25 year old map of mine

[pampoo79]

Hello Doomworld!

 

so back then when I didn't even have internet I bought this CD-ROM which had loads of pwads on it and also some interesting modding tools, and over time I made some stuff which I actually never published.

In recent years I stumbled upon DoomBuilder and I was amazed at how much more comfortable it is than with the old editors. I actually revisited a bunch of maps, improved some gameplay issues and aesthetics. So what I'm gonna post here is the Castle of Lunacy 2 in which for the first time I made use of modern features like silent teleport, transparent textures and scripts. I also implemented a mechanic I deemed a bit problematic in hindsight: you have to find a certain number of more or less hidden switches (they're all visible on the map!) or you won't be able to exit. For the rework I was able to make use of a little ACS scripting to make this mechanic clearer to the player. Therefore don't rush through the map!!! Always be on the look out for hidden stuff!

 

Some further Infos:

 

- required is a modern port, I tested with GZDoom and Zandronum, the map format is "GZDoom: Doom2 (Hexen)", thus also required is Doom2.wad

- There is no advanced source port feature needed like jumping or free look (although I play with free look).

- All 3 difficulty settings are implemented. I'd say it's designed for the experienced player, casuals should not be ashamed to use easy. For this rework I put some extra effort into balancing though, so there should hopefully be the right amount of ammo/health. You should have enough ammo to kill all monsters without infighting and without secrets.

- size is rather big, estimated play time 30-45min

 

I am delighted that finally someone is gonna play my stuff (hopefully), and if you'd record your run like I've seen in other topics here that would be the icing on the cake.

 

EDIT: apparently the difficulty is indeed still a bit steep. Please consider difficulty settings (and/or the directors cut). I'm just glad there was at least one player who went through it with rather little effort. I just made a quick walkthough of the full length version showing all secrets (I think) but without using them (had to take one rocket launcher though).  https://youtu.be/UHFis-Iwk2I I also sprinkled in some more items after the feedback.

 

EDIT 19.12.2021: I reworked the end among other details. Here's a "100%" playthrough https://youtu.be/otgLV2SnRG4

 

EDIT: 01.01.2022 I removed the Directory Cut I originally included in this post as I have modified the full version to my liking

 

EDIT: 29.01.2022: more edits, hopefully final version

 

EDIT: 26.04.2022: added final doomworld link

DOWNLOAD

 

and some screenshots (partially outdated):

 

 

 

 

And here are some additional ones from the full length version:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by pampoo79
removed directory cut

[Clippy]

very sorry to say I struggled to play this, only found shotgun and found it grindy -- may try again down the road good luck

Edited January 29, 2022 by Clippy

[Dubbag]

 

[TheMetalEditor]

Playing through it right now and I have to say I kind of like it.
The unmixed version might be just a wee bit too hard and I can't say I'm too much of a fan of the whole hidden switches in most maps, but I dig the castle Theming of it all and overall especially for a updated map that's this old I like it!
Does make me kinda wish that it was more then one level though

(Edit: I also must say I like the name as well and if you do make another map maybe a       little less stingy with ammo XD)

Edited December 4, 2021 by TheHeavyMetalEditor

[Biodegradable]

I decided to play the Director's Cut. It's tough but good fun. There was a great risk/reward factor going on for the explorative player too, which I certainly appreciated. I'd love to see more maps from you in the future, Pampoo, should you feel the itch to make more. Welcome to Doomworld!

 

 

[RetroAkaMe]

What is the difference between director's cut and the full one?

[Biodegradable]

49 minutes ago, RetroAkaMe said:

What is the difference between director's cut and the full one?

 

Try reading the original post again, Retro lol. It literally lays out the changes.

[RetroAkaMe]

12 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

Try reading the original post again, Retro lol. It literally lays out the changes.

Oh yeah. I saw it. Seems like my eye doesn't want to think.

[pampoo79]

7 hours ago, Clippy said:

There's a difference between "hard" that's fun, and hard that's just hard because you only give a shotgun and make the player grind through endless meat - I gave up pretty early - sorry - not a fun time

hmm you should get the chaingun pretty quickly and the super shotgun is in the tower once you enter the inner court yard, not even 5 minutes in. The rocket launcher is hidden near the yellow key. Thanks for playing though!

[pampoo79]

6 hours ago, TheHeavyMetalEditor said:

Playing through it right now and I have to say I kind of like it.
The unmixed version might be just a wee bit too hard and I can't say I'm too much of a fan of the whole hidden switches in most maps, but I dig the castle Theming of it all and overall especially for a updated map that's this old I like it!
Does make me kinda wish that it was more then one level though

(Edit: I also must say I like the name as well and if you do make another map maybe a       little less stingy with ammo XD) 

Yeah about the hidden switches, that's why I removed them in the director's cut. It's more for the explorative player.

 

The thing with when you play our own map a thousand times is that you kind of lose touch with difficulty, but as I said it's not a shame to play on easy! I'll post the predecessor of this map soon if you want more.

[pampoo79]

@Dubbag Man that start is touch to watch, I never intended the player to even engage with the Mancubus at that phase and to top it off you also discovered a bug with that door to the teleport. And oh my gosh you discovered another bug, the "red key door" has a sidedef that asks for the yellow key. I'm so sorry! Immediately fixed the issues and updated the files. You powered through like a real soldier.

 

Also you got it wrong, both posted maps have been reworked. For the directors cut I just removed stuff like all the switches. I think you just went normal difficulty with the latter so you perceived the beginning as easier.

[nearboomerdoomer]

there was some cool design choices with the hidden teleporters and switches i also loved the switch vision or what ever you call it. it remined me of doom 64. but my only complaint to many arch viles i could definitely see this in plutonia 7.5\10 maybe even a solid 8 thanks it was fun id like to see more.

Edited December 4, 2021 by nearboomerdoomer

[nearboomerdoomer]

also got a little bit of a quake vibe form the castle design of the wad.

[Clippy]

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

hmm you should get the chaingun pretty quickly and the super shotgun is in the tower once you enter the inner court yard, not even 5 minutes in. The rocket launcher is hidden near the yellow key. Thanks for playing though!

 

Hey there, I want to start off by saying I feel bad for my experience. I like to make videos for people and give good feedback but the gameplay here was so uninviting to me. I actually started a recording too but my experience was like this:

 

Start with a pistol and just pinkies, swarmed and dead. Bust through to deal with shotgunners - try to get a shotgun - lose health - mancubus - running around cramped narrow hallway - pinkies constantly eating me and my ammo - get to lift - half the time - finally make it up there and hell knight on narrow ledge you can fall off - kill him and waste ammo or bust through him to meet room full of revs and imps - still just a shotgun this whole time

 

After a bunch of trial and error for this I did get a chaingun, you're right - blew it on the spiders. back to shotgun - unlimited hitscanners in windows - not a piece of health to be seen - I find some kind of narrow maze type situation and finally see a medkit ... behind a revenant - now I'm picking off rev after rev with a single shotgun thru a narrow maze with hitscannes in windows. Honestly after turning a corner to see another rev I have to agonizingly pick off with low health and a single shotgun I threw in the towel

 

I RARELY quit on a map but I felt like I played so long and was progressing to a CRAWL

 

I'm sorry to say I was pretty flustered and had to stop the video, I felt like the map was going to take all night forcing the player to go at a snails pace

 

I am glad to see others made videos for you but I can't personally hack this slow gameplay, I feel like if you are throwing higher tier monsters at the player you need to give better equipment, or certainly not hide pivotal items from the player.

 

Anyway sorry again buddy, if you make more maps I will certainly try them and I wish I had a better experience for you

[thiccyosh]

I have never played a map that uses high tier enemies in places so aggrovating for me that I really wanted to turn my room into a particle accelerator with my mouse and PC being the particles. And this map really took the whole damn cake.

 

I played the full length (or uncut) version of this wad and I must say that was a horrible idea on my end.

 

Usually I am fine with maps that want to crank up the heat in terms of difficulty, however this map has a difficulty curve about as soft as a landing as skydiving without a parachute, it really wants to be the smaller brother to the Plutonia experiment, but it reaches far over the difficulty and ends up to be Hell Revealed as you will be fighing Arch-Viles and Barons with some Imps to go along with Pinkies and a military of Revenants and Chaingunners in crammed areas and will give you PTSD once you're done after one or so hours. You do get weapons, but don't get enough space to breathe and fight. To make matters even more spiteful you get to listen to E1M5 track for that whole damn hour which made me even more pissed off than if you just left it at D_RUNNIN and don't even get to kill the Cyberdemon at the end, as you'll be dry on ammo once you're there, I'm not kidding when I say that you cannot kill a Cyber with 182 bullets, 8 shells and 13 rockets and have to fight on daminging floor. After that you'll be in a death exit with, who guessed it, one more Archie to end your miserable playthrough.

 

Every ambush, every fight, every second feels like a fat fuck you to the player. This map is an endurance test, rather than a map that feels satisfying to play and beat. Which is not to say that your map is garbage, it is the difficulty that ruins the fun by activly putting roadblocks in front of the player and expecting them to overcome the bullshit that they're getting flung at. The visuals are neat, though it has some flaws like texture alignment errors and is a bit too gray with all of those stone 2 textures stapled over the walls, you seem mix a lot of textures with techbase stuff which makes me think that castle belongs to the UAC. Interesting details!

 

But that is where the positives end, the rest of the aspects are either things I don't like or could've been more fleshed out. The map layout is at points basic, with some fool proofed areas (i.e. lots of trees on the cliff where is health bonus secret is) and sometimes this map is hard to look through. And oh god the switch hunts, either really secret or really easy to find. This damn metal room where you have to go through the bloodfall to get to the switch is trollishly hidden and made me go insane as this was the last switch I had to hit. Talking about hidden things, I never liked maps that have a crap ton of secrets, in this case 12 is too much if you ask me.

 

Before I close this semi-rant about a Doom wad, I really wanted to mention the fireplace part of this map. This is the ultimate fuck you to the player in this map, you run through fire and have to fight Arch-Viles in every goddammed corner. You cannot go two steps and have to fight Archies, you have a BFG9000, but there are 15 Arch-Viles alone in the fireplace and get merely 300 cells if you saved some up. And if you don't have enough health for this part, you can go kiss that time bye-bye as I started with 180 armor and health and went out of this part with 16 health and no armor at all. This is not fun at all, and I'd recommend just Idclipping to the switch and hitting it before you lose IQ points by playing this part. Oh! And you can get out of bounds in the room with the teleporter that leads you to the doors you have to open by carefully stepping on the teleporter and jumping off the balcony.

 

I can get why Clippy did not like this map at all, and you know what? I don't like it either.

 

I give this version of this map 9 out of 10 hanged Arch-Viles in terms of difficulty, and 6 out of 10 smoking breaks for overall map design and texturing. I hate this version and strongly discourage you to play this version, play the director cut instead like Bio did. I reckon pampoo79 saw the same issues I listed and I'm very glad he made a much more manageable and friendlier version of his work for the others. And I will say it again: The map itself isn't bad, it is the difficulty of this version that sours the fun.

 

I played this version so you don't have to.

 

Have a nice day.

Edited December 4, 2021 by thiccyosh
fixed two typos

[Degree23]

9 hours ago, thiccyosh said:

Before I close this semi-rant about a Doom wad, I really wanted to mention the fireplace part of this map.

 

This part is insanely difficult. I get why the floor is damaging, as it's a fireplace, but without a Radiation Suit (if there was one I missed it), that didn't seem to be the place for that kind of fight. I was fortunate enough to just run past the first time taking only one AV blast. On the way back I discovered the Invulnerability, but that really needs to be present at the start of the fight.

 

I have to say I didn't mind the switch hunting too much, and despite lacking a SSG early, I played it slow and found most of the map to be quite enjoyable. It's not the kind of map which would be to everyone's tastes, and things which would help would be to reduce the amount of cramped areas, and sprinkle a few more health packs around.

 

However, after successfully finding all the switches, to be dropped down right next to a Cyberdemon who shot me instantly and killed me, was an absolute fucking joke, and not one I appreciated. People are free to do what they like with their maps, but fuck off with that. It left me with an extremely sour taste in my mouth.

[nearboomerdoomer]

turn on item respawn it its the only way i survived on ultra violence. its do able on hurt me plenty. but on uv no way. f*ck that sh*t! lol cause damn this is a pretty hard map now that ive replayed it about 3 times. it took me about 30 mins the first time. on HMP. but on uv it took me a hour and 45 mins. i like the directors cut better (because he removed the switch puzzle). cause on uv my best time was 21 mins. (on the DC version). with item respawn of course. still a 7.5/10. i would like to see more from you since its been 25 years since you made this map id like to see what you can do now. (i also played on brutal doom on my 3rd playthrough and smooth doom as my default for all maps i play with a gore mod on the second just because. its definitely fun with brutal doom. but way harder because of every boss exploding lol).

Edited December 5, 2021 by nearboomerdoomer

[pampoo79]

16 hours ago, Degree23 said:

Before I close this semi-rant about a Doom wad, I really wanted to mention the fireplace part of this map

 

16 hours ago, Degree23 said:

This part is insanely difficult. I get why the floor is damaging, as it's a fireplace, but without a Radiation Suit (if there was one I missed it),

 

haha I somehow knew that that part was gonna be controversial (but I did it anyway because I'm evil I guess). In fact I actually only added the sector damage for the rework but I added a Berserk behind each Arch Vile, did you all miss that? (I feel like "don't you have mobile phones?" at this point) To everyone curious here's how I thought that to be played (I made a quick walkthrough and added it to the original post after seeing all the complaints). I'll take your suggestion and put a radiation suit behind the picture on the wall secret where currently there's a blue armor.

 

 

16 hours ago, Degree23 said:

However, after successfully finding all the switches, to be dropped down right next to a Cyberdemon who shot me instantly and killed me, was an absolute fucking joke, and not one I appreciated. People are free to do what they like with their maps, but fuck off with that. It left me with an extremely sour taste in my mouth. 

 

Yeah that's a bit cruel I gotta admit. It's just supposed to be a little "ha, you thought it was over, didn't you?" shocker - you're actually just supposed to run past him into the actual exit, which of course, is also a bit of a cruel joke apparently:

 

On 12/4/2021 at 2:55 PM, thiccyosh said:

After that you'll be in a death exit with, who guessed it, one more Archie to end your miserable playthrough. 

 

I laughed at this but felt bad about it (edit: I just removed that part). But I bet you were extra happy when it was over, didnt you? I mean I was 17 at that point and overflowing with creativity you could say. That's also why I didn't find an end and so I made the directors cut.

 

Everyone who soldiered through (the full length version especially), especially @thiccyosh you're all real troopers and I'm sorry I cost you so many nerves and am thankful for your patience.

thanks @Degree23

thanks @nearboomerdoomer

thanks @Clippy (you can also watch the video so see how I intended the beginning, but I also removed the Mancubus now)

 

I promise my next wad will get better balancing (in fact I already chased a friend through it who was really brave) and I'll put a walkthrough video in the post from the beginning.

Edited December 5, 2021 by pampoo79

[Clippy]

I shouldn't be thanked all I did was complain and couldn't make ya a vid - but I will be open to trying any future maps - good luck buddy

[thiccyosh]

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

I'm sorry I cost you so many nerves and am thankful for your patience.

 

Strictly speaking I did this to myself as a stubborn playtester, when I was in the middle of this wad I thought to myself "You're going to beat this horrible nightmare and you aren't going to give up." and just went with that. I promise my review of your next map will have less profanity than this one!

 

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

But I bet you were extra happy when it was over, didnt you?

 

Yes and no, yes as I was happy this mess of a map was over after one full hour and no because I wanted to get every kill, and that Archie was one last punch to my face.

[pampoo79]

So it's finally time to bumb this... Since my first post I have been working on the map almost daily. I played through countless times without secrets, ensuring ammo is just right. I tried making every situation fair, every secret not too obvious but always giving enough hint, used monsters best fitting for all situations etc. No stone was left unturned, no texture unaligned (ok lets not fool ourselves, there will probably always be bugs). Many places got smaller aesthetic overhauls, but also several bigger ones. Every feedback I got I treated as valid and implemented change.

 

It would especially be cool if @Clippy gave this another try and maybe even @thiccyosh too (that "I played this version so you don't have to" stuck with me). Maybe despite everything don't go UV.. And a remember to everyone not to ignore any blue switch. Constructive criticism still welcome. Further info and download in the OP

[SP_FACE1]

Played with GZDooM, HMP.

 

Even though the map was quite big and seemed complex at first it was well interconnected such that I was able to open all the final doors except one without any extra effort. The last one required scanning through the map and after a couple of minutes I remembered one place that I had deliberately skipped with the intention of coming back later.

 

I found 13/15 secrets.

 

A couple of bugs I encountered:

• Teleport destination (#72) is half inside a wall and player got stuck.
• I was unable to get out of sector #473 (the secret with the radiation suit).

[pampoo79]

thanks for playing! fixed the bugs

 

5 minutes ago, SP_FACE1 said:

Even though the map was quite big and seemed complex at first it was well interconnected

 

yeah that's one thing I (probably everyone at first) struggled with, the map not being a corridor but areas being interconnected and the player revisiting them multiple times. I always marvel at maps that achieve this well. If I ever create a new map from scratch now I will definitely focus on that. Although the base structure of the map stood from 25 years ago I tried to break up some walls to give the player some visual cues at least so they feel like they're still in the same place

 

12 minutes ago, SP_FACE1 said:

I found 13/15 secrets.

well done, that's more than I find sometimes lol

[thiccyosh]

I'm willing to give anyone a second chance, and in this case it actually made me like this map more than the other time!

 

To be fair, I should note that I already know what was coming up, along with most of the secrets. So most switches were really easy to find. Instead of giving you the same review I wrote but more friendlier I will write what I've noticed in contrast to the old version.

 

First off, I've noticed that not only that every texture was more aligned, but that you've also added more Qol improvements to help, rather than to annoy the player. That switch that was hidden behind a room only accessable via fake Bfall? Now the Bfall texture is translucent to indicate that you can actually walk through it now. Or that one very nice fireplace part with 500.000 Arch-Viles? Now it has one radsuit and less dmging floor. Ammo is now more common, with you adding more rockets and cells than needed which is also a much needed change. Those two aspects weren't there in the old version and made me say "Oh, you think you're clever. Aren't you?" out loud. In general with you making it less of a pain this map is more enjoyable on UV, though I think 15 secrets is a bit too much. Is that green armor secret with exactly one Imp really necessary? I like how you made the last room with the Cyber an actual room with enemies than a silly excuse to trap you with Archies to end the map.

 

Yes, I've also found bugs. I don't know why I cannot get into the small room with two Chaingunners and one zombie where you can squish the zombiemen, or why there are missing textures at the start of the map near the SP_HOT shack. I also found myself getting stuck in a wall in that same building.

 

Well, to close this off I can only say that this version is waaay better than the old version, however would recommend playing it at least twice to enjoy it to its fullest, due to the switch hunting task and one Imp in a wallhump secret in case you really want to UV-MAX this map. My first playthrough was about a hour of pain with the E1M5 midi playing in the back, this playthrough was about 50 minutes. I can only admire the dedication of reworking an older map to make it look and play better after reading all of this feedback that you've gotten (though mine was kinda written in the heat of the moment). You have my respect!

 

I rate this version of this map a 4.9 out of 5 burnt-out fireplaces. Difficulty wise it is a solid 3 out of 5 tripping hazards, not too brutal and not too easy.

 

Have a nice day.

 

P.S. I don't know if saying "I played this version so you don't have to" was your motivation to rework this map, if it was then it only proves my theory that being slightly mean just makes people more motivated about certain projects.

[pampoo79]

thanks for revisiting! Glad you noticed improvements. Feedback is really important. Players have such different play styles and personal preferences. The reworking of the last room was definitely for you and I'm glad I did it.

 

5 minutes ago, thiccyosh said:

Is that green armor secret with exactly one Imp really necessary?

 

what do you mean, what does the one Imp have to do with it? Personally when a map throws a ton of monsters at me each time I pick up something nice it kinda wears me down. So I take it was too easy this time? I'll give you more hurting floor the next time .... ;)

 

@SP_FACE1 I bet you didn't get the secret behind the bed, right? No one seems to get it

[thiccyosh]

8 minutes ago, pampoo79 said:

So I take it was too easy this time?

 

No, that one Imp just makes 100% kills without going for 100% secrets more tedious. I guess every map has that-one-Imp™.

[Clippy]

8 hours ago, pampoo79 said:

So it's finally time to bumb this... Since my first post I have been working on the map almost daily. I played through countless times without secrets, ensuring ammo is just right. I tried making every situation fair, every secret not too obvious but always giving enough hint, used monsters best fitting for all situations etc. No stone was left unturned, no texture unaligned (ok lets not fool ourselves, there will probably always be bugs). Many places got smaller aesthetic overhauls, but also several bigger ones. Every feedback I got I treated as valid and implemented change.

 

It would especially be cool if @Clippy gave this another try and maybe even @thiccyosh too (that "I played this version so you don't have to" stuck with me). Maybe despite everything don't go UV.. And a remember to everyone not to ignore any blue switch. Constructive criticism still welcome. Further info and download in the OP

 

I tried it again. I always felt bad for my reaction last time, but I played the original and not the director cut as I should of and I struggled so hard to the point that I didn't have fun. I don't think I was having a good day lol

 

Flash forward to now and @Biodegradable joined me for extra commentary. It was a lot more enjoyable this time around - I got better equipped early and had a better time to rip and tear instead of slog and struggle. Enjoy secrets as always but the problem I have is with the mandatory blue buttons all over the map. At the end one eluded me completely and I had to cheat through the door, sorry - just didn't want to spend all day on it and vid was running long. I hope you enjoy my play and our commentary and this sheds more light on your map - a very passionate project with 25 years of love I can tell. I do hope to see you venture into some new maps as I would gladly attempt them

 

kudos

 

 

[SP_FACE1]

6 hours ago, pampoo79 said:

@SP_FACE1 I bet you didn't get the secret behind the bed, right? No one seems to get it

 

Had to check what you meant by the secret behind the bed and launched the map again. Yeah, I missed it. I didn't realize the button had two actions. :)

[pampoo79]

@Clippy Hey great to see your playthrough! I actually found the video in my Youtube feed before you posted it, that was a fun moment. I had been giving you a reverse sub last time. Yeah about the blue buttons. I realized they were a bad idea to begin with and that's one reason why I made the Directors Cut where I removed them. The other reason being the last 2 areas of the map didn't feel like they belonged to the map any more due to differing themes. Like @Biodegradable correctly stated, I just kept on mapping when I should have stopped, but I was young and full of energy lol. So I did remove those areas from the Directors Cut, that's why they felt new. But by then doing a lof of retexturing etc I managed to "bring it all together". I felt like I could stay true to the original vision of the map and still have a somewhat cohesive experience. That's why I also decided to keep the blue buttons in - it's just what it is and with the little added scripting event I think it is still flawed but reasonable enough for me. About the event itself or the animation - I have the option of either showing the scene a fixed amount of time, or alternatively until the player cancels it by moving. I decided for the latter because I thought the player might grow tired of seeing the door open animation over and over again. So often you skipped the scene by moving. Should I switch that to a fixed amount? I think that especially for the first time it's important to give the player enough time to grasp what they're seeing.

 

So the missing button, I think Biodegredabale was a good help to you and I loved hearing the double commentary but at that point he totally sabotaged you haha ("can I get there?" "No. You'll get there later"). And I bet if you watch the video again at that point you also realize you how get there. It's still surprising to me how unintuitive it is, the idea certainly isn't new.

 

Anyway, thanks for playing (again), to you both apparently!

 

 

19 hours ago, thiccyosh said:

That switch that was hidden behind a room only accessable via fake Bfall? Now the Bfall texture is translucent to indicate that you can actually walk through it now

 

see, it's still not enough haha. First I opened up that space near the ground to indicate that there's a path around that middle area. But that wasn't enough so I had the idea with the translucent bfall. I mean I could take out the bfall comletely. I think that's what I'm gonna do. I'll just make the sector behind the TP a bit dark so it's still somewhat of a puzzle. Yeah..nice.

 

13 hours ago, SP_FACE1 said:

Had to check what you meant by the secret behind the bed and launched the map again. Yeah, I missed it. I didn't realize the button had two actions. :) 

Clippy also didn't get it. But well, some secrets are hard, some arent. Thats just what it is.

Edited January 30, 2022 by pampoo79