Having a grenade switch button is criminally annoying

[Kute]

Look, my wow characters would have like 90 keybinds and I was a duelist level player so like, I can use huge UI's. It's not about that. It's just so clunky and annoying to have a swap button instead of just 2 grenade buttons. Like that's just terrible design. The game is so great and when you get warmed up, feels so intuitive and smooth - except for having to swap grenades. It feels like it just puts an annoying block into the moment. Instead of just pressing a button, I have to see which one I'm on, then switch, then press a button. It's not rocket science, but it's just so unnecessary. It's the same amount of buttons, just without that thought process which in a game this fast, can make you feel like you're grinding to a total halt - even if it's just an instant to switch.

 

This is one of the best games I've ever played, which is why it annoys me so. Playing on nightmare there's no part to the gameplay you can get away with being awkward with, but no matter what, you have to devote a moment of the wrong kind of thinking to this process. 

 

[whatup876]

The Ice Bomb might've been a later addition, since a clip revealing it was shown somewhere on 2019, after the announcement of Eternal getting delayed to March 2020.

[Kute]

24 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

The Ice Bomb might've been a later addition, since a clip revealing it was shown somewhere on 2019, after the announcement of Eternal getting delayed to March 2020.

Fair enough but it's still the worlds simplest fix. I have to assume it's intentional design at this point, though for the life of me, I can't wrap my head around the choice. I'd choose to have 5%+ to demon health and damage to have this changed

[Martin-CAI]

Agreed.
 

I even tried to look for a script so I can throw them just with one click. Something quite unnecessary because, as you said, there are just 2 types of bombs, so the button that you have to bind to switch between them could be used to bind one of the nades.

 

It's a problem that no one seemed to address in this subforum, so I'm glad that you mentioned it and, maybe, someone working for id sees it and does something with it.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Martin-CAI

[Caffeine Freak]

Alternate perspective:

 

This is a valid complaint about the game, but I feel like there is a critical aspect being overlooked here: trading the 'Swap Grenades' button for one of the grenade types means reducing the number of keystrokes involved in using Grenades and Ice Bombs. You may be thinking 'well yeah, that's the point', but what you're not taking into account is that it increases the potential stopping power of the player, especially when you're talking about a fully upgraded arsenal and full Praetor token wheel. In that case, the Ice Bombs allow the player to do extra damage, freeze enemies for longer, and produce health drops when frozen enemies are damaged, coupled with the fact that grenades spawn scatter bombs with every enemy they kill and are a *guaranteed* falter. This in turn would mean the game needs to be counterbalanced to account for the change.

 

Think of it this way. If the player wants to launch a Grenade, followed up by an Ice Bomb, followed by a final Grenade, the button presses are as follows:

 

Grenade -> Grenade Swap -> Ice Bomb -> Grenade Swap -> Grenade

 

With the Swap button replaced, that input is reduced to:

 

Grenade  -> Ice Bomb -> Grenade

 

This may not seem significant, but what's the delay between switching to a grenade type and being able to use that grenade type? Probably miniscule, maybe even less than .25 seconds, if there is even a delay at all. But in Doom Eternal, a fraction of a second can be an eternity, and removing that delay would have ripples throughout the gameplay. This is especially true when it concerns something that is a potential 'panic button' for the player, i.e., anything that can stop the AI in it's tracks during tight moments. Monitoring which type of bomb is active at all times is another way the game makes you strategize, instead of merely allowing you to mash two buttons simultaneously in the middle of a blind panic, hoping that one of the buttons holds the key to your salvation.

[Martin-CAI]

Good points, but they can even keep that delay artificially, so you can't spam 3 nades at once in a little fraction of time.

 

Also, I do spam "switch+throw+switch+throw..." quickly when I'm in a desperate situation, but not because I want to, but because I don't know what I'm going to throw. Being able to instantly know what type of nade you're throwing would encourage specific uses. So, for example, if you want to throw the ice bomb, you'll throw it with its dedicated button instead of spamming until you see you threw it. There are just a few occasions in which we can switch, then look what we are going to throw and then throw it. Most of the time is trial and error: "oh, I threw a bomb. I didn't want to do that. I switch and now I throw an ice bo... I died". Also, I wouldn't say that this change would let us save a substantial amount of time, considering the spamming strategy that (I'm quite sure) most of us follow in those situations.

[BoxY]

Forcing the player to use more inputs than is actually necessary to perform a simple action is just dumb no matter which way you slice it, same with not showing the player the cooldown status of both grenades at the same time even though the HUD is crammed with a million other things that are much less important. Balancing a game by making inputs more convoluted would be the most misguided thing you could possibly do, it's like the people who say survival horror games are scarier when you have tank controls because it's harder to run away, at the minor cost of making literally every single other movement task in the game a pain in the ass. Be serious now.

[Caffeine Freak]

8 hours ago, BoxY said:

 Balancing a game by making inputs more convoluted would be the most misguided thing you could possibly do, it's like the people who say survival horror games are scarier when you have tank controls because it's harder to run away, at the minor cost of making literally every single other movement task in the game a pain in the ass. Be serious now.

 

I am being serious. When you increase the potential stopping power of the player, you're affecting the balance of the game. It's that simple. 

 

Whether or not the game should have been designed with grenade swap is beside my point; it *was* designed that way, and has had multiple DLC expansions, Master Levels, Battlemode and a Horde Mode released with that feature intact. If you're not factoring how it would affect the balance of those things into your consideration, you aren't having a serious discussion about the topic.

 

 

10 hours ago, Martin-CAI said:

Good points, but they can even keep that delay artificially, so you can't spam 3 nades at once in a little fraction of time.

 

Also, I do spam "switch+throw+switch+throw..." quickly when I'm in a desperate situation, but not because I want to, but because I don't know what I'm going to throw. Being able to instantly know what type of nade you're throwing would encourage specific uses. So, for example, if you want to throw the ice bomb, you'll throw it with its dedicated button instead of spamming until you see you threw it. 

 

Excellent points. I think this is the most compelling argument I've seen in favor of having dedicated grenade buttons. Any change that would incline players to use equipment more strategically and as less of a 'panic button' would be a good change that goes in the direction of Doom's intended design. 

 

I feel like the grenades would still become panic buttons anyway, but at least here they wouldn't be blindly launching a grenade when they meant to throw an ice bomb.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Caffeine Freak