[Community Project] Thirty Monsters Challenge [See you in the other thread!]

[dac]

5 hours ago, Chainie said:

Map Name: Cadence

Author: Chainie

Theme: Gothic/hell

Music: "Grave Town, Live Version" by Mark Klem

Difficulty Settings: not implemented yet

Ports Tested: Prboom 2.5.1.4, DSDA-Doom-0.21.3, Chocolate-Doom 3.0.0

Description: Map, mostly inspired by Chord series by Malcolm Sailor
Notes: I'll add Difficulty Settings later. And balance still needs a bit of tweaking imo, but it's already pretty playable. This map occupies map01 slot, but i'd like to have this map on the later slots. RSKY1 is replaced by RSKY3 from gothicdm, but it itsn't so important , so feel free to not include sky in compilation
30mc_Chainie.zip

 

Very lovely map, loved the visuals in it. A bit tight on ammo, but it fits well with the overall encounter style. The final arch-vile is a tricky one if you're going for UVMAX, but otherwise it just killed me straight into the map exit lol

 

Slot wise, it will probably be among the first maps of episode 2 - there's a few tricky spots, ammo as mentioned is scarce and you need to watch your step to not get caught too much in the environment, but overall there's nothing overly nasty in it.

 

Also I can add the new sky, but since the texture pack has a new palette I just want to make sure this looks fine:

 

Spoiler

 

[Bobby :D]

Does it count as 30 monsters if you are fighting the same monsters over and over but brought back to life again?

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bobby "J

[dac]

7 minutes ago, Bobby "J said:

Does it count as 30 monsters if you are fighting the same monsters over and over but brought back to life again?

Arch-vile revives do not count as extra monsters.

[myolden]

Since we're on the subject of death exits I went ahead and added one to my map.

 

The death exit in this map is a voodoo doll script that telefrags the player and ends the map at the same time. Works pretty well, not sure if someone else figured this out before I did but I use it in all my maps with death exits. If anyone wants to use it in theirs feel free.

 

30mc_myolden v2.zip

[Bobby :D]

11 minutes ago, dac said:

Arch-vile revives do not count as extra monsters.

:). I'll hold you that in a month

Edited February 5, 2022 by Bobby "J

[Biodegradable]

Terrific little map @Chainie! You never fail to impress and dazzle me with your fun layouts and cheeky combat.

 

 

[LPad]

30mc_LPad3.rar

 

Map Name: Agnosia

Author: LPad

Theme: Sky/Black

Music: "Cave" by Korp

Difficulty Settings: not implemented yet, UV default.

Ports Tested: DSDA-Doom, GZDoom

Description: A weird map with a secret puzzle. I don't really know what to say about it... a e s t h e t i c
Notes: The map uses some tricks to make the rooms look like they do. Many times I found something was broken, fixed it and then was broken again when building other zones, so I really hope this version has no bugs left. In any case feedback would be really appreciated. 

The Red Key is optional, you get it through solving the puzzle. It's just for having 100% kills. 

[El Inferno]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4fj1fyoql5nh7m/30mc_inferno.wad?dl=0

 

 

Map Name: Neter-Khertet

Author: El Inferno

Theme: Egypt

Music: MIDI version of "TheWayGrotesque" from MapleStory, originally Epic 2 map 30

Difficulty Settings: Implemented

Ports Tested: DSDA 0.24, not sure if works properly in gzd

Description: Neter-Khertet is one of the names of the realm of the dead in ancient Egyptian mythology. 

Notes: UV is very hard. Recommend HMP or lower for first playthroughs. Uses a certain mapping trick which I hope is acceptable for this project. Uses BossDeath umapinfo special.

 

 

[MFG38]

Updated my map with a death exit. Also did an extremely small detail tweak that no one is likely to notice.

30mc_mfg38_v3.zip

[DMPhobos]

I've been silent on this for a while, but just to give an update that i haven't forgotten about this, i'll be starting my map in the next few days

[SCF]

Quicksand! by @Astro X

Spoiler

• I liked the opening fight. Pretty simple but effective.
• I noticed the archviles have a tendency to run laps around the arena, so if the one you're not fighting doesn't target you right away he'll run out of range and you have plenty of time to kill the first one.
• In the first half of the map all progress is triggered by switches, so it was mildly annoying when picking up the BFG immediately unleashed the cyberdemons. I wasn't ready and didn't save so I had to do the previous fight again.
• The exit switch is also a bit obtuse. When you pick up the BFG you're probably too occupied with all the enemies that appear to notice a lift lowering behind you. And when you've dealt with all the monsters, the only way to continue is to move up to the now-empty pedestal which feels kinda weird. And since the map is very symmetrical you have to guess which side the BFG was on.

 

Cadence by @Chainie

Spoiler

Nice map, good use of lighting and vanilla textures. A little cramped. Not too much so in most places, but the first corridor where the revenant spawns behind you is hard to move around in, and it seemed like the pinky at the blue key couldn't get out either. And speaking of the blue key fight, the revenants that appear on the low ground are no threat at all since they can't really hit you. The slow lift was a little annoying, mostly because a resurrected mancubus rode back up before I could kill him, and then didn't come down so I had to wait for another cycle.

 

Agnosia by @LPad

Spoiler

Very unique and surreal map. Took a moment to get used to how it works (and to find the way out of the second room), but it

 

The only part I didn't like were the chaingunners in the blue key room. Not sure if there's anything you can do except just run around quickly hitting the switches before you lose too much life. The cover doesn't actually provide any cover.

 

I completely skipped the red key puzzle though.

 

Neter-Khertet by @El Inferno

Spoiler

The start of the map confused me a little. When I found the passage behind bloody wall, I wasn't sure if it was a secret or the intended route because I didn't see a secret tag right away. So I went back first and got the shotgun and armor, but then the secret gets closed off. So I restarted, went to the secret first, and got stuck because I didn't have enough chaingun ammo to kill the enemies. Did I miss something?

 

Speaking of missing something, I totally didn't get what was going on with the first real fight. I kept killing revenants until I ran out of ammo, wondering just how many of them were going to teleport in. I had no idea their corpses were getting revived somewhere else until I got tired of trying and checked the map. It's a very clever setup, but I already wasted enough time that I didn't feel like continuing for now (at least not past the point where the pinkies get added into the mix). I'll probably play it again another time. I also couldn't tell if the slight movement of the floor was throwing off my rocket dodging or if I was just having a really bad day.

 

[SCF]

@El Inferno

Finished the map now. I played it on UV so I could compare it to the other maps on the same difficulty, and I think this is easily the hardest one in the set so far. All in all, my first impression was pretty rough but I do think the fights are good once you get the idea.

 

Spoiler

The blood pits in the first secret and exit room are instant death, but there's a couple others that don't kill you (throne room, second secret, after the cyber fight), and if you fall in it's just a softlock. At least, I didn't see any way to escape.

 

The cyberdemon fight is another great application of the resurrection gimmick. The one thing I didn't like though is that you have no idea how long you have to wait for (and it's pretty long). If the bars were moving it would at least be clear that that's your cue, but instead nothing happens for a long time and then the gate opens. By the way, I don't know if this was intentional, but I realized that you can lure revenants onto the platform where the cyberdemon started, and kill them on there so they don't move and get revived. It's not exactly reliable but it helped a little.

 

I have no useful comments on the platforming, other than they were challenging enough that apart from the chaingun secret, I cheated after failing the first few tries. Also, I never figured out how to get the chaingun and live.

 

 

 

[El Inferno]

Thanks for feedback @SCF, 

Spoiler

Only very deep pits are insta death, other blood pools don't do damage. Some of them are indeed intentional softlocks, just because I like doing stuff like this in such unfriendly maps (why there should be a way out?), but I will change that (add damage or way to escape) if it doesn't fit the project.

 

The bar lowers after the cyberdemon death, I used a umapinfo special for that. Don't know how to telegraph that better. The trick to lure revs on the platform is intended, yeah.

 

For the chaingun secret the idea is to block off one rev tele destination and release it after hellknight shoots you to create infighting.

 

[Thelokk]

2 hours ago, El Inferno said:

Thanks for feedback @SCF, 

  Hide contents

Only very deep pits are insta death, other blood pools don't do damage. Some of them are indeed intentional softlocks, just because I like doing stuff like this in such unfriendly maps (why there should be a way out?), but I will change that (add damage or way to escape) if it doesn't fit the project.

 

The bar lowers after the cyberdemon death, I used a umapinfo special for that. Don't know how to telegraph that better. The trick to lure revs on the platform is intended, yeah.

 

For the chaingun secret the idea is to block off one rev tele destination and release it after hellknight shoots you to create infighting.

 

 

Spoiler

To be 100% honest the softlock pits irked me a bit as well in my playthrough. If the player falls in they are meant to restart the level anyway, might as well at least kill them to save them a manual reload. It's a bit immersion breaking imo, and a bit too much of a bummer. But that's only my two cents! 

 

[Astro X]

My submissions: (sorry for the delay)

 

Map Name: Victorian [previously Man the boat]

Author: Astro X

Theme: dungeon, outdoors, marble

Music: Ghostly, by Ribbiks

Difficulty Settings: UV only

Ports Tested: GZDoom

Description: A somewhat chaotic arena that opens up into yet another larger and even more frantic arena.

Notes: The open area may require some luck but most of the time it's very manageable.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TD2Au3QiFM3r9_8J7P0OKc6aDPRuwQUl/view?usp=sharing

 

Map Name: Quicksand!

Author: Astro X

Theme: bricks, metal, dungeon, lava

Music: Dead in the water, by Jimmy

Difficulty Settings: UV only

Ports Tested: GZDoom

Description: A 1-room-ish dungeon with varied combat.

Notes: The cyberdemons fight is actually pretty tricky; strategy needs to be accurate, but nothing too crazy.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oqCI9hFMTSrRGNqr8pVqtJm6By1TsFLN/view?usp=sharing

[El Inferno]

Playing through the beta compilation right now. Some thoughts below. Sorry if some of these were already addressed before.

Map10 - I wish the secret bfg could be obtained in the final room, having to find another secret to lower it is kinda meh

Spoiler

This doesn't look right

Map12 - this was a significant difficulty spike for me here, had to replay the map several times to conserve enough ammo to kill everything. Later I found out that I missed 100 bullets which caused me some trouble. Liked the map because it was the first map in the set which made me think about ammo management and what am I doing.

Map13 - when you drop to the room with the vile you can shoot pillars without waking him up and can clear some monsters this way. Not sure if that makes fight easier but you might want to tweak the sound blocking lines a bit.

Map14 - Great concept, really enjoyed this map. Took me a while to figure out how to escape the fight with 6 arachnotrons, would suggest to make a separate switch which lowers the lift. 

The final fight is pretty insane, I tried to beat it for maybe a half an hour without much success, then went to find remaining secrets (I missed RL, ssg and megaarmor first time) and after that if wasn't too bad because I could rocket down some arachno before viles arrive. Maybe I was doing something wrong but this is some crazy difficulty for map14 slot imo. Took me a while to figure out the switches at the end, had to consult the editor and was actually thinking that the map broke. I found all secrets except megaarmor without cheats but it was very difficult. There's also a lot of random stuff visible on automap (gl), which confused me a lot, suppose it's intentional (and I don't mind really).

Spoiler

Tiny hom on the floor in this area

 

Don't have much to say about ep 1, easy maps, had fun. Stopped at map14 for now.

[El Inferno]

Played the rest of the maps in the last couple of days. Notes below

Map15 - Maybe add monster block lines near arachno tower in the final area, they tend to get stuck a lot after being revived. And also monsters which happened to die nearby.

Map17 - BKC fight is extremely cramped and awkward, didn't really enjoy it. Rest and final fight are fine, but I'd make black walls a bit further away from platforms because getting splashed from void is not cool. 

Map21 - Felt kinda easier than 19 and 20.

Map22 - You can do a vile jump to get BSK, which basically skips most of the map. I liked it though since you can release cyb earlier and ssging mancs isn't that fun anyway. A bit annoying gameplay and basic visuals.

Map24 - The exit it a bit hard to see

Map27 - Nice totg01 reference at the start. The main fight reminds of a fight in Sanguine Cybermancy by Xulgonoth. It might be possible to vile jump to the exit but I couldn't do that easily.

Map29 - Didn't find this too difficult but I really liked the concept. Might be an interesting idea to remove initial bullets and shells from the floor and force player to farm it from revived dudes, you'll have to do that for quite a bit to farm enough to be able to kill the cyber at the end, so you'll be going back and forth between teleporters to get more ammo etc. In the current state the ending cyb is kinda dull because I had enough shells to shotgun it without worrying about ammo at all (I only had to make sure a shotgunner got revived, chaingunning viles is no big deal either). I like this as a penultimate map but would move to an earlier slot otherwise since it's pretty easy (25, 27, 28 are harder imo)

Map30 - Makes sense why this map is on this slot. Beginning is pretty rough, I think not shooting until manc or revs die is the way to go. I loved the secret fight, not sure how consistently you can do it, but I enjoy this kind of stuff.

 

Fun stuff overall, 30 monsters is more than enough to make some engaging combat. Hardest and most exhausting map for me personally was 14.

Edited February 11, 2022 by El Inferno

[OverflowingMocha]

So uh, added that death exit thing to my map.

I didn't really do any changes besides that, I think my map is fine as it is. Don't know why it is the first map in the tricky episode, I thought Demon electrica was harder (and better) than my own map, plus I wouldn't mind getting my map switched to an earlier slot. I'm not the one in charge of the map slots after all.

 

30mc_LGmaire_v3

 

I'm glad that people liked my crappy map, this map is my first ever public map uploaded here to doomworld. Not my first map ever made, I have made some stuff before, it's just that those other maps aren't public yet.

 

That makes me more happy and confident about map making and seeing critisism about my stuff.

 

So, if you have something to say about this map, feel free to tell me. :P

Edited February 12, 2022 by LGmaire

[Bri]

5 hours ago, LGmaire said:

I'm glad that people liked my crappy map, this map is my first ever public map uploaded here to doomworld. Not my first map ever made, I have made some stuff before, it's just that those other maps aren't public yet.

 

That makes me more happy and confident about map making and seeing critisism about my stuff.

 

So, if you have something to say about this map, feel free to tell me. :P

 

Your map isn't crappy. It's one of the best looking ones in the set and plays really well. I would definitely check out more releases from you.

[dac]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:15 PM, LGmaire said:

I'm glad that people liked my crappy map, this map is my first ever public map uploaded here to doomworld. Not my first map ever made, I have made some stuff before, it's just that those other maps aren't public yet.

 

That makes me more happy and confident about map making and seeing critisism about my stuff.

 

So, if you have something to say about this map, feel free to tell me. :P

 

I will echo what was already said, your map isn't crappy at all. And for a first public release, it's actually really impressive! I mean, it was good enough to be an episode opener, and will probably remain in the first three maps of that episode.

[LPad]

Map Name: Tourmaline Turmoil

Author: LPad

Theme: Gothic

Music: "Tainted with Taunts" by LPad

Difficulty Settings: Implemented

Ports Tested: DSDA-Doom and GZDoom

Description: A small bullet hellish map. High difficulty, but had a lot of fun testing it nevertheless. It encourages you to keep moving all the time and being conscious about your surroundings. 

Notes: Once you clear the area around a key, things start getting easier, but that will take some effort. The only two difficult things when doing pacifist are the pain elemental and the blue key area. I'm still not successful with it, though.

30mc_LPad4.rar

 

Also, an update on "Agnosia".

Flipped the orientation of some cover areas in the Blue Key battle. There is more cover now as long as you step into the holes. It has difficulty settings implemented now, too.

30mc_LPad3v2.rar

 

 

[Biodegradable]

@LPad

 

 

[LPad]

47 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

@LPad

 

 

@Biodegradable I have no idea how the pain elemental went behind the chaingunners, but that wasn't supposed to happen. I'll fix that.

Thank you for playing it! And also thanks for playing two of the other maps I made. It's always fun to watch :) In this particular case it really felt like a descent into madness. 

[alexsa2015sa]

Updated my submission:

30mcalexsa2015sa_v5.zip

Changes:

- Added more shotguns UV on every route, removed several clipboxes and shells, keeping total ammo damage
- Added more detailing/lighting to main hub room and other places
- Cleaned up automap some more; textured automap is unfriendly in Doom-format so ignoring that
- Increased timer for lock-in of final arena from 2nd vile to 3rd vile, but reduced timer for first exit's opening
- Split blue room lift from plasma gun pedestal (timer is too short to do both anyways)
- Added a death exit. Why are we adding death exits again? Eh, whatever.

Also a bunch of pointless and randomly distracted feedback because I finally got around to it.

Spoiler

Overall impression: Way too many cyberdemons. I hate to say it but the few maps which bothered using Spider Masterminds used them more interesting than several of cyberdemon maps, especially ep1. In few cases, cyberdemon felt like an attempt to make map hard for no particular reason and ignoring how incredibly easy the rest of map is, sometimes falling short of E2M8 in difficulty, and I do not consider that a particularly interesting map to begin with. Sure, you still die if you try taking it easy, but there probably needs to be more padding monsters/maps (says someone who did not use anything softer than revenant for UV, heh)

Obsidian Ravine: map01 - Walter confetti
Rocketlauncher, plasma gun and berserk? High-power to be sure, but if you shoot too much you do not actually have enough rockets to last for Archvile with no real cover (yikes) and at the point it spawns you might not have plasmagun yet so it gets hairy. Definitely did not feel map01 vibes here, especially with straightforward no-cover cyberdemon in small space, unless the intention is to make player warned that these maps are not easy.

Trapped in Remnants: map02 - RastaManGames
I feel this makes a better introduction map... in some aspects. It's small and cute and easy, as opposed to suddenly cyberdemon of Obsidian Ravine, even if you can skip the boss. In my opinion, it is probably the best of submissions so far for this slot, but it actually doesn't have much to do with what most other submissions do because they are all much, much more deadly so from that point of view it is indeed a bad MAP01. The most difficulty here is gunning down hitscanners before they mess you up.

Caco by Caco: map03 - Origamyde
Not much to comment - solid in general, but having played through everything cyberdemon is quite harmless here. Very easy if you know what is coming, with lots and lots and lots of space and cover. Archvile scare is pretty nice, here, if you do not know it's coming you will easily get zapped.

Vile Keep: map04 - ryiron

Soldi, not too difficult, and arguably easier than Obsidian Ravine again. Hiscanner ambush aside which may kill you dead if chaingunners is on point, mostly relaxed until the final with a still pretty forgiving SSG showdown. The most action until then is the mancubus/revenant room.

Blueberry Castle: map05 - DynamiteKaitorn
What is it with cyberdemons every map, honestly. Needing to kill one every other map is definitely not my understanding of fun; at least there is a BFG. Incidentally, you can skip the cyberdemon pacificst-style and doing so poses no difficulty whatsoever if you can dodge.

Azure Crypt: map06 - MFG38
Much of the level are low-tiers plus optional cyberdemon rocket duel which usually takes out everything in the way too. Tiny map and uncomplicated. Honestly feels more like a deathmatch map than a singleplayer one, and there isn't anything to do here - probably the most dull map overall in that aspect.

Dystrophia map07 - Scorpius
First half of the level was very, very nice and moody and never very difficult... the second is yet another cyberdemon rocket duel. Given the *previous* map featured an exact same setup (and meaner with limited rockets, there is an incredible amount of extra rockets here). Some of maps need spacing out because it was VERY boring with three very similar cyber showdowns in a row as final encounter. Not seeing an obvious way to revisit level after cyber battle ended was a letdown too.

Crate processing - map08 - lokbustam257
Not to call the map bad, but there is little going on here beyond running and sometimes shooting. The cratewall rooms look odd without even a hint of actual walls, some spaces clearly look like square walls. Overall easily the least difficult map, since most encounters without hitscanners can be outright escaped unlike map02 which requires running around.

Dismal Twilight - map09 - NeedHealth
All the hapless revenants you want. The double archvile start turned out much more threatening than anything else in the level, chaingunners included - for all I dislike chaingunners. The four imps trap was more of a jumpscare than threatening. I think the most memorable thing about this level was me getting lost and wandering 5 minutes until I finally found the yellow keycard, everything else went smoothly from there.

Demon Electrica - map10 - Bri
Hitscanners. Revenants. More hitscanners. Revenants again. Hated it undiscriminately, because you don't even get armor until you kill over third of the level (!) - five shotgunners, four chaingunners, three revenants and an archvile. This exact kind of map is why I hate playing Doom, even if it's well-done. Also, that final battle is a really tedious cyberdemon duel, since  everything else quickly dies whether you shoot it or not.

marine's snowiest base - map11 - LGmaire
Hot start with hitscanners; disliked it a lot, because it means I lost all health even before I saw the chaingunner. The rest of the map: nice, until it's chaingunners again.

Pitted Iron - map12 - Obsidian
Thematically very nice map! I'd love to see more of those but there is what there is.
Very nice combat overall; not hard, but then again with chaingun you don't want it to be.
Ab-so-lu-te-ly not a fan of forced sewage damage, made worse by mandatory repeat since the crowd likely stops you the first time and even more repeats if you have fat fingers or misjudge the opening as jumpable. Was it so difficult to put a radsuit? The ammo scarcity was mentioned by others; certainly needs one more ammo box (or access to 4 upper chainguns) from pistol start because non-berserk punching pinkies or especially lost souls in 2 tiny rooms is rarely someone's idea of fun. You cannot expect infighting to help with revenants and mancubi and enough wasted shots at mid-range quickly put you below safe threshold; revenants are thin.

Lapis Lazuli - map13 - ryiron
Don't really get why it is so early in the 2nd episode, because it is pretty hard.
The start on UV is nasty because not getting tagged by hitscanners is RNG-dependent and a single mistake means you lose all health thanks to chaingunner. The archvile segment is entertaining when you understand how it works, and I echo the sentiment of soundblocking lines needing work since pinkies start looking at you while archvile doesn't.
The cyberdemon encounter is not boring thankfully, but pain elementals don't really enter into difficulty, here. Worst case, you spend more cells.
The post-cyberdemon encounter is actually more deadly because it obviously expects you to still have leftover cells and health and no less than 80 of either. If you spent too much, it is more deadly than telegraphed cyberdemon; map played straight means you are running low on everything else too.

Spider Testament - map14
No comment, beyond "really, ep2?".

Tomb of Nephren-ka - map15 - PinkFlamingo
The first two encounters mostly drain ammo for mistake of killing things near the walls; the archviles in second might fry you if you let them live long enough or fail to separate them from bruisers. The spider mastermind encounter is pretty lethal unless you distract the boss properly. Overall probably more difficult than ep2, since last arena is pretty populated and no monster is wasted without infighting saving your ass.

Blu-ray pain - map16 - cannonball
Despite intimidating amount of heavies, much of the map can be cleared by infighitng without taking a single shot. Spider mastermind is handy like that, if you can avoid getting shot. Once you release the archviles, they can be removed quickly using the RL and corpse piles are often out of the way.
Overall fun map.

With time comes an end - map17 - Engired
A mean map, and probably a good Ep2 final. The very first room is pretty tense since the cover from archvile is very sparse and if you miss the ammo pain elemental is incredibly bad news.
Not a fan of platforming in south-eastern section, especially in cyberdemon section with practically invisible platforms without constrast edges. If you only have the rocket launcher, this is even worse since rockets take forever to kill it, so some forewarning of boss encounter won't be amiss.

30 / 30 / 3 - map18 - Parkolnaught
Slightly difficult, but mostly because it is RNG-dependent with mastermind, chaingunners and utter lack of durability being centerpieces and randomly choosing to kill you the moment you hesitate at a new popup, teleport or corner cross.
Arachnotrons can be ingored by blocking mastermind's line of sight - they have no lines of fire whatsoever; first set of hellknights and revenants are by themselves zero threat either (release them from turrets later maybe?).
Second set of hellknights can be blocked partly or fully - they end up near the south wall of telecloset if you block the teleport spots (which is easy). Need more failsafes here.
Overall, much easier than map17 as long as you luck into avoiding bullets from distance, so not sure what belongs where.

Windswept - map19 - Salmon
Pretty tricky, the first encounter instantly kills if you fail at anything at all, because there isn't really any safe space here until you clear the arachnotrons, chaingunners and revenants.
On the other hand, it is fun enough and second encounter is very forgiving if you save enough rockets to burn down the archvile fast and hug pillars after.

Hide and Sick - map20 - Shawn
Not very difficult, but very tiring map because there isn't much space to avoid archvile. I found it more interesting to shoot the nuisance and then punch/saw/self-harm through 200 hp remaining; its own pillar helps a lot.
It is EXTREMELY easy to escape gold key zone early and end up short of any weapons, because there is no other obvious way in. Worse, the teleport out is single-use. It is not just annoying, but lethal since archvile and revenants are all released to roam.

rapturous grief - map21 - myolden
The start fight is a pretty tight and nice piece.
Cyberdemon duel is... not very interesting here. Not a fan because it always drags on and it relies on cyberdemon rocketing the hellknights on schedule before they disperse too much to inhibit circle-strafing, and then it is SSG + Rockets again.
Final fight was tight but not very difficult, there is just enough space to move with the revenants.

patio bloodbah - map22 - Gaargod
I am not overstating the fact using cyberdemon rocket duels in so many maps bothers me a little tiny bit.
At least, this map actually has the rest of the map unlike map06, but it is very strange to see this kind of breather map in ep3. Even map18 is harder in its encounters, random fake walls aside. With some mental acrobatics I will not be surprised to see it ep01 - archvile pillar and chaingunner room are probably the most threatening things in the level and they aren't much of a problem.

caeco regno - map23 - LPad

Looks impressive, and turns out really mean in a good way with only shotgun and chaingun. Just enough opposition to make it fun, but not so much as to make it into grind. It only works as well as it does because of its limited arsenal, continuous really breaks the balance here. Main threats are shotgunners, archvile, revenants and pain elemental; everything else is an exercise at circle-strafing permanently.

wiltingdryad - map 24 - BENCHY

The armor secret could use a shortcut step back instead of forcing 8+ seconds sprint for teleporter, longer for blind run.
Looks nice, but very empty (which is probably half the reason small maps were specified, but still nice)

The last fight was somewhat difficult because the cover is scarce and ammo is limited so I kept running out of it.

irregularexpression - map 25 - SCF

Each individual fight is not very hard, it is the fact none allow much space for mistakes which is the issue.
Punching aside, zombieman encounter boils down to zombies distacting archvile. Pain elemental is especially easy if you pistol the arachnotron previously, unless it is intended... is it possible to stop from happening? Like, you have an idle archvile chilling out there, could use it for resurrection; just need to turn allowed space into 128 width one so the archvile always connects with hitbox in predictable place, and lock archvile's later spot so it doesn't run everywhere in its corridor.

Overall, nice and not unfairly hard with hitscanners.

Overgrown Fortress - Map 26 - finnks13
Hot start with archvile dickery means you lose health to something in the area. Very RNG-reliant on whether you even avoid the first zap - on -fast you do not unless you hide behind the pillar, and that is still a bad place to be. Otherwise, isn't actually too difficult after beginning cleanup, it is panicking and using wrong cover or rushing things that ends every next step of the run. It is also so quick it is probably closer to "short map".

Infernal engine - map27 - BiZ
Railroad start with tight ammo rationing and mandatory platforming was annoying, because I never
But that is an actually nice cybedemon duel! Immortal chaingunners denying you half the area compliment the barely-large-enough-to-dodge-splash encounter well. The second was overkill, though, with this dim lighting it takes a really overcorrected gamma to see anything and it is just more of the same run-and-gunning, and if you are slow enough you have two of them. I do not like long yet actually hard cyberdemon encounters even more than ones demanding a BFG two-shot, because the latter I can at least do randomly and here it's not possible without saving every other second.
The final encounter is easier, but still annoying because there isn't much safe cover until archvile dies - and if you spent cells this takes long time with SSG.

Misjudging the King - map28 - Bloodbath Giraffe
Not actually very hard despite 5 archviles and cyberdemon here. If anything, cyberdemon can be used to save ammo.
Level also does not have alarm mechanism so it can be cheesed until you collect everything and exited with 0 shots. Not that I consider it a bad thing.

That aside, it is pretty easy with lots and lots of safe space to move unlike the meaner maps, like map17. The archviles released from single spot with pain elementals makes their first wave completely safe with foreknowledge, and even without you'll see them before anything untoward can occur - retreating from first wave easily means no corpses are there.

-ANTI-LIFE- - Map29 - @Worriedidiot
Lots of fun (except the end if you fail to find BFG), but not a really difficult map outside its archvile/hitscanner gimmick. If anything, hitscanners make it easier if you let archviles move closer.

The start teleport is single use which isn't very alright, when there is no reason it can't be repeatable
The final cyber is nothing short of yawn, though. Could have as well released it into archvile mix with a delay, for example, at the problematic stairway, and nothing of value would be lost.

Paroxysm - Map30 - NoReason
Despite semi-hot start, you can not shoot and survive easier until only spiders remain; the second half is much, much easier if you remove pain elementals quickly but definitely hard if you don't know them coming. What surprised me is lot of population hidden in secrets; the map is most certainly not easier for this fact! Including a (mandatory, in that every map needs it!) secret cyberdemon setup. It is a fun one here because it requires you to know how to twoshot it (or at least do enough damage to spend the rest of ammo dodging)

Neter-Khertet - @El Inferno
Completely not a fan of all the inescapable non-damaing blood pits unmarked by anything at all and lacking both lifts and damage, AND having the third blood pit route part of required progression. Twice I fell into a pit and discovered it is not intended (in secret too). Either all are deadly, or none of them are. Use different liquids, maybe?

Rev/demon fight is the most hard section of the map in its first UV half; second half is getting through walls of enemies to push the button in time because demons get in the way of rockets more than pose a threat. Neither of any other fights is particularly hard, if you dispose of Pain Elementals fast and treat the cyberdemon as rocket turret than an enemy you must kill. Also, is the upper corpse scroller in last fight supposed to not work? Because sometimes I ran out of monsters eventually and three monsters never showed up for whatever reason.

Green armor placement: hated it helping skip SSG. Since the combat trigger is at the shells, you could add a stair and close the way back with the same linedef trigger.

Agnosia - @LPad
The difficulty is mostly in weird visuals, than anything. First half is really more of an invitation to lose health and ammo. Archvile fight is exceptionally annoying because without uwing auotmap it is very difficulty to figure out deadzones, but chaingunner puzzle takes the cake for "most obnoxious there ever is" (map10 is nothing by comparison) because you can't really do anything about them, except die without cover. No, stunlocking them for a second doesn't help when a chaingunner can live through an unlucky shotgun shot and it is exactly the kind of bad RNG I hate hitscanners for.

 

[SCF]

1 hour ago, alexsa2015sa said:

if you pistol the arachnotron previously, unless it is intended... is it possible to stop from happening?

 

When I was making the map I considered doing something about letting you kill the arachnotron, but in testing I found that he was actually helpful in the next fight, and he'll quickly kill the pain elementals for you as long as you stay behind them. So I'm okay with it, since it will just make the fight different instead of much easier.

[Gaargod]

Updated my map:

- Fixed the Archvile jump (so now you can't skip the map grabbing the blue skull earlier lol)

- Added a Death Exit

 

I tried to improve the visuals but honestly, I'm not good at it.

30mc_Gaargod_V3.zip

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Bri]

17 hours ago, alexsa2015sa said:

Also a bunch of pointless and randomly distracted feedback because I finally got around to it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Overall impression: Way too many cyberdemons. I hate to say it but the few maps which bothered using Spider Masterminds used them more interesting than several of cyberdemon maps, especially ep1. In few cases, cyberdemon felt like an attempt to make map hard for no particular reason and ignoring how incredibly easy the rest of map is, sometimes falling short of E2M8 in difficulty, and I do not consider that a particularly interesting map to begin with. Sure, you still die if you try taking it easy, but there probably needs to be more padding monsters/maps (says someone who did not use anything softer than revenant for UV, heh)

Obsidian Ravine: map01 - Walter confetti
Rocketlauncher, plasma gun and berserk? High-power to be sure, but if you shoot too much you do not actually have enough rockets to last for Archvile with no real cover (yikes) and at the point it spawns you might not have plasmagun yet so it gets hairy. Definitely did not feel map01 vibes here, especially with straightforward no-cover cyberdemon in small space, unless the intention is to make player warned that these maps are not easy.

Trapped in Remnants: map02 - RastaManGames
I feel this makes a better introduction map... in some aspects. It's small and cute and easy, as opposed to suddenly cyberdemon of Obsidian Ravine, even if you can skip the boss. In my opinion, it is probably the best of submissions so far for this slot, but it actually doesn't have much to do with what most other submissions do because they are all much, much more deadly so from that point of view it is indeed a bad MAP01. The most difficulty here is gunning down hitscanners before they mess you up.

Caco by Caco: map03 - Origamyde
Not much to comment - solid in general, but having played through everything cyberdemon is quite harmless here. Very easy if you know what is coming, with lots and lots and lots of space and cover. Archvile scare is pretty nice, here, if you do not know it's coming you will easily get zapped.

Vile Keep: map04 - ryiron

Soldi, not too difficult, and arguably easier than Obsidian Ravine again. Hiscanner ambush aside which may kill you dead if chaingunners is on point, mostly relaxed until the final with a still pretty forgiving SSG showdown. The most action until then is the mancubus/revenant room.

Blueberry Castle: map05 - DynamiteKaitorn
What is it with cyberdemons every map, honestly. Needing to kill one every other map is definitely not my understanding of fun; at least there is a BFG. Incidentally, you can skip the cyberdemon pacificst-style and doing so poses no difficulty whatsoever if you can dodge.

Azure Crypt: map06 - MFG38
Much of the level are low-tiers plus optional cyberdemon rocket duel which usually takes out everything in the way too. Tiny map and uncomplicated. Honestly feels more like a deathmatch map than a singleplayer one, and there isn't anything to do here - probably the most dull map overall in that aspect.

Dystrophia map07 - Scorpius
First half of the level was very, very nice and moody and never very difficult... the second is yet another cyberdemon rocket duel. Given the *previous* map featured an exact same setup (and meaner with limited rockets, there is an incredible amount of extra rockets here). Some of maps need spacing out because it was VERY boring with three very similar cyber showdowns in a row as final encounter. Not seeing an obvious way to revisit level after cyber battle ended was a letdown too.

Crate processing - map08 - lokbustam257
Not to call the map bad, but there is little going on here beyond running and sometimes shooting. The cratewall rooms look odd without even a hint of actual walls, some spaces clearly look like square walls. Overall easily the least difficult map, since most encounters without hitscanners can be outright escaped unlike map02 which requires running around.

Dismal Twilight - map09 - NeedHealth
All the hapless revenants you want. The double archvile start turned out much more threatening than anything else in the level, chaingunners included - for all I dislike chaingunners. The four imps trap was more of a jumpscare than threatening. I think the most memorable thing about this level was me getting lost and wandering 5 minutes until I finally found the yellow keycard, everything else went smoothly from there.

Demon Electrica - map10 - Bri
Hitscanners. Revenants. More hitscanners. Revenants again. Hated it undiscriminately, because you don't even get armor until you kill over third of the level (!) - five shotgunners, four chaingunners, three revenants and an archvile. This exact kind of map is why I hate playing Doom, even if it's well-done. Also, that final battle is a really tedious cyberdemon duel, since  everything else quickly dies whether you shoot it or not.

marine's snowiest base - map11 - LGmaire
Hot start with hitscanners; disliked it a lot, because it means I lost all health even before I saw the chaingunner. The rest of the map: nice, until it's chaingunners again.

Pitted Iron - map12 - Obsidian
Thematically very nice map! I'd love to see more of those but there is what there is.
Very nice combat overall; not hard, but then again with chaingun you don't want it to be.
Ab-so-lu-te-ly not a fan of forced sewage damage, made worse by mandatory repeat since the crowd likely stops you the first time and even more repeats if you have fat fingers or misjudge the opening as jumpable. Was it so difficult to put a radsuit? The ammo scarcity was mentioned by others; certainly needs one more ammo box (or access to 4 upper chainguns) from pistol start because non-berserk punching pinkies or especially lost souls in 2 tiny rooms is rarely someone's idea of fun. You cannot expect infighting to help with revenants and mancubi and enough wasted shots at mid-range quickly put you below safe threshold; revenants are thin.

Lapis Lazuli - map13 - ryiron
Don't really get why it is so early in the 2nd episode, because it is pretty hard.
The start on UV is nasty because not getting tagged by hitscanners is RNG-dependent and a single mistake means you lose all health thanks to chaingunner. The archvile segment is entertaining when you understand how it works, and I echo the sentiment of soundblocking lines needing work since pinkies start looking at you while archvile doesn't.
The cyberdemon encounter is not boring thankfully, but pain elementals don't really enter into difficulty, here. Worst case, you spend more cells.
The post-cyberdemon encounter is actually more deadly because it obviously expects you to still have leftover cells and health and no less than 80 of either. If you spent too much, it is more deadly than telegraphed cyberdemon; map played straight means you are running low on everything else too.

Spider Testament - map14
No comment, beyond "really, ep2?".

Tomb of Nephren-ka - map15 - PinkFlamingo
The first two encounters mostly drain ammo for mistake of killing things near the walls; the archviles in second might fry you if you let them live long enough or fail to separate them from bruisers. The spider mastermind encounter is pretty lethal unless you distract the boss properly. Overall probably more difficult than ep2, since last arena is pretty populated and no monster is wasted without infighting saving your ass.

Blu-ray pain - map16 - cannonball
Despite intimidating amount of heavies, much of the map can be cleared by infighitng without taking a single shot. Spider mastermind is handy like that, if you can avoid getting shot. Once you release the archviles, they can be removed quickly using the RL and corpse piles are often out of the way.
Overall fun map.

With time comes an end - map17 - Engired
A mean map, and probably a good Ep2 final. The very first room is pretty tense since the cover from archvile is very sparse and if you miss the ammo pain elemental is incredibly bad news.
Not a fan of platforming in south-eastern section, especially in cyberdemon section with practically invisible platforms without constrast edges. If you only have the rocket launcher, this is even worse since rockets take forever to kill it, so some forewarning of boss encounter won't be amiss.

30 / 30 / 3 - map18 - Parkolnaught
Slightly difficult, but mostly because it is RNG-dependent with mastermind, chaingunners and utter lack of durability being centerpieces and randomly choosing to kill you the moment you hesitate at a new popup, teleport or corner cross.
Arachnotrons can be ingored by blocking mastermind's line of sight - they have no lines of fire whatsoever; first set of hellknights and revenants are by themselves zero threat either (release them from turrets later maybe?).
Second set of hellknights can be blocked partly or fully - they end up near the south wall of telecloset if you block the teleport spots (which is easy). Need more failsafes here.
Overall, much easier than map17 as long as you luck into avoiding bullets from distance, so not sure what belongs where.

Windswept - map19 - Salmon
Pretty tricky, the first encounter instantly kills if you fail at anything at all, because there isn't really any safe space here until you clear the arachnotrons, chaingunners and revenants.
On the other hand, it is fun enough and second encounter is very forgiving if you save enough rockets to burn down the archvile fast and hug pillars after.

Hide and Sick - map20 - Shawn
Not very difficult, but very tiring map because there isn't much space to avoid archvile. I found it more interesting to shoot the nuisance and then punch/saw/self-harm through 200 hp remaining; its own pillar helps a lot.
It is EXTREMELY easy to escape gold key zone early and end up short of any weapons, because there is no other obvious way in. Worse, the teleport out is single-use. It is not just annoying, but lethal since archvile and revenants are all released to roam.

rapturous grief - map21 - myolden
The start fight is a pretty tight and nice piece.
Cyberdemon duel is... not very interesting here. Not a fan because it always drags on and it relies on cyberdemon rocketing the hellknights on schedule before they disperse too much to inhibit circle-strafing, and then it is SSG + Rockets again.
Final fight was tight but not very difficult, there is just enough space to move with the revenants.

patio bloodbah - map22 - Gaargod
I am not overstating the fact using cyberdemon rocket duels in so many maps bothers me a little tiny bit.
At least, this map actually has the rest of the map unlike map06, but it is very strange to see this kind of breather map in ep3. Even map18 is harder in its encounters, random fake walls aside. With some mental acrobatics I will not be surprised to see it ep01 - archvile pillar and chaingunner room are probably the most threatening things in the level and they aren't much of a problem.

caeco regno - map23 - LPad

Looks impressive, and turns out really mean in a good way with only shotgun and chaingun. Just enough opposition to make it fun, but not so much as to make it into grind. It only works as well as it does because of its limited arsenal, continuous really breaks the balance here. Main threats are shotgunners, archvile, revenants and pain elemental; everything else is an exercise at circle-strafing permanently.

wiltingdryad - map 24 - BENCHY

The armor secret could use a shortcut step back instead of forcing 8+ seconds sprint for teleporter, longer for blind run.
Looks nice, but very empty (which is probably half the reason small maps were specified, but still nice)

The last fight was somewhat difficult because the cover is scarce and ammo is limited so I kept running out of it.

irregularexpression - map 25 - SCF

Each individual fight is not very hard, it is the fact none allow much space for mistakes which is the issue.
Punching aside, zombieman encounter boils down to zombies distacting archvile. Pain elemental is especially easy if you pistol the arachnotron previously, unless it is intended... is it possible to stop from happening? Like, you have an idle archvile chilling out there, could use it for resurrection; just need to turn allowed space into 128 width one so the archvile always connects with hitbox in predictable place, and lock archvile's later spot so it doesn't run everywhere in its corridor.

Overall, nice and not unfairly hard with hitscanners.

Overgrown Fortress - Map 26 - finnks13
Hot start with archvile dickery means you lose health to something in the area. Very RNG-reliant on whether you even avoid the first zap - on -fast you do not unless you hide behind the pillar, and that is still a bad place to be. Otherwise, isn't actually too difficult after beginning cleanup, it is panicking and using wrong cover or rushing things that ends every next step of the run. It is also so quick it is probably closer to "short map".

Infernal engine - map27 - BiZ
Railroad start with tight ammo rationing and mandatory platforming was annoying, because I never
But that is an actually nice cybedemon duel! Immortal chaingunners denying you half the area compliment the barely-large-enough-to-dodge-splash encounter well. The second was overkill, though, with this dim lighting it takes a really overcorrected gamma to see anything and it is just more of the same run-and-gunning, and if you are slow enough you have two of them. I do not like long yet actually hard cyberdemon encounters even more than ones demanding a BFG two-shot, because the latter I can at least do randomly and here it's not possible without saving every other second.
The final encounter is easier, but still annoying because there isn't much safe cover until archvile dies - and if you spent cells this takes long time with SSG.

Misjudging the King - map28 - Bloodbath Giraffe
Not actually very hard despite 5 archviles and cyberdemon here. If anything, cyberdemon can be used to save ammo.
Level also does not have alarm mechanism so it can be cheesed until you collect everything and exited with 0 shots. Not that I consider it a bad thing.

That aside, it is pretty easy with lots and lots of safe space to move unlike the meaner maps, like map17. The archviles released from single spot with pain elementals makes their first wave completely safe with foreknowledge, and even without you'll see them before anything untoward can occur - retreating from first wave easily means no corpses are there.

-ANTI-LIFE- - Map29 - @Worriedidiot
Lots of fun (except the end if you fail to find BFG), but not a really difficult map outside its archvile/hitscanner gimmick. If anything, hitscanners make it easier if you let archviles move closer.

The start teleport is single use which isn't very alright, when there is no reason it can't be repeatable
The final cyber is nothing short of yawn, though. Could have as well released it into archvile mix with a delay, for example, at the problematic stairway, and nothing of value would be lost.

Paroxysm - Map30 - NoReason
Despite semi-hot start, you can not shoot and survive easier until only spiders remain; the second half is much, much easier if you remove pain elementals quickly but definitely hard if you don't know them coming. What surprised me is lot of population hidden in secrets; the map is most certainly not easier for this fact! Including a (mandatory, in that every map needs it!) secret cyberdemon setup. It is a fun one here because it requires you to know how to twoshot it (or at least do enough damage to spend the rest of ammo dodging)

Neter-Khertet - @El Inferno
Completely not a fan of all the inescapable non-damaing blood pits unmarked by anything at all and lacking both lifts and damage, AND having the third blood pit route part of required progression. Twice I fell into a pit and discovered it is not intended (in secret too). Either all are deadly, or none of them are. Use different liquids, maybe?

Rev/demon fight is the most hard section of the map in its first UV half; second half is getting through walls of enemies to push the button in time because demons get in the way of rockets more than pose a threat. Neither of any other fights is particularly hard, if you dispose of Pain Elementals fast and treat the cyberdemon as rocket turret than an enemy you must kill. Also, is the upper corpse scroller in last fight supposed to not work? Because sometimes I ran out of monsters eventually and three monsters never showed up for whatever reason.

Green armor placement: hated it helping skip SSG. Since the combat trigger is at the shells, you could add a stair and close the way back with the same linedef trigger.

Agnosia - @LPad
The difficulty is mostly in weird visuals, than anything. First half is really more of an invitation to lose health and ammo. Archvile fight is exceptionally annoying because without uwing auotmap it is very difficulty to figure out deadzones, but chaingunner puzzle takes the cake for "most obnoxious there ever is" (map10 is nothing by comparison) because you can't really do anything about them, except die without cover. No, stunlocking them for a second doesn't help when a chaingunner can live through an unlucky shotgun shot and it is exactly the kind of bad RNG I hate hitscanners for.

 

 

I agree about the Cyberdemons. There are too many. But it's incidental and probably expected in a CP of this type. I wouldn't be opposed to thinning out the number of them, however.

 

The other stuff seems more like a clash of differing playstyles and personal taste rather than objectivity.

[Thelokk]

2 hours ago, Bri said:

 

I agree about the Cyberdemons. There are too many. But it's incidental and probably expected in a CP of this type. I wouldn't be opposed to thinning out the number of them, however.

 

 

It's an arms race I often see in CPs - gameplay trumps all, nobody wants to be the forgettable 'softie' people breeze through, and the fastest and easiest way to bump up difficulty is to put a cyber, usually in close quarters. Personally I found some very cleverly placed (especially the map with the cyber and the archie on a ledge above it, forget which map it was atm) but there is definitely an overreliance on them.

 

@alexsa2015sa's other points... different strokes. I personally really liked how some resisted the urge to cram the 30 required monsters in two blanket sized rooms, and instead gave thier maps enough breathing room and - crazy, I know - some scenery. 

Also, and this is only my opinion, not every damage floor needs a radsuit and sometimes platforming is fine,  just like not every map needs to be an adrenaline intravenous. Just my two cents.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Thelokk

[El Inferno]

Neter Khertet v2

 

- Added death exit

- Hopefully made the second ressurection sequence more reliable

- Removed bfg from UV since it felt unnecessary, removed 40 cells from HMP

[Salmon]

@SCF, @alexsa2015sa, thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it!

 

In terms of my map, I'll do an update eventually to add a death exit but I'm holding off for now in case I get more opinions.  My main concern is the general business of the opening area.  It's a bit dependent on how blind friendly people want UV to be since it's such a short map anyway.  I may end up splitting up that initial walkover trigger to make either the mancs or the arachnotrons revealed by another walkover linedef upon entering either of the cubbies where the boxes of rockets are.

 

Regarding all the cyberdemons in the wad, yeah, it's definitely noticeable.  I actually didn't use a cybderdemon myself since I was wary about that happening. That said, I don't know what could really be done about it now.  Since there aren't set map slots you can't really limit cybers to particular map numbers.  It's mostly a pacing issue for me.  If there's any sort of sequel or successor project to this I think it'd be a good idea to have a soft time limit for map completion the way Micro Slaughter did (although 5 minutes might be too long for 30 monsters.)  Having to map with a specific par time in mind would probably limit the number of cybers or at least reduce the amount of time needed to kill them in a particular fight.