Infinite Ammo Starting Weapon: Good or Bad?

[Rudolph]

I admit, when Doom 2016 came out and made the Pistol into an infinite ammo weapon, I was more than skeptical: after all, there ought to be a reason as to why there are so few "classic" first-person shooters - AFAIK, Rise of the Triad and Quake II - out there that feature a starting weapon that does not use any ammo. But over time, I have learned to appreciate the usefulness of an infinite ammo weapon, especially after suffering through certain Classic Doom maps where ammo is quite scarce and I found myself having to deal with high-tier monsters with nothing but the fists or the chainsaw. Also, it is a good way to prevent wasting ammo on shootable switches, explosive barrels and such!

 

But then, Doom Eternal came out and scrapped the weapon altogether, which seems to imply that it was never a good idea to begin with.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Rudolph

[D4NUK1]

It's works if the gameplay in moment suits them. In Eternal was scarpped because that will not make the game health and ammo resource heavy as it's now. And in Doom 2016 does not work because the ammo is so high that really not need to use the pistol unless you really want.

A good game with more or less infinite ammo in starting weapon would be Serious Sam saga. Even Rise of the Triad but more in line with the MP40 instead of the Pistols.

[Rudolph]

Oh, right! I completely forgot about Serious Sam.

[HavoX]

It usually depends on how it is used.

 

I am planning to give the pistol infinite ammo in my mod, to compensate it being the weakest weapon. It will still be a useful weapon in certain situations, such as when you need to shoot a switch without having to waste precious ammunition.

Edited December 13, 2021 by HavoX

[Immorpher]

I was skeptical about infinite ammo starting weapons at first. But alas, like you, I started to wish I had them after running out of ammo plenty of times. So I think they are a good idea.

Perhaps it is by intention, but these starting weapons tend not to be too exiting to use. Likely as a punishment for bad ammo management. But it makes me wonder if there are ways to make them more exciting. Perhaps making them slower but do more damage. Maybe like Rage's boomer-rang like weapon. Not sure!

But I like the concept, and it would be cool if they were made more fun without ruining the significance of other weapons.

[Captain POLAND]

Isn't the fist technically an 'infinite ammo starting weapon'?

[Sena]

It can have its place, the infinite ammo means the 2016 pistol is something you can always fall back on if you need to, and I think that weapon versatility is always a good thing, I can certainly see more use for that than the original pistol which is something you completely forget exists as soon as you pick up any other weapon. Outside the campaign, I found the Quake 2 pistol to be so useless that it wasn't even worth using as a last-ditch weapon, and I think that Postal is a good example of the opposite, the M16 in that game is actually one of the best weapons, it's got a high fire rate, the highest range of any weapon that isn't the rocket launcher (i.e. infinite) and is one of few weapons in the game that you can fire while moving, which all combines to make it the best weapon to use most of the time, which can have the side effect of making the game feel a bit boring. So I guess making a starting weapon really just comes down to finding that sweet spot where it's not so bad it isn't worth using, but not so good it's the best weapon on offer, and adding infinite ammo is just one aspect that can help make a weapon more useful.

[skillsaw]

In a Doom wad, I would be careful with providing infinite ammo on the starting weapon, as it could incentivize certain boring/tedious behaviors (excessive corner camping and long range sniping with a weak gun since there's no penalty for doing so) where the scenario might be more enjoyable if the player has to move forward and wake up monsters to collect ammo. You could design maps around having an infinite ammo weapon so that this isn't a problem (basically - limit these types of sniping opportunities to the bare minimum), or maybe limit the weapon's usefulness in sniping (make it have a short range?) but it's something you'd want to design around.

[Rudolph]

29 minutes ago, HavoX said:

I am planning to give the pistol infinite ammo in my mod, to compensate it being the weakest weapon. It will still be a useful weapon in certain situations, such as when you need to shoot a switch without having to waste precious ammunition.

Oh? What mod would that be?

[Hans Grosse]

Action DOOM did this with the pistol.

[Smoothandz]

The first thing that comes to mind is ROTT. The MP40 is an ok weapon, but the infinite ammo makes it a viable weapon to use. I would say this is the best example I can think of off the top of my head.

[Captain POLAND]

22 minutes ago, Sena said:

I can certainly see more use for that than the original pistol which is something you completely forget exists as soon as you pick up any other weapon.

 

There are only 3 situations where the Doom 1 and 2 pistol is useful for me:

 

1. In the beginning of the level before I get other weapons

2. After I run out of shotgun shells but don't yet have the chaingun

3. When I think there is a switch that needs to be shot from a distance

[CBM]

what about a starting weapon that uses player health as ammo?

[Captain POLAND]

There's also the Sapphire Wand from Hexen, which many people say is broken.

 

 

[7Mahonin]

Many game designers don’t do enough research when it comes to designing their guns. No, you don’t have to be a gun nut, or even own a gun… but some common sense on how the basic types of guns work goes a long way in keeping a natural balance and offering more player choice when it comes to what weapon to use in the game at any given moment. 
 

A handgun with infinite ammo/no reload works for games that make their pistols near useless in combat, as reloading and dealing with ammo would just slow down a weak weapon like the QII laser pistol. For games that take an approach of the pistol not just being a last resort weapon, such as Duke Nukem 3D, then I’d say having its own ammo is a good way to keep the weapon balanced. I prefer pistols to be useful in games, so I’d rather have the ammo and reloads to go with that instead of a gun that will rarely be used because it’s super underpowered. Even unlimited ammo can’t save a weak ass gun. 

[Pseudonaut]

There are some pretty cool maps that provide an infinite ammo BFG, such as sf2012 map34.

[magicsofa]

It can be alright but it is a bit goofy to have a bullet firing weapon be infinite. ROTT is goofy in general so it's fine but, personally I feel that it takes away some of the "juicy-ness" of bullet weapons. I'd rather have a useful melee attack than an infinite pistol.

Blake Stone's auto-recharge pistol, despite having the dumbest firing sound in history, was not a bad implementation. Its recharge time was painfully slow, but it did enough damage to still be useful in a pinch. However, the stronger human enemies would be very dangerous to face with it, so it's not like you felt like you could cheese through the entire game.

[Rudolph]

Maybe the safest option would be a stun gun that can activate shootable switches and detonate barrels, but only briefly paralyze monsters?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Rudolph

[MFG38]

1 hour ago, Captain POLAND said:

Isn't the fist technically an 'infinite ammo starting weapon'?

 

Well yeah, but it doesn't shoot.

[Mr. Freeze]

Bad. No handholding! 

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Like anything, I think the efficacy of an infinite-ammo starting weapon is entirely dependent on the game. It made sense to scrap the pistol in DE because that game was laser focused on a certain resource management “meta”, while I think it worked well enough having an infinite-ammo pistol in D2016 for a number of reasons, not least of which because the game handles “melee” combat/weapons far differently than classic doom. It gave the player a reliable source of damage, even if it wasn’t much.

 

I’m definitely a fan of infinite starting weapons in general. I think it’s a nice way to relax the player a little, giving them some assurance that they’ll always have at least something to shoot with, and it’s a little less taxing on level designers, knowing that even the most “spray and pray” players will always have an option left for them. And, with one less “minor” stress like that taken off of the players mind (the threat of winding up with literally nothing to shoot with), it gives designers a bit more freedom to challenge them in other, more fun and interesting ways, without completely overwhelming them.

[Bridgeburner56]

The hammer in Age of Hell is infinite ammo, and has several ranged attacks. This is balanced by them having delays, range limits and specific attack combos to trigger the attack. Works well for us. So we'll that we've even built a specific game mode around just using the hammer (you get randomly generated upgrades instead of weapon pick ups).

[Jaccident]

An implementation of an infinite ammo pistol I quite enjoyed was the BTSX class in Final Doomer, where the pistol shot normally is fairly useless, but if you charge it up it can 1 shot a sergeant. This made it useful, but also stopped it from being incredibly broken.

 

I'd also like to point out that Chasm: The Rift has an infinite ammo shotgun and it's great.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Jaccident
I used the wrong "it's"

[Senor Cacodemon]

If you think about it the chainsaw has infinite ammo in doom 1 and 2 and combined with god sphere its broken

[Teo Slayer]

I've been playing the Final Doomer mod which gives to your pistol infinite ammo. I can say, it's not a bad feature. It makes it, kinda, more useful

[Yumheart]

Berserk all the way, baby.

[Rudolph]

4 minutes ago, Teo Slayer said:

I've been playing the Final Doomer mod which gives to your pistol infinite ammo. I can say, it's not a bad feature. It makes it, kinda, more useful

The name sounds familiar. I will check it out!

[Murdoch]

Given that such weapons are usually only marginally better than trying to beat your enemies to death with a giant dildo, it really has little affect on the gameplay.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

49 minutes ago, Senor Cacodemon said:

If you think about it the chainsaw has infinite ammo in doom 1 and 2 and combined with god sphere its broken

How is it broken?

[Marisa the Magician]

An infinite ammo pistol that is still useful as a weapon? Why, I'm quite familiar with that concept. If balanced properly, it can serve as a way to allow players to "save up" ammo for stronger encounters by falling back when dealing with weaker foes, or having to punch lead into distant shootable switches. Of course, this only works if there is also some good control on ammo delivery, too. Give 'em too little, and they'll be complaining about having to resource to pistol blastin' way too often, give 'em too much and they'll start to get bored of being able to BFG everything. It's like a good diet, a balance of just the right amounts of nutrients, or in this case, ordnance.

 

I for one am in favour of its use, but I'm not a very strong proponent of it, either way works as long as you balance things right. I've got a lot of favourite mods, both with starting weapons that use ammo and without, each is good in its own way.

 

So I wouldn't say if it's "good or bad", my answer would be "it depends", really.

 

Edit: As a bonus, infinite ammo BUT it has to reload. Good stuff.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Marisa Kirisame
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