Heretic: The Way Raven Did?

[Rudolph]

I hope it is okay for me to post this, since Heretic is technically a Doom game - or at the very least, a Doom total conversion.

 

So I recently played through "Doom: The Way Id Did" and "Doom II: The Way Id Did" (as well as their spin-offs), and I was wondering: has there ever been a similar project in regard to Heretic? If not, are there plans for it?

 

I am asking because so far, I could only find single-episode replacements as well as one community project.

[OkDoomer174]

I don't think such a thing exists! There probably isn't enough interest in the community for such a thing (at least there doesn't appear to be), but if somebody decided to do it, I wouldn't be surprised if it picked up a little bit of steam; after all, look at Scattered Evil. It's a whole megawad/partial conversion for Hexen. If there's enough interest to turn Hexen into a full-blown RPG, then surely there are people who would love to do a DTWID-style Heretic or Hexen project.

[LadyMistDragon]

It doesn't quite have that audience, it seems like @Egregor, bless his heart, made two separate attempts at megawad-length CPs that only ended up a single episode in the end. I could only imagine making one for even the first 3 episodes.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by LadyMistDragon

[Matthias]

If such a project will be launched, I am in!

[Dusty_Rhodes]

I would love to do something in this vein. Heretic mapping is pretty fun, kinda like Doom 1 mapping, but with more interesting enemies, water and wind effects, and powerups. Sadly I think development would be very slow.

[Astronomical]

I don't think that a project like this would take off as well, it would be cool to see, however the design philosophies of Romero, Peterson, McGee and others are far more well known than ...

 

Wait who designed Heretic's levels?

[LadyMistDragon]

In an interview someone once linked, Michael Raymond-Judy edited basically all of them, but beyond that, it doesn't seem to be known who initially started and did most of the work on each map.

 

link to interview reproduction

Edited December 4, 2021 by LadyMistDragon

[RHhe82]

I would love such a thing, I could even think about participating, although I don't know if I'd be qualified - I've played Heretic far less than Doom, but I still like it. Darn, I think I need to try out some of the modern Heretic pwads sometime...

[printz]

I don't think you really need to trouble yourselves over how "Raven did it". Heretic is cohesive and concise enough as it is, and all the high quality vanilla Heretic map-only PWADs already look like how Raven would have made them. Here are the rules Raven followed:

1. All original series non-boss level names start with "the" (this rule doesn't apply for the expansion series names)
2. None of the original series boss level names start with "the"
3. Most of the expansion series levels are named after religious rituals
4. The original episodes seem to follow these themes: medieval city (with sea connection), volcanic island (also with glaciers which defy physics) and thermal baths.
5. The expansion series levels employ some form of segregation, by only having certain species per level. They tend to mostly mash up all styles, so they're less memorable.
6. All levels follow the yellow-green-blue key order. Early levels tend to have fewer keys, in which case it's yellow or yellow-green.
7. All locked doors are flanked with orb statues
8. Only use one kind of switch for miscellaneous activations, and the other kind of switch only for exits.
9. Switches are always recessed the same way (unless you must use a linedef's lower edge, but do it rarely)
10. All free doors are wooden panel. All locked doors are steel panels.
11. Exit doors also have their own specific design and are mandatory.
12. Other doors, such as the more ornate ones, are never operated directly by player.
13. All teleporters have red glitters on top of a specially textured pad.
14. All walk-over exits have blue glitters (on top of a specially textured pad) and tend to appear in episodes 2 and up.

You'll be annoyed how rarely the random Heretic idgames obey these rules, but the more competent maps apply them naturally, with slight variation.

Edited December 4, 2021 by printz

[Rudolph]

I wonder if it would be possible to reimagine Heretic II as a Heretic PWAD.

[Xaser]

A "HTWRD" project is kind of a tricky proposition because Heretic's "style" is a lot more loosely defined than Doom's, IMO -- e.g. compare Guard Tower with most of the other maps in the game, and there's a pretty stark quality/style difference. It's like Doom's Romero and Petersen contrast cranked up to 11. :P

[magicsofa]

Us Heretic fans are starved for wads - we'll take anything half decent.

As far as "the way Raven did," I agree with others that there's no pressing reason to try emulating their map design closely. I've played the entire game more than once and it's overall enjoyable to me, but the maps themselves I think fall into the competent-but-not-incredible category. DTWID came about after so many years of doom mapping evolution, and part of the point was to sort of "rebel" against the modern tropes in an effort to recapture the Old Magic. Don't get me wrong, the Heretic wads that we do have often show similar modern styles, but it doesn't feel like there is a special gap for "classic" maps. It's kinda just one giant gap for the game itself.

I would prefer a project that doesn't mind straying a bit from the style of the IWAD. There is a lot of room to do things they never did in the original game - like short-and-sweet maps, maps focused around specific artifacts (looking at you time bomb), maps making great use of ice and wind, etc. 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

4 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

Us Heretic fans are starved for wads - we'll take anything half decent.

As far as "the way Raven did," I agree with others that there's no pressing reason to try emulating their map design closely. I've played the entire game more than once and it's overall enjoyable to me, but the maps themselves I think fall into the competent-but-not-incredible category. DTWID came about after so many years of doom mapping evolution, and part of the point was to sort of "rebel" against the modern tropes in an effort to recapture the Old Magic. Don't get me wrong, the Heretic wads that we do have often show similar modern styles, but it doesn't feel like there is a special gap for "classic" maps. It's kinda just one giant gap for the game itself.

I would prefer a project that doesn't mind straying a bit from the style of the IWAD. There is a lot of room to do things they never did in the original game - like short-and-sweet maps, maps focused around specific artifacts (looking at you time bomb), maps making great use of ice and wind, etc. 

Probably the best answer, I think maybe ultra compact, difficult maps like Scythe translated into in Heretic could be very cool. Lots of other styles you could go after too. I'd love to be a part of a Heretic CP. Lots of potential there.

[Master O]

16 minutes ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Probably the best answer, I think maybe ultra compact, difficult maps like Scythe translated into in Heretic could be very cool. Lots of other styles you could go after too. I'd love to be a part of a Heretic CP. Lots of potential there.

 

Heretic slaughtermaps while flying around the level.  >:D

[Not Jabba]

Heretic is a neat game from a mapping perspective, but "the Way Raven Did" is probably the last thing I'd want to do with it. "How id Would Have Done" might be more interesting, as Romero, Petersen, and McGee probably would have done much more interesting things with the game's features. But to somewhat expand on what magicsofa said, Doom has been a much-loved game with a huge volume of mapping, which has evolved down many different paths. It's a game whose modding community has explored seemingly infinite possibilities, yet keeps finding new ways to make the game awesome. This also means that returning to classic ideas can be a useful way of re-grounding from time to time for many mappers.

 

With Heretic, there have been few releases, and there's been relatively little exploration of what the game can do. I don't think that treading the same ground as the IWAD is going to offer much or be the best use of the community's time, particularly since most of the original level design isn't that good. Hell, even now, decades later, you can release a Heretic map and still have people tell you you're doing it wrong because you didn't put the keys in the "right" order or follow every other rule in that one very specific ideology of what the game originally looked like. Like, come on. You've got to live a little.

[scwiba]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I am asking because so far, I could only find single-episode replacements as well as one community project.

A "Heretic the Way Raven Did" definitely doesn't exist, but if I may shamelessly self-promote for a moment, I did make a 28-map megawad for Heretic a couple years ago.

[rzh]

4 hours ago, magicsofa said:

I would prefer a project that doesn't mind straying a bit from the style of the IWAD. There is a lot of room to do things they never did in the original game - like short-and-sweet maps, maps focused around specific artifacts (looking at you time bomb), maps making great use of ice and wind, etc. 

Here's everything you could have asked for :P

2 hours ago, Ryath (aka scwiba) said:

A "Heretic the Way Raven Did" definitely doesn't exist, but if I may shamelessly self-promote for a moment, I did make a 28-map megawad for Heretic a couple years ago.

 

[OkDoomer174]

3 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

"How id Would Have Done" might be more interesting, as Romero, Petersen, and McGee probably would have done much more interesting things with the game's features.

I want to play this. Not in a year, not in a month, not tomorrow. Now. Right now.

[Rudolph]

Good to see there is at least some enthusiasm for a project of the kind! 

 

I would organize one myself, but I know nothing about mapping... :S

Edited December 5, 2021 by Rudolph

[Marisa the Magician]

Why not a "Heretic In Name Only" instead, then?

[Captain Toenail]

I would be interested in a Heretic megawad.

 

I would suggest a strong theme for each episode with a matching custom sky, but otherwise let the mappers do whatever they like in their own style within the theme.

e.g. an episode focused on swampy outdoor areas, an episode in a strange magical void, an episode in a frosty world of ice, an episode in a fiery volcanic lair, or something along those lines. Not necessarily the original episode themes.

 

Another suggestion would be to replace the tall brown pillar decoration with a tree for natural outside areas as Heretic is lacking in that area.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Captain Toenail

[ReaperAA]

20 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I am asking because so far, I could only find single-episode replacements as well as one community project.

 

Well there is the Faithless Trilogy megawad by Jimmy.

 

But yeah, there aren't many megawads for Heretic out there (the number of Heretic megawads can be counted on one hand). Most stuff is single episodic.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

Well there is the Faithless Trilogy megawad by Jimmy.

I guess so, but it seems to turn Heretic into Hexen with the hub-style progression.

[ReaperAA]

4 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I guess so, but it seems to turn Heretic into Hexen with the hub-style progression.

 

It is actually a bit of mix of both. It is not has switch hunt'y as Hexen, but certainly doesn't have tradition levels like Doom and Heretic.

[boris]

5 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

It is actually a bit of mix of both. It is not has switch hunt'y as Hexen, but certainly doesn't have tradition levels like Doom and Heretic.

 

It's the best of both worlds!

[Dusty_Rhodes]

22 minutes ago, boris said:

 

It's the best of both worlds!

That's what I was thinking!

[rzh]

4 hours ago, Captain Toenail said:

I would be interested in a Heretic megawad.

 

I would suggest a strong theme for each episode with a matching custom sky, but otherwise let the mappers do whatever they like in their own style within the theme.

e.g. an episode focused on swampy outdoor areas, an episode in a strange magical void, an episode in a frosty world of ice, an episode in a fiery volcanic lair, or something along those lines. Not necessarily the original episode themes.

 

Another suggestion would be to replace the tall brown pillar decoration with a tree for natural outside areas as Heretic is lacking in that area.

I just realized there aren't any proper grass textures in the game. I mean, there's that green flat that kind of looks like vegetation I guess? But yeah, for a game that spent a lot more time outdoors than Doom, there's little to no dedicated "outdoors" textures.

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

I guess so, but it seems to turn Heretic into Hexen with the hub-style progression.

It actually fits Heretic more than you might think. Although I'm biased because I love hub-style progression. Both Hexen and STALKER have it, and they are both in my top 3 games of all time.

[Rudolph]

@rzh I am not saying it is bad, I am just saying that it feels more like Hexen than Heretic to me.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Rudolph

[rzh]

7 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

@rzh I am not saying it is bad, I am just saying that it feels more like Hexen than Heretic to me.

Oh, I didn't assume you believed it was a bad thing, I wanted to say that I kinda like it.

[Kinsie]

Would be interested in playing Heretic But With More Than Five Textures