If you had to replace one level or remake a level from Classic Doom (Ultimate Doom and Doom 2) with a new map, what level would you replace and why, and what would your level be like and why?

[MegaZzZeux]

Nirvana, hands down.

 

Also I *get* the hate for E3M1...but E3M9 is pretty legit because of it the way it is.

[Walter confetti]

I'm sorry, but i don't get the E3M1 hatred...

Sure, the two cacos against your pea shooter is a sadistic choice from Petersen, but you know what? For me it's a great opener for Hell episode and this make you understand that we aren't joking here, dealing already with hard monsters right at the start of the episode! At least, is better than MAP21.

 

If i had to change a map it should be E3M8, the concept is interesting but the execution is terrible. A proper map with more ammo and enemies will be better imo.

 

For the same reason, a proper boss battle for MAP30 with a more though approach and a better design than been trapped into a nukage abyss, something like MAP29 will be good.

 

Also, both bosses for both maps needs a better remake, one is weak and the other is a wall that spit monsters lol. But for that, needs some Dehacked work done.

[Rudolph]

Even though I get the criticisms against E3M1, I do not recall ever having much problem with the level myself: I just wait for the Cacodemons to exit the tunnel, then I rush in, grab the shotgun and then go back to deal with the Cacodemons.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Rudolph

[pcorf]

13 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Jimmy remade Doom II levels as secret levels for Deathless, so maybe your secret levels could be remakes of Ultimate Doom levels! :P

 

If I decide on this, they'll be Vanilla-style maps from scratch with stock textures and no Wolfenstein resources intended to be the secret maps for the German version of Doom 2. Just imagine pcorf taking a time machine back to 1994 and working on the maps at id. I may replace the music with some of the rejects from Doom and change the storylines, etc.

Edited November 25, 2021 by pcorf

[Rudolph]

Fair enough. I just thought it would be funny - and also kind of cool, as Jimmy's remakes of Doom II levels as Ultimate Doom secret levels felt surprisingly appropriate in addition to being more challenging than their original Doom II counterparts.

[leodoom85]

E3M1 is....ok-ish. It's definitely not the worse of that episode, unlike E3M8, but it's not a good opener in my opinion. A remake is fine and there are different remakes of E3M1, after all.

 

One thing though...any opinions of the PSX counterpart of Hell Keep?

It looks way different but it kinda works as a fine opener...

[Cilian]

I'm sure E3M1 could be better but it's not that bad. E3M7 limbo was worse, it's the level before facing the final boss and it feels underwhelming, the puzzle vibe fits something early to mid more. Pandemonium and house of pain fit for M7 better than limbo imo.

[Rudolph]

@leodoom85 I like Console Hell Keep! It is a shame that it never made its way on the PC - at least, officially.

[Astronomical]

Episode 3, I personally don’t hate much of doom 2 other than IOS. But grinding through enemies when I don’t have enough ammo isn’t fun.  It’s clear Sandy only had a few weeks to work on doom 1

[Rudolph]

16 hours ago, Astronomical said:

Episode 3, I personally don’t hate much of doom 2 other than IOS. But grinding through enemies when I don’t have enough ammo isn’t fun.  It’s clear Sandy only had a few weeks to work on doom 1

Really? How did you manage to run out of ammo? I do not mean to disparage you here, I am just genuinely surprised, as one of my biggest gripes with vanilla Doom is the overabundance of ammo and supplies, even on Pistol Start.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Rudolph

[Hellbent]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:46 PM, DynamiteKaitorn said:

I'd replace E3M7 With literally ANY DooM II map prior to map 25. Seriously... E3M7 was not built well.

Downvote. I used to have mixed feelings about this map but I like it now. Though a lot of that has to do with playing that map recently after not playing Doom for a long time and only going into one switch tower in the incorrect order. At least the map has plenty of rad suits.

 

The level that most disappointed me when I played it back in 1994 was E3M8. I'd replace it with a more interesting map. The other level I was a little less disappointed by was Fortress of Mystery. It's a cool map, but could it be a little longer please? Very short map geographically speaking. I'm also not a fan of E4M4. Something about that map feels like "average pWAD" and just not very DOOMy or interesting. It's also too small a map for the M4 mapslot (as an M1 slot I'd say it'd be quite a good level actually). New thread: "How would you reorder the levels in each Ultimate Doom episode and why?" For Episode 4 my order would be: M4, M3, M2, M5, M9, M7, M6, M8, M1. Might have to alter M1 slightly, like have barons teleporting in from the exit teleporter right before you step on the exit teleporter. I would actually replace M9 with something else. I hate the use of symmetry in this map. It is probably the least memorable map for me in all of Doom canon.

On 11/24/2021 at 8:15 PM, pcorf said:

 

I've been thinking about making secret level replacements for Doom 2 for the last few years. Will do it when I am ready.

I love this idea! I look forward to this. 

 

I don't think I'd reorder Episode 1, except that maybe I'd swap M6 with M7.  M6 has a fitting end for a penultimate level. 

 

For episode 2: I might swap M6 with M7 as well. You might even be able to make an argument for swapping M7 with M4. How about M1, M3, M2, M5, M7, M6, M4, M8, M9. The low dungeon ending of E2M4 segways nicely into the dungeon textured start inside of a tower of E2M8. (Going up!)

 

Episode 3: The only change I might make to episode 3 is to swap M4 with M5, so: M1, M2, M3, M5, M4, M6, M7, M8, M9.

 

22 hours ago, Cilian said:

I'm sure E3M1 could be better but it's not that bad. E3M7 limbo was worse, it's the level before facing the final boss and it feels underwhelming, the puzzle vibe fits something early to mid more. Pandemonium and house of pain fit for M7 better than limbo imo.

Maybe you are right; I will reorder accordingly: M1, M2, M7, M6, M5, M3, M4, M8, M9

Now that I think about it, E3 could be much more compellingly with a total reordering. The contrast of going from deep in the dungeons (M7) to the surface of hell (M6) is quite striking I think. Although an annoying switch maze coming so early in the episode might turn off too many players (though it is the third episode so it's not like you don't have some experience by the time you reach Limbo). But could order it: M1, M2, M3, M7, M6, M5, M4, M8, M9. (I think I prefer my second reordering to this one). 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Hellbent

[Astronomical]

31 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Really? How did you manage to run out of ammo? I do not mean to disparage you here, I am just genuinely surprised, as one of my biggest gripes with vanilla Doom is the overabundance of ammo and supplies, even on Pistol Start.

The last time I played it was a few years ago and I was much worse.  I might actually give it another shot.

[Rudolph]

@Astronomical I have learned to punch or chainsaw Pinkies and Spectres in order to save ammo. It is a pretty effective tactic, unless of course you are dealing with a mob. Getting monsters to infight is also a good way to thin their ranks!

[ax34]

MAP30 - make it beatable on pacifist

[Noiser]

E3M1 is cool. It's a cinematic opener filled with shock-value: The red sky, the flesh, the eye switch. Having to pistol two Cacodemons is definitely boring, but from a perspective of someone who's playing Doom for the first time, it feels opressive. The only map I would change in UDoom is E4M4, because I think it's too small and easy to be the fourth map of the set.
 

On 11/24/2021 at 2:53 PM, Rudolph said:

E2M9. The two arenas are okay, but the skull key non-puzzle is, well, puzzling, to say the least.

Has Sandy Petersen ever explained why he designed the map that way? If he is to go back to making Doom maps, I wish he could redo E2M9.

I don't think it's a puzzle. It's just a way of slowing down the player so he can kill the monsters instead of rushing to the end of the level.

Modern mappers do the same but by spreading switches through the room, sometimes in a semi-hidden fashion (which is of course more effective than what Sandy did, but we have years of observation to know that).

Edited November 26, 2021 by Noiser

[Rudolph]

7 hours ago, Noiser said:

I don't think it's a puzzle. It's just a way of slowing down the player so he can kill the monsters instead of rushing to the end of the level.

Modern mappers do the same but by spreading switches through the room, sometimes in a semi-hidden fashion (which is of course more effective than what Sandy did, but we have years of observation to know that).

Why not have a door that only opens once all the enemies are slain, though?

 

E1M8 already did this with the Barons of Hell and it was designed by Sandy Petersen.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Rudolph

[Oday]

I'd remake MAP01 or replace it with a different look and appeal from the original game. The reasons are fairly simple, having fun doing it, making it look better, bragging about it, or maybe its just that weird feeling about editing your childhood game.

[Hellbent]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Why not have a door that only opens once all the enemies are slain, though?

 

E1M8 already did this with the Barons of Hell and it was designed by Sandy Petersen.

Maybe to give people who couldn't figure out how to kill all the monsters a chance to duck and dive and exit the level without engaging with all the monsters? Sandy recently acknowledged how scary this level would be to anyone who may have not have figured out monster infighting by the time they reached this level. source: 

 

[Rudolph]

I am still not convinced. Again, E2M9 is fairly similar to E1M8; if you can beat the latter, then surely you can beat the former, no?

 

Anyway, it is not a big deal. At least, now I understand Sandy's design better. Thanks for the link, by the way!

[cannonball]

Definitely Nirvana (Map21), Oddly despite my dislike of E3M1 (It is the worst opener by far), it is a map that frankly could be fixed simply by adding a chainsaw or berserk, simply removing the pistol only irritation would be sufficient to make the map passable.

Doom 2 map21 is a complete and utter mess, the fact that one key is completely worthless due to the design of the bars is the icing on the cake. To be replaced the map needs to be beyond redemption and this truly is it.

[Deadwing]

I agree with E3M8, it feels like id didn't know what to do with the SMM, and it was quite disappoint having no BFG in that level (as far as I remember)

[Rudolph]

5 hours ago, cannonball said:

Definitely Nirvana (Map21), Oddly despite my dislike of E3M1 (It is the worst opener by far)

Even worse than E4M1?

 

@Deadwing Indeed, there is not.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Rudolph

[Ashurion Neonix]

I'd remake E2M5, E3M5, and E3M7. While I don't mind the confusing layouts, there isn't really any reason to explore. I feel like they could use some extra decoration and some more enemies in the later parts as the just sort of dry out at the end. I'd also add some platforms across the lava so you don't have to backtrack for rad suits. Plus it would add more decoration to the big open main room.

Also E3M8, the final boss dies way to quickly. I'd probably add a lot more enemies. Maybe even multiple arenas with masterminds.