Did early (1993-1996) category "B" shooters ever had a chance?

[UnknDoomer]

The Terminator: Future Shock, Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold, Corridor 7: Aliens Invasion, Depth Dwellers, or, perhaps, something else, take your pick. A number of those had a relatively good and original concept, although they had a lot of shortcomings, but every of them were destined to remain in the shadows, first of all - Doom, and then other shooters. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of those who played some of those games back in the day. In your opinion, did they have an any chance to move further and got a wider audience?

Edited November 17, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Redneckerz]

9 hours ago, UnknDoomer said:

Corridor 7: Aliens Invasion, Operation Body Count, Depth Dwellers, take your pick. A number of those had a relatively good and original concept, although they had a lot of shortcomings, but every of them were destined to remain in the shadows, first of all - Doom, and then other shooters. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of those who played some of those games back in the day. In your opinion, did they have an any chance to move further and got a wider audience?

Rex Blade should have been allowed to be better - You could quite literally program your own game in a game using a custom programming language.. (REX++) That kind of novelty would trick me atleast.

 

Like this:

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Redneckerz

[Dusty_Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Rex Blade should have been allowed to be better - You could quite literally program your own game in a game using a custom programming language.. (REX++) That kind of novelty would trick me atleast.

 

Like this:

 

Never heard of that. Seems very impressive.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

On topic, no, they never stood a chance.

 

Games using the Wolf 3D engine were never as good as Wolf 3D. And that was already outdated by 1993 because of the incredible Doom engine. Doom fans had Doom, Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, and The Master Levels. On top of the (mostly) quality official releases, you had also had a burgeoning community, even though they aren't Ancient Aliens good, you still had great stuff like Aliens TC, Infinity, Obituary, etc.

 

On top of that, you have excellent games like Heretic, Hexen, Quake (later on), Descent, Descent 2, Hacx etc.

 

There was no reason to play lazier, inferior games when there were so many good ones. And when Half Life came out, they didn't stand a chance.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Dusty_Rhodes

[Rudolph]

Do not forget about Marathon:

 

 

[Noiser]

Unfortunately no. Blake Stone and Corridor 7 are great games on their own and in their development there was nothing more advanced - however they got caught by the Doom avalanche. At that point, Doom games would always look more impressive than their poor Wolf3D cousins lol

Still, a lot of people have found memories and enjoyed them for what they were. But commercially speaking they never stood a chance.

 

3 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

And that was already outdated by 1993 because of the incredible Doom engine. Doom fans had Doom, Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, and The Master Levels. On top of the (mostly) quality official releases, you had also had a burgeoning community, even though they aren't Ancient Aliens good, you still had great stuff like Aliens TC, Infinity, Obituary, etc.

 

On top of that, you have excellent games like Heretic, Hexen, Quake (later on), Descent, Descent 2, Hacx etc.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Wolf games plays completely different from Doom games, so you can still enjoy both as long as you like the tropes associated with them (which many people don't). Maze-like design, environmental puzzles, hitscan combat, etc.
 

3 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Games using the Wolf 3D engine were never as good as Wolf 3D.
(...)
There was no reason to play lazier, inferior games when there were so many good ones. And when Half Life came out, they didn't stand a chance.

Games like Blake Stone or Corridor 7 are far from lazy. And in my opinion they are quite superior to Wolf3D in a lot of ways. 
 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Noiser

[PsychEyeball]

2 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

On topic, no, they never stood a chance.

 

Games using the Wolf 3D engine were never as good as Wolf 3D.

Rise of the Triad would like a word with you. It used the Wolfenstein 3D engine, yet the game was capable of things that Doom didn't even have. It had primitive room over room, dynamic lighting, walls that move on their own that could crush you, the ability to rocket jump, trampolines and was completely bonkers.

 

Honestly, the only way you could tell this game ran on the Wolf engine was the 90 degree walls. That's literally the only thing ROTT has in common with its parent game. It was its own beast.

 

To this day I find ROTT more fun to play than Heretic ever was. Take that, game with superior technology!

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

-Games like Corridor 7 and Blake Stone aren't very popular, but they could be considered minor cult classics. They have a number of issues that drag them down, but I prefer them over Wolf3D.

 

-Marathon is a respected cult classic, in part due to its developers.

 

-Rise of the Triad was very innovative and was popular enough to warrant a remake.

 

Sure, these aren't mainstream games, but they aren't so obscure that I'd say they "remain in the shadows". They are discussed quite often here, and in other retro-FPS circles. Were they ever destined to be as popular as DOOM? No. But they made their mark and are still remembered.

Edited November 16, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Arrowhead]

I've got some pretty good memories of Depth Dwellers, but I think I'd be mistaken to call it a 'good game.'

 

The main problem w/ these type of games is the style of progression - all the games you listed in the OP rely nearly entirely on mazes to progress.

 

The fact that mazelike progression only makes up a small portion of Doom's progression, might have contributed to Doom's continued popularity compared to those games... I don't know, kind of a shower thought...

[Gez]

No, they didn't stand a chance. Doom is not titled after the demon invasion of its plot. It's titled after the thorough trouncing it was gonna inflict on all of id's competitors. True story:

 

https://www.doomworld.com/interviews/int7.shtml

John Carmack: There is a scene in "The Color of Money" where Tom Cruise shows up at a pool hall with a custom pool cue in a case. "What do you have in there?" asks someone. "Doom." replied Cruise with a cocky grin. That, and the resulting carnage, was how I viewed us springing the game on the industry.

[Walter confetti]

I've played a shareware demo of Rex Blade ages ago.

[Stupid Bunny]

The Magic Labyrinth of I.M. Meen should've been one of the legendary titles of the 1990s, but was sadly brought down by miserable little goodie-goodies

[Dusty_Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Noiser said:

Unfortunately no. Blake Stone and Corridor 7 are great games on their own and in their development there was nothing more advanced - however they got caught by the Doom avalanche. At that point, Doom games would always look more impressive than their poor Wolf3D cousins lol

Still, a lot of people have found memories and enjoyed them for what they were. But commercially speaking they never stood a chance.

 

You are comparing apples with oranges. Wolf games plays completely different from Doom games, so you can still enjoy both as long as you like the tropes associated with them (which many people don't). Maze-like design, environmental puzzles, hitscan combat, etc.
 

Games like Blake Stone or Corridor 7 are far from lazy. And in my opinion they are quite superior to Wolf3D in a lot of ways. 
 

 

2 hours ago, PsychEyeball said:

Rise of the Triad would like a word with you. It used the Wolfenstein 3D engine, yet the game was capable of things that Doom didn't even have. It had primitive room over room, dynamic lighting, walls that move on their own that could crush you, the ability to rocket jump, trampolines and was completely bonkers.

 

Honestly, the only way you could tell this game ran on the Wolf engine was the 90 degree walls. That's literally the only thing ROTT has in common with its parent game. It was its own beast.

 

To this day I find ROTT more fun to play than Heretic ever was. Take that, game with superior technology!

 

2 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

-Games like Corridor 7 and Blake Stone aren't very popular, but they could be considered minor cult classics. They have a number of issues that drag them down, but I prefer them over Wolf3D.

 

-Marathon is a respected cult classic, in part due to its developers.

 

-Rise of the Triad was very innovative and was popular enough to warrant a remake.

 

Sure, these aren't mainstream games, but they aren't so obscure that I'd say they "remain in the shadows". They are discussed quite often here, and in other retro-FPS circles. Were they ever destined to be as popular as DOOM? No. But they made their mark and are still remembered.

Allow me to elaborate, I really like Blake Stone. Corridor 7 is terrible in my opinion. I should've thought of RoTT and Blake Stone as they are quite fun and far from lazy. Also RoTT is so advanced I don't count it strictly as a Wolf3D engine game. Apogee really revolutionized that iD engine. Super impressive work.

I'm sorry but Capstone games are not good, Apogee's Height of Gaming Excitement assured that Operation Bodycount would be little more than shovel ware. Again, I don't know how RoTT and BS escaped my mind. Great music, graphics, gameplay, and concepts in them both.

 

Also OP mentioned Corridor 7, so I don't think it's unfair to compare them in this case. Any other context and it'd be unfair. And yeah, again RoTT rocks, sorry for not thinking of it. In general, Apogee / 3D Realms were awesome back in the day.

I'll take Wolf over Capstone games any day. Marathon and it's sequels are damn good games. Ones I've played almost as much as Doom, so I don't know how they slipped my mind. Halo CE made me a lifelong Bungie fan, and that extends back to Pathways into Darkness, a game I actually like better to Wolf 3D. And it can actually compare to it as well.

 

So yeah, sorry for the unintentional Blake Stone and Triad hate. They're awesome. As ambitious as some Capstone games were, they are majorly terrible in my opinion.

And add Duke 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior, Marathon, Marathon 2: Durandal, Marathon: Infinity, Pathways into Darkness, both Blake Stone games, and Rise of the Triad to the list of games that will be played and remembered for much longer than anything Capstone produced.

[LadyMistDragon]

Corridor 7 being Capstone's best game doesn't exactly speak to a high reputation as a developer. Truth is, Civvie shoud've probably left them alone because now we get objectively bad games such as Witchaven and ....Operation: Body Count(Seriously, did Shadow the Hedgehog come up with that title or something? Fuck, the cringe is so hard) on GOG. That said, I've got kind of a soft spot for it, as I can remember it playing at my cousin's house when I was 8. However, I don't think it's better than Wolf 3D, and I'm not even a fan of that game.

[Noiser]

23 minutes ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

So yeah, sorry for the unintentional Blake Stone and Triad hate.

Doesn't make any sense to praise Blake Stone and shit on Corridor 7. Both games are similiar (despite Corridor 7 having more content and features overall). In my opinion the only reason people hate this game on such irrational level is because of the Civvie "review" - and you can't change my mind on that

Edited November 17, 2021 by Noiser

[Dusty_Rhodes]

1 minute ago, Noiser said:

Doesn't make any sense to praise Blake Stone and shit on Corridor 7. Both games are similiar (despite Corridor 7 having more content and features overall). In my opinion the only reason people hate this game on such irrational level is because of the Civvie "review" and you can't change my mind on that 

No, not that at all. Corridor 7 is ugly, noisy, and just not fun to me. A little jank in some aspects too. It's a personal taste thing. And like @LadyMistDragon said, if that's their best game that's a problem.

I'm not trying to convince you, I think it's fine you like it. I don't.

[Rudolph]

3 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

-Marathon is a respected cult classic, in part due to its developers.

I meant to use Marathon as an example of a first-person shooter from that era that did manage to stand out.

 

In fact, I believe it was considered Apple's answer to Doom.

[Murdoch]

24 minutes ago, Noiser said:

Doesn't make any sense to praise Blake Stone and shit on Corridor 7. Both games are similiar (despite Corridor 7 having more content and features overall). In my opinion the only reason people hate this game on such irrational level is because of the Civvie "review" - and you can't change my mind on that

 

Swing and a miss. I played the demo and hated it long before Civvie or even YouTube itself was a thing. Terrible game. Garish, janky and overhyped. I still remember it's absurd marketing where it had "Prepare to Meet Thy Doom" with meet crossed out and beat written underneath it.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Murdoch

[Noiser]

17 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Swing and a miss. I played the demo and hated it long before Civvie or even YouTube itself was a thing.

Any exception to the rule is expected. Make an estimate of people who played the game after and before the video and see if the majority would agree with you.

 

17 hours ago, Murdoch said:

I still remember it's absurd marketing where it had "Prepare to Meet Thy Doom" with meet crossed out and beat written underneath it.

You already said that to me before - It doesn't have anything to do with the development process or the people who created the game.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Noiser

[Rudolph]

Sometimes, I cannot help but wonder where video games in general would be right now if it were not for all the shitty competition. It is kind of heartbreaking to see all the games that got either cancelled or rushed out of the door, only to go unnoticed.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Rudolph

[Ragu]

None of them save for maybe ROTT had much of a cultural footprint, but there was a sizable segment of the PC player base that couldn't play Doom or were stuck playing it in an extremely sub-optimal way -- they hadn't upgraded to a 486, or couldn't. PC hardware was unbelievably expensive in those days, after all. There was definitely a market for less-advanced Doom-lites for those that were stuck on 386s, and though sales figures aren't readily available it wouldn't surprise me if some of the higher profile ones like Blake Stone and the Capstone games did reasonably well for themselves. Capstone at least did well enough to keep themselves going for a while.

[CBM]

9 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

On topic, no, they never stood a chance.

 

Games using the Wolf 3D engine were never as good as Wolf 3D. And that was already outdated by 1993 because of the incredible Doom engine. Doom fans had Doom, Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, and The Master Levels. On top of the (mostly) quality official releases, you had also had a burgeoning community, even though they aren't Ancient Aliens good, you still had great stuff like Aliens TC, Infinity, Obituary, etc.

 

On top of that, you have excellent games like Heretic, Hexen, Quake (later on), Descent, Descent 2, Hacx etc.

 

There was no reason to play lazier, inferior games when there were so many good ones. And when Half Life came out, they didn't stand a chance.

ROTT, Blake Stone, Catacomb Abyss and The Terminator: Future Shock were all great games and I've enjoyed them all.

I never tried any of the other wolf based games though... like corridor 7 and what not.

Is there a complete list of games based on the wolf engine?

[JBerg]

24 minutes ago, CBM said:

ROTT, Blake Stone, Catacomb Abyss and The Terminator: Future Shock were all great games and I've enjoyed them all.

I never tried any of the other wolf based games though... like corridor 7 and what not.

Is there a complete list of games based on the wolf engine?

 

https://www.giantbomb.com/wolfenstein-3d-engine/3015-7153/games/

[CBM]

11 minutes ago, JBerg said:

 

https://www.giantbomb.com/wolfenstein-3d-engine/3015-7153/games/

Thanks for the link.

I'm surprised at the catacomb abyss dates. They must be Wrong.

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

5 hours ago, Noiser said:

Doesn't make any sense to praise Blake Stone and shit on Corridor 7. Both games are similiar (despite Corridor 7 having more content and features overall). In my opinion the only reason people hate this game on such irrational level is because of the Civvie "review" - and you can't change my mind on that

I wasn't really aware that Corridor 7 gets shit on that much. I've never watched a Civvie video, but to me C7 (and Blake Stone) just comes across as an average game that was a bit more interesting than Wolf3D, despite its problems. I'm not a huge Wolf3D fan to begin with, though. 

[june gloom]

Marathon may be considered a cult classic but its influence is minimal, in part due to the first and third game being Mac exclusive and the Windows port of 2 being relatively obscure even at the time. I feel like the most influence it ever had was on Valve. I rarely see any attempt at replicating the feel of Marathon in the Doom community or anywhere else. Closest thing would be Brendan Chung's Barista.

 

I'd love to see someone here do a Marathon spiritual sequel, terminals and all.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

2 hours ago, june gloom said:

Marathon may be considered a cult classic but its influence is minimal, in part due to the first and third game being Mac exclusive and the Windows port of 2 being relatively obscure even at the time. I feel like the most influence it ever had was on Valve.

It could be argued that Marathon (somewhat indirectly) was massively influential due to the fact that it was a Bungie series that inspired and preceded Halo, which I imagine would be quite different if it wasn't for Marathon. I'd say that any game related to the development of one of the most popular and acclaimed FPS series in history had more than minimal influence, even if it didn't sell as much as its successor.

Edited November 17, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[ReaperAA]

12 hours ago, PsychEyeball said:

Rise of the Triad would like a word with you. It used the Wolfenstein 3D engine, yet the game was capable of things that Doom didn't even have. It had primitive room over room, dynamic lighting, walls that move on their own that could crush you, the ability to rocket jump, trampolines and was completely bonkers.

 

Honestly, RoTT's engine can hardly be called Wolf3D. The engine has so many features that it should actually be considered something between a Wolf3D and a Doom clone.

 

Also I personally find Heretic overall much more polished and fun than RoTT (although I admit that RoTT is more ballsy when it comes to implementing whacky gameplay features).

 

12 hours ago, Arrowhead said:

The main problem w/ these type of games is the style of progression - all the games you listed in the OP rely nearly entirely on mazes to progress.

 

The fact that mazelike progression only makes up a small portion of Doom's progression, might have contributed to Doom's continued popularity compared to those games... I don't know, kind of a shower thought...

 

This is also a very important aspect. Apart from Doom being more technically advanced, another reason why it did so well over the years is because it is very accessible and has very polished gameplay, artstyle and level design (for its time of course).

 

I remember giving Marathon a try a couple years ago (using Aleph One source port), and I gave up after playing like 5 or 6 maps due to the level design being mazey and the artstyle looking very amateurish compared to Doom (or even Heretic, Hexen or the main build engine games for that matter).

 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

8 hours ago, CBM said:

ROTT, Blake Stone, Catacomb Abyss and The Terminator: Future Shock were all great games and I've enjoyed them all.

I never tried any of the other wolf based games though... like corridor 7 and what not.

Is there a complete list of games based on the wolf engine?

Yeah see my later reply. I made a lot of corrections to my original post.

[Rudolph]

6 hours ago, june gloom said:

Marathon may be considered a cult classic but its influence is minimal, in part due to the first and third game being Mac exclusive and the Windows port of 2 being relatively obscure even at the time. I feel like the most influence it ever had was on Valve. I rarely see any attempt at replicating the feel of Marathon in the Doom community or anywhere else. Closest thing would be Brendan Chung's Barista.

 

I'd love to see someone here do a Marathon spiritual sequel, terminals and all.

I admit, even the Aleph One port feels rather clunky to use on PC, as the controls seem to be designed with Apple's OS in mind first; I could never figure out how to pause the game or even configure the settings in-game without going back to the main menu. Also, the FOV really takes time to get used to. I would really love to see the Marathon Trilogy get remade in GZDoom or equivalent.

 

As for a spiritual sequel, you might want to check out Supplice.