Stupid Linedef Limits

[Lutz]

I have made some big, complex levels in the past, but for the first time I have managed to exceed the linedef limit (with the damn level only 2/3 complete) -- I suspect a combination of gradient lighting and and natural rock formations, plus some stupidly unnecessary floor details that probably should just be a texture.

 

First of all: DAMMIT.

 

Second: are there .WAD formats that support an increased number of linedefs, or is that an inflexible DOOM limitation?

 

Third: I'm certain other folks have been in this situation -- what did you do?  How did you go about re-working your creations, or did you scrap them altogether?

 

Forth: DAMMIT!

 

[boris]

UDMF. For example Bastion of Chaos has over 126000 linedefs (and over 232000 sidedefs).

[Borg]

I love big complex levels, but holy shit! This one must be a monster. What is your source port?

[Dusty_Rhodes]

50 minutes ago, Borg said:

I love big complex levels, but holy shit! This one must be a monster. What is your source port?

That's what I want to know. Maybe he's doing vanilla mapping, and the level can't be much bigger than late Eternal Doom maps. However, if he's using Boom / MBF I really gotta see it. Must be massive.

 

Also, OP, would you consider breaking the level into two or three maps? It's a not the best, but it would be possible. Also, maybe simplifying lighting or floors designs would help. I love gradient lighting, but if the map crashes it isn't worth it in my opinion. How big were your earlier maps? I'd love to play them!

[Lutz]

Thanks, all, for the quick responses -- answers (and follow-up questions) below:

 

- The map format is (currently) BOOM/MBF (though I am using ZDoom for testing)

 

- I don't think the map is that big (at least by playable area), but again, there are thousands of lines devoted to various light gradients and rock/lava formations

 

- The layout is pretty dense and fairly inter-connected, so it would be hard to break it up into multiple maps; also, it looks the way I want it to, so I am hesitant to simplify too much -- I'd almost rather scrap it completely than have to "dumb it down" too far

 

- Is it possible I am running into a DoomBuilder 2 limit rather than a .WAD format limit?

 

- Were I to convert it to UDMF, it sounds like it would be pretty seamless EXCEPT for these lines in the Doom Wiki:
 

Quote

 

Doom format to UDMF

Every tagged sector needs to get added a 'dropactors = true;' line to remain compatible.

 

 

What does that mean?

 

Also, here's a shot of 80% of the level (grid=256) -- lots of lines, but it doesn't *feel* huge, so I'm surprised I hit a limit...

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lutz

[Afterglow]

What are the lump counts shown in DoomBuilder's bottom right when no linedef/sector is highlighted? When beyond static limits, DB2 highlights it in red.

 

 

The DB2 family of editors (including DBX & UDB) will auto-compress SIDEDEFS if they go beyond the limit but truthfully the SEGS lump has its limits reached before LINEDEFS/SIDEDEFS. I check that using SLADE:

 

 

The SEGS limit of boom.exe was 2^15 = 32768 but PrBoom+, Eternity Engine, Woof, etc. raise that to 2^16 - 1 = 65535.

 

I have a limit-removing map about the size of your automap screenshot and I had to cull some details because it was hitting both 65k SEGS and the blockmap limit.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Afterglow

[Bauul]

I ran into the exact same issue a few years back with one of my first maps, so made this handy guide to the Linedef limits in Doom's map formats:

 

 

 

Depending on exactly what Linedef counts you're running into, this should give you an idea of how far you can go before you need to change to UDMF.

 

 

[CenturionX]

On 12/4/2021 at 4:28 PM, Lutz said:

I'm currently working one that has over106,000 linedefs, and counting

 

 

[Graf Zahl]

UDMF can definitely handle it and DSDA's UDMF support is well on its way so you wouldn't even lose compatibility with a classic port.

You got to be aware of potential slowdowns, though, the area to the right may bring the engine to its knees.

 

On 12/5/2021 at 5:17 AM, Lutz said:

What does that mean?

 

Normally nothing. It may only be an issue with very fast lifts. As long as you just convert a Boom-format map the feature guarded by 'dropactors' will not become an issue.

 

[Dreamskull]

Wow and here I thought I was sitting high and mighty with 19000 trimmed down

Edited March 30, 2023 by Dreamskull

[IcarusOfDaggers]

In ultimate doombuilder, you can change format via Edit -> map options. Beware! All linedef actions need to be afjusted oncöiding scrollers

[CittyKat112]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:17 AM, Lutz said:

Thanks, all, for the quick responses -- answers (and follow-up questions) below:

 

- The map format is (currently) BOOM/MBF (though I am using ZDoom for testing)

 

- I don't think the map is that big (at least by playable area), but again, there are thousands of lines devoted to various light gradients and rock/lava formations

 

- The layout is pretty dense and fairly inter-connected, so it would be hard to break it up into multiple maps; also, it looks the way I want it to, so I am hesitant to simplify too much -- I'd almost rather scrap it completely than have to "dumb it down" too far

 

- Is it possible I am running into a DoomBuilder 2 limit rather than a .WAD format limit?

 

- Were I to convert it to UDMF, it sounds like it would be pretty seamless EXCEPT for these lines in the Doom Wiki:
 

 

What does that mean?

 

Also, here's a shot of 80% of the level (grid=256) -- lots of lines, but it doesn't *feel* huge, so I'm surprised I hit a limit...

PLEASE POST SCREENSHOTS OF YOUR MAP IN 3D MODE BRO!!!