erect a 1000 signs saying "vistitors welcome", the visitors won't come if what you provide does not meet their expectations. . 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: Everything has issues. The difference is that, with Linux, anyone has the freedom to come forth and fix them. ... and then facing the problem of a community that does not care and merrily goes on their broken path. May I just say turning "systemd" into a quasi-religious debate? 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: The fragmentation of Linux is in a way both a necessity and a direct consequence of software freedom. I'd take that over Windows. ... and again you ignore the bigger picture for your own pathetic needs. "Thinking big" and "Linux" apparently do not mix. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: And while software distribution might be a bit more of a headache, this is made for by having software development be stupidly easy. There are lots of lightweight alternatives to GCC or Clang, like TCC. And most things, are just one command or two away from being installed. Like choosenim for Nim, or rustup for Rust, or ohmyzsh for Zsh. So some things are actually easier to install and distribute. None of this is part of the problem of *deploying* the finished software. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: Linux is volatile because communities are volatile. This volatility is not the end of the world. The volatilty will forever keep Linux in its current niche. For a mass-market product it is a death blow. 45 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: At the end of the day, I just want the userspace to be substituted. The kernel is very good, but we need to replace the userspace side of things. Maybe even knock the GNU off GNU/Linux. GNU sucks. They're arrogant and part of the reason we're still behind in userbase and acecssibility. Finally we can agree on something. But like I said, the current distribution model also needs to be relegated to an expert option - you need something inherently more robust and contained, and not being tied to a single master repo. 1 Share this post Link to post
LexiMax Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: But the thing is, this ideology is what brought Linux up to be such a big thing in the first place. And if something done well in practice can hurt this ideology, there is a concern that it may open holes through which corporations may punch and Linux may bleed. What is idealogical about not making literally every piece of installed software depend on OS libraries instead of shipping their own? This is just common sense. Heck, it's such common sense that Ubuntu and Red Hat know this is a problem and came up with Snap and Flatpack. Just a few...tiny problems. 1. The Snaps and Flatpaks are competing with distro-provided software instead of supplanting them. Often you can get a piece of software from both, and it's often better from a distro repo because... 2.. Snaps and Flatpaks tend to be poorly packaged, likely because they're nowhere near as popular and the people packaging the software aren't as experienced with the format...or sometimes even the software they're packaging. 3. Snaps and Flatpaks don't always work on non-native distros - which is kind of the entire problem we were hoping to avoid, right? But the most irritating problem.... 4. Snaps and Flatpaks are of course !!!!!!!!yet another!!!!!!!! format war for Linux. 99% of the time there is a single unified Windows installer for software, so why is there yet another distro-specific divide?* Knowing the Linux community, even if one of the formats lost, a hobbyist would fork the distro and bring it back, plus remove systemd because why not bring back another format war while we're at it. *I think you can install the container runtimes on non-native platforms, but again, see 3, sometimes things just don't work or look broken, plus not everybody is willing to do that. Edited September 27, 2021 by AlexMax 1 Share this post Link to post
Edward850 Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gustavo6046 said: a) Mono sucks. .NET Core is okay but I couldn't get it working either. b) Come to think of it, just avoid .NET. The Turok2 master server was made with .NET and is running on .NET Core on some random Linux box. It took me 30 minutes (arguably less) to make and has an uptime of multiple years, I've lost track of when I even needed to last look at it. I'm only even contemplating replacing it so I can merge it in with the same Azure function server that's running the Turok2 crossplay master server (so we don't have to pay for two different servers), which are also running .NET. That same .NET program ran the Quake rerelease's crossplay services and survived the game's launch perfectly fine, and are probably the easiest thing I've ever had to maintain. .NET is perfectly fine. Edited September 27, 2021 by Edward850 2 Share this post Link to post
Graf Zahl Posted September 27, 2021 10 minutes ago, AlexMax said: *I think you can install the container runtimes on non-native platforms, but again, see 3, sometimes things just don't work or look broken, plus not everybody is willing to do that. 5) Needing "container runtimes" is a design flaw all by itself. 0 Share this post Link to post
dpJudas Posted September 28, 2021 It doesn't even really matter if .NET or C++ sucks or not for this discussion. :) Long living larger projects with multiple developers are never picture perfect. Yet here we are with talks about "separation of concerns" and "just use library XYZ and all your problems will be solved" - honestly that's just super naive junior level developer stuff. If I go back to boris and tell him that he should rewrite UDB in whichever language is perfect for Linux, guess what the reply will be? Expecting things to be fixed upstream is also rather naive. Or that users won't be complaining while you are waiting for that. 0 Share this post Link to post
wallabra Posted September 28, 2021 It would be blatantly ignorant of me to simply say that professional people tend to avoid Linux. Like, what "expectations" is Linux not achieving? What's the issue with every library being managed by a package manager? It's better than not managing your files at all, I mean, all my Windows installs (from back when I used to use Windows) get messy quickly because I'm not very organized to be entirely honest. And yes, there ARE going to be lots of dependencies. That's just how a modern computer environment is made. Like it or not (I don't), technology, computers and software ecosystems are changing rapidly. Unlike you, I see unifying everything as a bad thing. Let Linux be as fractured as it wants, let it be fucked over by Microsoft if that's what it comes down to. At the very least it'll serve as an example for posterity, of how people coming together for a common cause can do wonders that could previously seem impossible. Maybe in the next decade, Linux will be replaced by a new OS which actually manages to abstract away the complexity and separate interface from implementation. You can't please everyone, but maybe this future OS will quench most concerns and the bitter taste Linux left in many software developers' mouths. Then again, this is as utopic as hoping people will stop eating up American propaganda sometime in the future. 0 Share this post Link to post
LexiMax Posted September 28, 2021 51 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: What's the issue with every library being managed by a package manager? We have been emphatically trying to explain to you why this was counterproductive for third-party software for a fair whack of time. 54 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said: Unlike you, I see unifying everything as a bad thing. Let Linux be as fractured as it wants, let it be fucked over by Microsoft if that's what it comes down to. At the very least it'll serve as an example for posterity, of how people coming together for a common cause can do wonders that could previously seem impossible. You do realize that being fractured and coming together are two complete opposite ends of the spectrum, right? Either way, Linux deserves better than to be a burnt effigy to ideals of being fractured, coming together, inconveniencing developers, or whatever you actually meant. 1 Share this post Link to post
ducon Posted September 28, 2021 9 hours ago, Graf Zahl said: I think this is a textbook example of why I consider Linux's users as its biggest problem. If you come across as an arrogant prick, you indeed are a problem that needs to be fixed! Who is an arrogant prick? Seriously? 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted September 28, 2021 The same problem of Linux people preferring choice over everything else is also the same thing that led to multiple BSDs existing. One of them can't even run GZDoom's JIT properly because of using a different debug format for call stacks as compared to rest of the BSDs. Remember that the POSIX standard started to become a thing in the late 80s because of UNIX variants exploding in numbers. If it weren't for that UNIX would have died by the 90s due to x86 and Microsoft monopoly on PCs and due to developers tending to prefer convenience. 1 Share this post Link to post
dpJudas Posted September 28, 2021 40 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said: The same problem of Linux people preferring choice over everything else is also the same thing that led to multiple BSDs existing. One of them can't even run GZDoom's JIT properly because of using a different debug format for call stacks as compared to rest of the BSDs. I did not know this. Which BSD is that? I thought they all used ELF, DWARF and AMD's x64 calling convention. 0 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted September 28, 2021 Just now, dpJudas said: I did not know this. Which BSD is that? I thought they all used ELF, DWARF and AMD's x64 calling convention. DragonFlyBSD. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) Meanwhile 10 years ago... ...seriously, if the same exact arguments and the same exact "Uhhhh...yeah...maybe...but then not" (or just plain "STFU \/\/1nBl0w$ & U SUxx0RZ") conclusions are being drawn after 10 years (and I'm sure they were valid 20 years ago and will still be valid 10 years from now), well, then a certain train has been definitively been missed :-) "When will Linux discplace Windows", "What Linux needs to do to appeal to the mainstream" etc. hasn't been settled for 20+ years now, and the basic reasons of why it didn't manage the full pull haven't been addressed...maybe it's time to put this to rest? Edited September 28, 2021 by Maes 1 Share this post Link to post
dpJudas Posted September 28, 2021 26 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said: DragonFlyBSD. Ah, well, can't find anything specific about it. There's a fair chance it might simply be using the macOS convention for __register_frame. Someone with DragonFlyBSD could test it out by defining __APPLE__ in jit_runtime.cpp. 0 Share this post Link to post
ducon Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Maes said: (or just plain "STFU \/\/1nBl0w$ & U SUxx0RZ") No, this kind of arguments was written twenty years ago. And what I read here now is "STFU |_1\\u>< & U 5UKKS0rZ". Edited September 28, 2021 by ducon 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) It's a pity I cannot find that old "Let's buy us some Lunix" flash animation with Cliffy B and JeffK. It would go perfectly here. Old and predictable as shit, but so is this thread :-) Edited September 28, 2021 by Maes 0 Share this post Link to post
ducon Posted September 28, 2021 But who can read Flash animations now? Flash is obsolete. 1 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) Well, I thought so myself, and believed that even Newgrounds had switched to all video/pre-rendered animations, but it turns out there are JavaScript-based Flash players that can give those old animations a new life. I was surprised to find that my own animation from my student days still worked :-D https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/291894 Heh that was a trip down memory lane...but I'll probably have to rummage and salvage the "Lunix" one from my archives. Unfortunately, my other, better, and Doom-related animation, doesn't work so well in that particular player. EDIT: well, it does work. <3 It's that the player is a bit finicky and doesn't like right-clicking on it while it's doing its thang. Yay! Edited September 28, 2021 by Maes 2 Share this post Link to post
ducon Posted September 28, 2021 Would you translate it into a jokeWAD? I remember How not to be seen… 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) Well, it was already based on actual WADs (Cybie, Cybie 2, Cybie 3), so what's the point? Unless you want more ;-) Edited September 28, 2021 by Maes 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted September 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Maes said: It's a pity I cannot find that old "Let's buy us some Lunix" flash animation with Cliffy B and JeffK. It would go perfectly here. Old and predictable as shit, but so is this thread :-) Well well well.... it still exists :-) "Wait a minute... how come I don't feel 1337 and condescending like all the other Lunix users?!" Bravo, JeffK! :-D 0 Share this post Link to post
dpJudas Posted September 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Maes said: It's a pity I cannot find that old "Let's buy us some Lunix" flash animation with Cliffy B and JeffK. It would go perfectly here. Old and predictable as shit, but so is this thread :-) Hey, sometimes we enjoy watching an old classic. :) 1 Share this post Link to post
ducon Posted September 28, 2021 In French, we have the cyber asshole webpage. 1 Share this post Link to post
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