Master Levels - The Way id Should Have Done ?

[Soundblock]

I guess as the only currently semi-active member of the ML contributors in our corner of the Doom cosmos, I figure I'd throw some thoughts out there, for posterity eventualities if nothing else.

 

Observing these factors...

1 - ML wasn't made into a full 32-level map set, though pretty much everyone outside of the contemporary id Software think it should've been. Individual difficulty levels varied wildly.

2 - Map styles were fractured, looking at "the set" as a whole - more so than with Doom/Doom II

3 - Each of the authors interpreted subjectively what a "master level" (or more generally, a continuation of Doom gameplay) was/is/should be - some tried making their maps harder than the original maps, some not - they were largely outtakes or expansions of the authors' own works in progress.

 

...I figure these might be some of the guidelines if this project was ever undertaken:

1 - 32 Maps, because that what id should have done - played in consecutive order & balanced tighter than Doom/Doom II, at least on the "hard" setting

2 - Unlike DTWID, there's no _having_ to emulate the original authors' style, rather show what else you can do with Doom, after/over/other than the original II games. I suppose minimum of one "emulation" map per author should be included for consistency with the other "the way" sets, but showcasing what else has happened to Doom level design since takes presedence over repeated author-emulations.

3 - More of a focused agreement on what the offering should be before embarking, but absolutely about showcasing participants' individual styles

 

In the sense of "a master set" (as in, a fully comprehensive set containing all variants) ML-TWISHD might try to showcase at least once, every major "trick" or stride forwards made in Doom level design post- Doom 2, which have since expanded the Doom level designer's toolkit. We might take these for granted now, but each of them were great wow-factors back in the day, and much of the early map efforts were focused around creating new entries. Some examples:

- invisible stairs

- instantly raising/lowering floors/ceilings

- "3D" structures where you seemingly can walk over and under solid geometry

- strobing light effects (maybe not in any large rooms, we know more about epilepsy nowadays than back then)

- exploring successful graphical combinations of the original resources, showcasing surviving "tropes" if you will

...showing these community created "tricks" & methods roughly chronologically from map 01 and onwards could be a neat take, perhaps starting with limit-retained levels, eventually reaching limit-removed ones? This would of course entail creating a somewhat comprehensive list of available "tricks" - no small task in itself I suppose. One might also endeavor to have at least one good use of every line/sector effect available in the game.

 

I figure a benefit-of-hindsight approach might make such a wad better than trying to snapshot the imperfect offering the original package was, while still retaining an aspect of the titular "master" bombastics & focusing on the "level" subject matter.

 

If a plot is needed, I'd suggest the hell gates opening created a series of wildly fractured timelines that the completion of each level "ends", in order to re-form a singular historical timeline, so the demons can't re-invade from the other branches in time.

 

It would be neat to one day reach a full set of "the way" wads anyhow... :)

 

Thoughts?

[Dusty_Rhodes]

It's an interesting concept. I assume it would have death exits to keep the pistol starting gimmick? I don't know if it should really be "the way iD did" since iD barely touched the wad. I've always kind of wanted to make a 21 level wad, where each map was a remake of the orignal master levels. 

 

I think a community project about the Master Levels is something that should be done. I'm just not the person to lead it.

[xdude_gamer]

This could be pretty cool, to be honest. 

[Xaser]

If you're looking for a title, might I suggest "Grandmaster Levels"? ;P

 

Anyhow, I guess there's two ways this could be approached: trying to be somewhat period-authentic (e.g. vanilla maps, stock textures, keep-it-oldschool, those sorts of rules), or a modern "just make a Big Cool Map(tm)", perhaps using the new MBF21 hotness since that's a thing now.

 

The latter approach seems kinda 'undefined' at first glance, but IMO it could work if the process for this is to reach out to a bunch of long-time mapper folks and have the pitch be "make something cool" and have it be like a Supergroup Community Chest sorta deal? If that makes sense.

[Soundblock]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:38 PM, Dusty_Rhodes said:

It's an interesting concept. I assume it would have death exits to keep the pistol starting gimmick?

 

A balanced megawad would be preferable in my book, but yeah - I couldn't get directly involved in this either these days, so not really the one to say about production specifics.

 

 

On 11/7/2021 at 4:38 PM, Dusty_Rhodes said:

I don't know if it should really be "the way iD did" since iD barely touched the wad.

 

I figure the "WISH" part - "way id should have done" gets around this - they called the shots on it after all. Whatever corrections/improvements you might have done to it if you had a time machine type of thing. Fine by me to throw in a pun on its largely observed standard anyways. :)

 

 

22 hours ago, Xaser said:

If that makes sense

 

Yeah, makes sense. Instead of the typical "super-expansive mega-map" that limit-removing sometimes invite, one might just use that feature as a way to avoid visplane overflows & keep the general map complexity somewhat close to vanilla, I suppose.

 

I'm not familiar with MBF21 beyond the wiki, but looks to be right on point for the imagined "spirit" of it - I'd have gone nuts with insta-death sectors back in the day, haha.

 

"Grandmaster Levels" would be a nice take on it too. x)

[xdude_gamer]

Grandmaster Levels sounds and/or is super badass!

 

Spoiler

Maybe we can make some custom music for it too ;)

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by xdude_gamer

[SMG_Man]

The Master levels hold a special place for me in the Doom canon, so I'd love to head something like this. Trouble is I'm still rather new to Doomworld so idk if it'd work out all too well, but I agree that "Grandmaster levels" would be an amazing title for it. Maybe I could try getting it going at the turn of the year, if no one else has?

 

Also just wanted to say, loved your work on the Bloodsea and Blacktower levels. Those two blew my mind when I was little!

[Rudolph]

At the very least, this could make for a very neat Doom 2 mapset.

[P41R47]

Sincerely, Sverre, you have a great idea happening here.
Its a shame you don't have the time to undertake this kind of project, as this is really something interesting, and as one of the oldest mappers and an original contributor to our Doom, it would just be awesome if you ever decide to.

 

On 11/7/2021 at 12:06 PM, Soundblock said:

...I figure these might be some of the guidelines if this project was ever undertaken:

1 - 32 Maps, because that what id should have done - played in consecutive order & balanced tighter than Doom/Doom II, at least on the "hard" setting

2 - Unlike DTWID, there's no _having_ to emulate the original authors' style, rather show what else you can do with Doom, after/over/other than the original II games. I suppose minimum of one "emulation" map per author should be included for consistency with the other "the way" sets, but showcasing what else has happened to Doom level design since takes presedence over repeated author-emulations.

3 - More of a focused agreement on what the offering should be before embarking, but absolutely about showcasing participants' individual styles

This points are absolutely what ''master levels'' should mean.
And, maybe as an idea to go further with what you already wrote, i think that ''master levels'' should show what it is possible on mapping, all the tricks discovered through the years until now, and expand that introducing also the other mapping formats.
At least up to MBF21 with UMAPINFO, for convencience sake on the compatibilities setting.
That way, showcasing the possibilities of the maps, and developeing further on every format at hand would grant a great way to appreciate the evilution of the community as a whole.

@Xaser i am not MBF21 savvy, yet. Could you shed some lights on an idea i had?
I remember that MBF had a toggleable setting for all the tweaks Boom made, to the point of MBF being able to reproduce the vanilla quircks except those not reproducible thanks to the removed limits.
Now, MBF21, probably has the same options, but grants new features to the table, right? Like the instant killing floor named before.
My question is, could it be possible to create on MBF21, maybe with help of UMAPINFO, different settings for compatibility?
For example, first ten maps of the set are vanilla comp, thats it, vanilla weapons, vanilla monsters, maybe some complex dehackery on a few maps and all the jazz; but the last ten are MBF21 with all the new fetures, new dehacked monsters, new weapons and all the new and shiny things.
IF we allow setting for the later they will override the limitations of the first.
Is there a way to handle that on the same wad?
IF that exist, that would be totally possible for a project like this that covers different mapping formats and possibilities.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

12 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

Sincerely, Sverre, you have a great idea happening here.
Its a shame you don't have the time to undertake this kind of project, as this is really something interesting, and as one of the oldest mappers and an original contributor to our Doom, it would just be awesome if you ever decide to.

 

This points are absolutely what ''master levels'' should mean.
And, maybe as an idea to go further with what you already wrote, i think that ''master levels'' should show what it is possible on mapping, all the tricks discovered through the years until now, and expand that introducing also the other mapping formats.
At least up to MBF21 with UMAPINFO, for convencience sake on the compatibilities setting.
That way, showcasing the possibilities of the maps, and developeing further on every format at hand would grant a great way to appreciate the evilution of the community as a whole.

Is it "Master Levels" in that the players are being challenged, and therefore only masters can beat them? Or are they "Master Levels" in that masters of mapping make complex showstoppers made for advanced game engines? I've actually warmed up to what Mr. Sverre suggested in the op:

 

On 11/7/2021 at 9:06 AM, Soundblock said:

In the sense of "a master set" (as in, a fully comprehensive set containing all variants) ML-TWISHD might try to showcase at least once, every major "trick" or stride forwards made in Doom level design post- Doom 2, which have since expanded the Doom level designer's toolkit. We might take these for granted now, but each of them were great wow-factors back in the day, and much of the early map efforts were focused around creating new entries. Some examples:

- invisible stairs

- instantly raising/lowering floors/ceilings

- "3D" structures where you seemingly can walk over and under solid geometry

- strobing light effects (maybe not in any large rooms, we know more about epilepsy nowadays than back then)

- exploring successful graphical combinations of the original resources, showcasing surviving "tropes" if you will

...showing these community created "tricks" & methods roughly chronologically from map 01 and onwards could be a neat take, perhaps starting with limit-retained levels, eventually reaching limit-removed ones? This would of course entail creating a somewhat comprehensive list of available "tricks" - no small task in itself I suppose. One might also endeavor to have at least one good use of every line/sector effect available in the game.

 

I think this would be really interesting, and maybe would be more true to classic Doom than MBF21. Not that MBF21 is bad, and I'm not against it, but I think showcasing classic tricks that were shown off in early PWADs feels more fitting.

It is an interesting question, and I'm glad it was brought up. The more I've thought about it, more interesting it is. Are there any wads that you think would be a real "master level" that already exist? Do you have to be a master to beat Plutonia 2, Scythe 2, Sunder, Sunlust? Do these count as Master Levels? Or do they specifically have to be levels that reference / are a tribute to / etc The Master Levels? Maybe this could be a chance for the Doom old guard to get together and make a real Master Level set. Or maybe the young blood in the community can push boundaries with MBF21.

 

I'm curious to see this go somewhere, but maybe it won't. Best of luck if it does though. Sorry if this is a bit tangential.

[xdude_gamer]

13 minutes ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Are there any wads that you think would be a real "master level" that already exist? Do you have to be a master to beat Plutonia 2, Scythe 2, Sunder, Sunlust? Do these count as Master Levels?

If they do I'm probably screwed

[Cammy]

I'm fully on board with this idea and I have one hope in particular, especially since @Soundblock is the one who's putting the idea on the table: finally creating a full and proper megawad which realizes the story of the Cabal.

 

The story, if you're unaware (taken from the text files of Sverre's ML maps):

Spoiler

You once were the biggest and baddest Cyber-demon to rule hell and you spear-headed the council that governed the underworld; "the Cabal". Betrayed by the other members you find yourself not only dismantled, but also a victim of the utmost demonic humiliation: You've been morphed into a human! Of course you're out for revenge and have to kick the other members of the Cabal's butts one by one.

 

Even if it doesn't change anything about the gameplay, imagining your quest into Hell as more of a conquest/reclamation than a crusade of punishment - taking back your throne, rather than destroying it - just gives off this really cool vibe. In fact, I was really close to making my own custom compilation frankenwad of the Master Levels which used that idea as a springboard for its text screens - in fact, I may actually have those proof-of-concept text screens still laying around somewhere!

 

@Soundblock would know better than I would, of course, but my understanding was that he intended to make a full megawad out of this idea, and each of his ML maps were meant to be levels within that megawad - but as a result of that big exodus of maps, the wad became fractured and ended up never coming out. This could be an opportunity to correct that. Suffice it to say if this idea does take off I'll be pumped to write some music for it assuming my schedule will have the room for it. Keep us in the loop, this is exciting stuff!

[Dusty_Rhodes]

28 minutes ago, Cammy said:

I'm fully on board with this idea and I have one hope in particular, especially since @Soundblock is the one who's putting the idea on the table: finally creating a full and proper megawad which realizes the story of the Cabal.

 

The story, if you're unaware (taken from the text files of Sverre's ML maps):

  Hide contents

You once were the biggest and baddest Cyber-demon to rule hell and you spear-headed the council that governed the underworld; "the Cabal". Betrayed by the other members you find yourself not only dismantled, but also a victim of the utmost demonic humiliation: You've been morphed into a human! Of course you're out for revenge and have to kick the other members of the Cabal's butts one by one.

 

Even if it doesn't change anything about the gameplay, imagining your quest into Hell as more of a conquest/reclamation than a crusade of punishment - taking back your throne, rather than destroying it - just gives off this really cool vibe. In fact, I was really close to making my own custom compilation frankenwad of the Master Levels which used that idea as a springboard for its text screens - in fact, I may actually have those proof-of-concept text screens still laying around somewhere!

 

@Soundblock would know better than I would, of course, but my understanding was that he intended to make a full megawad out of this idea, and each of his ML maps were meant to be levels within that megawad - but as a result of that big exodus of maps, the wad became fractured and ended up never coming out. This could be an opportunity to correct that. Suffice it to say if this idea does take off I'll be pumped to write some music for it assuming my schedule will have the room for it. Keep us in the loop, this is exciting stuff!

It would be very cool to see that be realized!

[Astronomical]

On 11/7/2021 at 10:38 AM, Dusty_Rhodes said:

It's an interesting concept. I assume it would have death exits to keep the pistol starting gimmick? I don't know if it should really be "the way iD did" since iD barely touched the wad. I've always kind of wanted to make a 21 level wad, where each map was a remake of the orignal master levels.  

 

I think a community project about the Master Levels is something that should be done. I'm just not the person to lead it.

Yeah, espesally considering the ML midi pack will not be touched by most people because of the legwork necessary to play the master levels with the midi pack. 

[Syn]

I think I would be very down to take part in something like that honestly, Master Levels could have been really fun but ended up left in the dust.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

11 minutes ago, SynDoom said:

I think I would be very down to take part in something like that honestly, Master Levels could have been really fun but ended up left in the dust.

I generally agree, but I love Black Tower, Trapped on Titan, and Nessus. Like to a stupid degree. In the mess of mediocre Willits maps and God - awful Klie maps, there's a few gems.

[xScavengerWolfx]

I will agree that the name "grandmater levels" sounds really badass.

 

As far as the Master Levels go, i never understood why they would name it that?

 

Were the mappers (at the time) like some kind of grand wizards that makes levels for masters only?

 

Some maps were good, some were eh and some were just bad. I will amide that i do like Teeth (The express elevator to hell), Titan Manor and blood keep. I like the layout of the maps and the challenges they had especially on UV difficulty. I also did like black tower because the tower looks kinda funny in the far distance.

 

I think we (the community as a whole) get together and make our own version of the master levels, how they were supposed to be. Not how they turned out.

Make a Megawad (if we're doing doom 2) or 4 episodes (if doing Doom 1).

 

Theme wise would be kinda in between like slaughter-eqse and puzzle like mapping style if that makes sense, also have custom midis made for each map (i.e bring in composers that want to make midis for maps), maybe do some crazy architecture and maybe bigger maps....don't make maps so huge the player will get bored looking for the exit and/or figure out puzzles.

 

Overall i believe that there should be a grandmaster level theme megawad project and or episodes set. 

 

 

[Lila Feuer]

You could tell some of the Master Levels were intended to flow into other maps the author did that weren't included, like ending with weapons you never get to use.

[SMG_Man]

All right, I really want to get this written down now even if now's not a good time to get it started.

 

So building off of what @Cammy mentioned about @Soundblock’s background story with the Cabal, you can identify 5 (mostly) mythological names in the original Master levels:

 

Geryon

Mephisto(pheles)

Virgil

Nessus

Minos

 

And if I could be so bold and suggest one more to be added to the list:

 

Moloch

 

These could be the other named members of the Cabal that the player has to kill. With 6 cyberdemons to kill, that nicely works out to 6-mini episodes of 5 levels each, or 3 episodes of 10 levels each depending on how it’s structured (plus 2 secret levels somewhere). The narrative would then be framed around the player taking down each of them one by one, traveling to the 6 different realms the cabal members control.

 

That covers the story part of it; as for the technical design rules for the levels, personally I think working with limit-removing for the whole set would make the most sense, but if Boom or MBF21 are more desired by people wanting to work on this, that would work as well. My main concern is just keeping some sort of unity in it; to me, it doesn’t make too much sense for some people to shoehorn themselves to limit-removing while other mappers are working in Boom or MBF21 format, and that could end up showing in the levels as well.

 

On the aesthetic side, instead of making *direct* homages to the original Master Levels, I think working just off the titles would be fine. It would allow more creative freedom while still not completely throwing out everything from the original set. Working like this would still leave 11 map slots to fill though, which could either be decided on by discussion, or a first-come-first-serve basis.

 

Like with the map format issue, whether to use custom textures or not is another matter that I’d rather leave up to consensus instead of imposing my own will.

 

Do you guys think something like this could work?

[ChopBlock223]

I like the idea of building off of the Cabal concept.

 

Using MBF21 compat, we'd have DehExtra to make use of, and in that case I think that each of the big bosses could be made something more special.

Doesn't have to be anything too dramatic, just palette swapped versions of some demons with some redrawn/altered detail, and some boosted stats and altered attacks. Like, a dirt-green Arch-Vile with a gaping hole for a face, who's even faster and can blink in and out of existence, or a Cyberdemon with skin black as coal, maybe a new head, and his rockets are homing. Stuff like that.

 

Just spitballing, but I think since it's doable, it may be worth doing, so that normal Cyberdemons can still be used as enemies in other maps, as I think they're useful.

 

If there'd be basically a small minisode for each boss, possibly some sort of visual theme could be aimed at for each as well. One is fire, another is flesh, then one could be classic green marble and another natural caves, etc. Just examples, these could be worked out.

 

You can get surprisingly far with just the Doom 2 textures, though I feel adding the ones Doom 2 dropped from Doom 1 could be worth it for added flexibility, perhaps also handpicking a couple of beta ones, and still one wouldn't stray much from the classic Doom aesthetic.

 

 

[Soundblock]

Thanks for the kind comments guys! I hasten to add this post was in no way made for this purpose though. x)

Looking at it objectively I figured it would be nice to air potential avenues, in case it was every fully embarked on.

 

I know its been discussed a few times in the past without reaching a conclusion in the aspect of what form it would take...

 

 

14 hours ago, P41R47 said:

i think that ''master levels'' should show what it is possible on mapping, all the tricks discovered through the years until now, and expand that introducing also the other mapping formats.
At least up to MBF21 with UMAPINFO, for convencience sake on the compatibilities setting.
That way, showcasing the possibilities of the maps, and developeing further on every format at hand would grant a great way to appreciate the evilution of the community as a whole.

 

If technically feasible within a single .wad this would definetely be a preferable approach, for my own tastes at least. No idea how well these formats mix though. There's also the question of engine/port.

 

 

13 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Is it "Master Levels" in that the players are being challenged, and therefore only masters can beat them? Or are they "Master Levels" in that masters of mapping make complex showstoppers made for advanced game engines?

 

Well, these are questions I'm sure the original mappers asked themselves at the time - I know I did. I personally kinda read into it as requiring a bit of doom mastery to beat back then. However, I was culled by id several times for making them too hard, so I that definetely wasn't the main drive behind the name, as is also clear when looking at some of the easier entries in the set (e.g. Willits' offerings). In a perfect world though, every facet of interpretation should be weighed and felt somewhat, as long as they don't leave any unresolvable paradoxes about how such a follow-up package might be implemented.

 

At the end of the day, the project came about as an answer to the ftp-scraped D!ZONE series - so I figure the name is a juxtaposition, in the same way you might compare canned spam and steak. Dzone was about community-created quantity (1000s of new maps, during a period when people were starved for them), id wanted ML to be about community-created quality, a cherry-picked "master set" of sorts, ca 1995.

 

 

14 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

I think this would be really interesting, and maybe would be more true to classic Doom than MBF21. Not that MBF21 is bad, and I'm not against it, but I think showcasing classic tricks that were shown off in early PWADs feels more fitting.

 

I assume it would still be possible to employ MBF21 in there whilst refraining to use any of its advanced features, for say, an early section of such a mapset? Much like you could remove engine limits throughout, but still include maps made for Chocolate, again maybe best as earlier entries in such a map set?

 

 

14 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Are there any wads that you think would be a real "master level" that already exist? Do you have to be a master to beat Plutonia 2, Scythe 2, Sunder, Sunlust? Do these count as Master Levels? Or do they specifically have to be levels that reference / are a tribute to / etc The Master Levels?

 

For me, sure - I personally found I had reached the limit of my Doom playing skills while trying to beat the wad everyone were raving about the time - Sunder. Its when I realised I was no longer a "badass" at playing Doom compared to much of the community, so in the aforementioned sense of "mastery to beat" its when I well and truly felt served on that front (I've since seen a few playthrougs on YT & have some ideas on how I might progress further, but there was a definete sense of the meta having moved on for me back then). At a cretain level, it becomes a question of different playstyles being on offer in different wads though - to each his own kinda thing. I guess a "grandmaster" wad could try to encorporate every style, but might again be better served by picking one or several that are close in nature. I won't try to "lay down the law" in this regard anyway, at the end of the day, whichever pathway that might prove to have enough momentum to be carried out would be the "right" choice for this.

 

As to referencing other wads, I guess there should be room for a singular nod to each original author in there, but that any main focus in such a regard would be better served aimed at other great offerings from the community, different from the lucky-fuck early-birds that were having an oputput around the time there was a small window open to get on that disc. The suggestion to have the story be about "re-unifying fractured reality branches" kinda leaves the door open for any & all noteable "tributes to a masterful" level/style in this regard, whether by design or happenstance.

 

 

14 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

I'm curious to see this go somewhere, but maybe it won't.

 

Well, statistically I'm sure odds are against it, if one looks purely on the type of post this is, but I'm so inactive on the actual content-creation front for Doom lately, that I figured it would be better to air my thoughts on the subject & leave those here, rather than dissappearing completely and silently, if my current contribution vector should happen to be on a stable course. :]

 

 

14 hours ago, Cammy said:

finally creating a full and proper megawad which realizes the story of the Cabal.

 

Nooooooo! Hahaha, much as I still like that story-line as its own little thing, I'd never suggest picking up that specific story-tangent in the same breath as trying to sketch out an subsequent extrapolation from ML, as a whole. Definetely counter-productive & reductive of odds, hahaha.

 

...if I ever was to finish Cabal the way I originally envisioned it (and I won't) it would definetely be by "mapping blind" again using DETH or DEU - making levels with Doombuilder & a constant 3D preview just yields completely different results for me. Echelon was my way of scratching the "make a 32 level map set" bucket list itch. 

 

...having said that, & again playing on the suggestion of "multiple realities being gathered to one canon" (within the confines of the imagined project anyway - I think we all know Doom canon will never be made fully coherent/singular) - there's nothing stopping anyone from inserting a map or two into this set, whose gimmick is to end/continue the Cabal story. It just won't be me doing it, lol. Nor should it be the overall story for an entire "Grandmaster" offering.

 

...plus, and just so it's mentioned, I certainly wouldn't object to someone picking up the Cabal concept where it was left and finishing that storyline on its own, but I'm 100% sure that would be a seperate project from the one proposed in this thread. :)

 

Thanks though. x)

[Gez]

On dimanche 7 novembre 2021 at 9:41 PM, Xaser said:

Anyhow, I guess there's two ways this could be approached: trying to be somewhat period-authentic (e.g. vanilla maps, stock textures, keep-it-oldschool, those sorts of rules), or a modern "just make a Big Cool Map(tm)", perhaps using the new MBF21 hotness since that's a thing now. 

I think such a project ought to stay within vanilla territory. No DEHACKED stuff. Stock textures not necessary, since custom textures are not really an issue with vanilla, though perhaps any custom texture ought to have that "vintage" feel about them. E.g. not something super polished like OTEX, but more on the level of what you can find in Aliens TC, Unholy Trinity, Final Doom, Perdition's Gate, etc.

 

UMAPINFO could be used, though, just to provide proper level names and stuff. But to me anything that deviates too much from how a map play would detract from the "authentic" experience one could expect from a "the way id did" or "the way id should have done".

[ViolentBeetle]

23 minutes ago, Gez said:

I think such a project ought to stay within vanilla territory. No DEHACKED stuff. Stock textures not necessary, since custom textures are not really an issue with vanilla, though perhaps any custom texture ought to have that "vintage" feel about them. E.g. not something super polished like OTEX, but more on the level of what you can find in Aliens TC, Unholy Trinity, Final Doom, Perdition's Gate, etc.

 

UMAPINFO could be used, though, just to provide proper level names and stuff. But to me anything that deviates too much from how a map play would detract from the "authentic" experience one could expect from a "the way id did" or "the way id should have done".

I don't think Dehacked to change names on automap is less vanilla. But I agree that Master Level tribute should use Doom 2 format and stock textures, beside, perhaps, a sky.

[Rudolph]

Was there not a bunch of maps rejected from the original Master Levels? Do you think they could be included in this project?

[Dusty_Rhodes]

2 hours ago, Soundblock said:

Well, these are questions I'm sure the original mappers asked themselves at the time - I know I did. I personally kinda read into it as requiring a bit of doom mastery to beat back then. However, I was culled by id several times for making them too hard, so I that definetely wasn't the main drive behind the name, as is also clear when looking at some of the easier entries in the set (e.g. Willits' offerings). In a perfect world though, every facet of interpretation should be weighed and felt somewhat, as long as they don't leave any unresolvable paradoxes about how such a follow-up package might be implemented.

 

At the end of the day, the project came about as an answer to the ftp-scraped D!ZONE series - so I figure the name is a juxtaposition, in the same way you might compare canned spam and steak. Dzone was about community-created quantity (1000s of new maps, during a period when people were starved for them), id wanted ML to be about community-created quality, a cherry-picked "master set" of sorts, ca 1995.

 

 

 

I assume it would still be possible to employ MBF21 in there whilst refraining to use any of its advanced features, for say, an early section of such a mapset? Much like you could remove engine limits throughout, but still include maps made for Chocolate, again maybe best as earlier entries in such a map set?

 

 

 

For me, sure - I personally found I had reached the limit of my Doom playing skills while trying to beat the wad everyone were raving about the time - Sunder. Its when I realised I was no longer a "badass" at playing Doom compared to much of the community, so in the aforementioned sense of "mastery to beat" its when I well and truly felt served on that front (I've since seen a few playthrougs on YT & have some ideas on how I might progress further, but there was a definete sense of the meta having moved on for me back then). At a cretain level, it becomes a question of different playstyles being on offer in different wads though - to each his own kinda thing. I guess a "grandmaster" wad could try to encorporate every style, but might again be better served by picking one or several that are close in nature. I won't try to "lay down the law" in this regard anyway, at the end of the day, whichever pathway that might prove to have enough momentum to be carried out would be the "right" choice for this.

 

As to referencing other wads, I guess there should be room for a singular nod to each original author in there, but that any main focus in such a regard would be better served aimed at other great offerings from the community, different from the lucky-fuck early-birds that were having an oputput around the time there was a small window open to get on that disc. The suggestion to have the story be about "re-unifying fractured reality branches" kinda leaves the door open for any & all noteable "tributes to a masterful" level/style in this regard, whether by design or happenstance.

 

Thanks for the reply. Really interesting to see what the working on the Master Levels was like.  Also, I like your suggestion about MBF21.

 

And don't worry, I can't beat Sunder either haha. It was the second wad I ever downloaded (that tells you how new I am to the community) and I couldn't get past Map02.

2 hours ago, Gez said:

I think such a project ought to stay within vanilla territory. No DEHACKED stuff. Stock textures not necessary, since custom textures are not really an issue with vanilla, though perhaps any custom texture ought to have that "vintage" feel about them. E.g. not something super polished like OTEX, but more on the level of what you can find in Aliens TC, Unholy Trinity, Final Doom, Perdition's Gate, etc.

 

UMAPINFO could be used, though, just to provide proper level names and stuff. But to me anything that deviates too much from how a map play would detract from the "authentic" experience one could expect from a "the way id did" or "the way id should have done".

Yeah, no need for MAPINFO lumps. Dehacked is vanilla friendly and allows for automap names and text screen editing. And CWIL## lumps can be changed easily for intermission screens. Nothing against MAPINFO it's very cool and one of the great additions Hexen added to the engine, but if we want to be vanilla minded Dehacked and changing menu lumps is the best method. 

I totally agree with your comments about textures though. These new ones look too good!

[SMG_Man]

Honestly I wouldn't mind UMAPINFO to allow for multiple people to do stuff like the boss death triggers in MAP07, as it's a somewhat coveted map slot otherwise. Hell, the original Master levels had 3 maps using that slot.

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Yeah, no need for MAPINFO lumps. Dehacked is vanilla friendly and allows for automap names and text screen editing.

Sure, it can be done with DEHACKED. But DEHACKED can do a lot more, such as changing actor behavior. Talking about UMAPINFO emphasizes the limits to the kind of changes that would "fit" IMO. Just the kind of stuff you could find in an official id-produced expansion pack, like Thy Flesh Consumed, TNT, or Plutonia.

[ViolentBeetle]

"We are doing it with stock vanilla assets in Doom 2 format" should be enough. Project lead could later add map names using dehacked.

[Xaser]

I mentioned MBF21 more for the mapping feature set (i.e. in the past I would've suggested Boom here) -- DEHACKED stuff is too "out there" for this project concept. That also places UMAPINFO within reach, which would help a ton because the 32-map single-episode format is done to death and being able to split apart presumably a large set of maps into episodes (and possibly have real secret levels :p ) would help a ton.

 

Mainly though,I'm trying to suggest not-vanilla, because vanilla mapping seriously limits the pool and "push vanilla to its limits" has already been done. At that point there's no reason to stick to the old ways, if we're not trying to be full-dtwid period authentic. :P

[printz]

5 hours ago, Xaser said:

Mainly though,I'm trying to suggest not-vanilla, because vanilla mapping seriously limits the pool and "push vanilla to its limits" has already been done.

Personally I'd rather see non-vanilla as in new things, new monsters and items, and especially new episode layout, with unknown and unforeseen secret and alternate exits. This is more attractive than the generalized / Turing-complete voodoo scripting of BOOM.