Infinite Ammo Starting Weapon: Good or Bad?

[Senor Cacodemon]

58 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

How is it broken?

You can just hold M1 or ctrl depending on control in front of an enemy for however long as you want until the god power wears off

[Ichor]

27 minutes ago, Senor Cacodemon said:

You can just hold M1 or ctrl depending on control in front of an enemy for however long as you want until the god power wears off

 

Ring of invincibility + tome of power + gauntlets of the necromancer = even more broken. You probably don't even need the ring for maulotaurs. You can just sit there and drain health about as fast as he can hurt you.

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Provided it doesn't completely overshadow the other weapons, or is completely worthless, an infinite ammo starting weapon is fine. A good example is Jazz Jackrabbit. Sure, the default blaster can get you through most levels just fine but the bouncer is incredibly useful at hitting enemies in odd angles and the RF missile tears through bosses with ease.

 

In serious Sam, the dual colts are fantastic when you need to conserve ammo in medium and hard (and I think mental?) difficulties.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

5 hours ago, Senor Cacodemon said:

You can just hold M1 or ctrl depending on control in front of an enemy for however long as you want until the god power wears off

That's pretty much the point, but the length of the invuln combined with the chainsaw's damage isn't OP to the point where I'd consider it broken, unless the mapmaker has made it that way by placing too many invuln spheres (common rookie mistake).

[ReaperAA]

On 12/13/2021 at 9:56 PM, skillsaw said:

In a Doom wad, I would be careful with providing infinite ammo on the starting weapon, as it could incentivize certain boring/tedious behaviors (excessive corner camping and long range sniping with a weak gun since there's no penalty for doing so) where the scenario might be more enjoyable if the player has to move forward and wake up monsters to collect ammo. You could design maps around having an infinite ammo weapon so that this isn't a problem (basically - limit these types of sniping opportunities to the bare minimum), or maybe limit the weapon's usefulness in sniping (make it have a short range?) but it's something you'd want to design around.

 

^This. While I am not strictly against infinite ammo starting weapon, its biggest issue is that it incentivizes boring long range sniping (especially if it is too good and/or when ammo of other weapon is tight). You need to make sure to design the levels that restrict long range sniping. I have an example of where it works and where it doesn't work well.

An example of where it works is Quake 2. The blaster in Quake 2 is useful to a point where it can kill the lowest enemies and hit switches but apart from that, there it little reason to use it. The blaster is weak against higher enemies and there is sufficient ammo for other weapons. And on top of that, the maps are tight and compact, with little opportunities for long range sniping.

 

An example of where it is broken is Hexen's mage class. The sapphire wand is just stupidly good. The weapon has near-hitscan railgun-type attack which pierces multiple enemies and it's damage is decent enough to even overshadow mage's 2nd weapon (frost shards). On top of that, the maps in Hexen provide ample sniping opportunities.

 

 To address the sniping issue and to not make it overshadow the frost shards, I buffed the 2nd weapon and limited the range of the sapphire wands in my mod for Hexen.

^{*Shameless mod promotion mode OFF*}  

Edited December 14, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Rudolph]

I have to wonder if incentivizing bad behavior really is that much of a problem, as far as the Doom arsenal is concerned. After all, the Pistol is not a satisfying weapon to use and even with infinite ammo, it is simply not an appealing weapon, so players who would choose it over other weapons would only be punishing themselves.

[Marisa the Magician]

Yeah, one shouldn't worry that much about players who choose to play "the wrong way" on purpose.

[QuaketallicA]

In Rise of the Triad, infinite ammo is just another silly thing it can get away with in its whimsical aesthetic. But the guns are like primary guns that ordinarily would have ammo. I almost never use the basic pistol in Quake 2, because you get the shotgun right from the beginning of the first level anyway. Maybe if you want to snipe the easiest enemy it's useful? Doom 2016 yes the pistol was completely useless. About the only thing it was good against were the basic fodder guys, who were glory killable in one melee hit anyway, so I just double tapped melee for an instant glory kill.

Edited December 14, 2021 by QuaketallicA

[Deadwing]

It's fine, as long as you design your level around it.

Adding infinite starting ammo to existing doom maps will definitely be problematic though

Edited December 14, 2021 by Deadwing

[Teo Slayer]

21 hours ago, Marisa Kirisame said:

As a bonus, infinite ammo BUT it has to reload. Good stuff.

Yep, that's how the pistol in Final Doomer works. Infinite ammo but it has to reload. As you said, good stuff

[Rudolph]

7 minutes ago, Teo Slayer said:

Yep, that's how the pistol in Final Doomer works. Infinite ammo but it has to reload. As you said, good stuff

I did try the mod and there is an option to disable the need to reload.

 

1 hour ago, QuaketallicA said:

I almost never use the basic pistol in Quake 2, because you get the shotgun right from the beginning of the first level anyway. Maybe if you want to snipe the easiest enemy it's useful?

Also, much like vanilla Doom and Doom II, Quake II is ridiculously generous with the ammo placement, even on Hard+.

[Kute]

Do people enjoy such a mechanic?

[Novaseer]

On 12/13/2021 at 4:40 PM, Captain POLAND said:

Isn't the fist technically an 'infinite ammo starting weapon'?

nah it's hidden in the source code, if you punch 2,387,421 times in a single level you break your knuckles and can't punch anymore /s

[robocaco]

As long as it isn't relied on too much in a level, then it's fine.

[Jello]

I've thought about this for a bit, and I don't think the player should ever be without a long range weapon. But it really depends on the game.

 

In Serious Sam 1/2, you have your Colt revolvers, and they have an infinite distance, but they have to reload after six shots, twelve if you've picked up a second one. This is extremely useful for conserving ammo in the first few levels, because you can take out single enemies at a distance. But once you hit level 2 or 3, they're a backup at best, because the enemies start hitting you hard and fast. But they're always there as a backup.

 

Same with Quake 2, the blaster gets used early on, but you quickly pick up better weapons, and it goes by the wayside. It's not a feasible weapon in combat, but in that rare situation where you run out of ammunition, you'll always have a distance weapon to fall back to.

 

Really I think we should just do without a default melee weapon, and make the first weapon some kind of infinite ammo ranged weapon. Throw in a melee response, bound to mouse 4 or 5 or any keyboard key, like a kick or punch, but no more "melee" weapons. I mean, unless it's awesome, like a sword that shoots lightning and meteors.

 

Again, it depends on the game. But in high action games, you should always have a long range option, even if it sucks. And I realize this would cause problems with Doom, because the Berserk Pack is fantastic, and I love going toe to toe with some Barons of Hell, so it would need some balancing. But yeah, I think most action oriented FPS games, where you're being shot at, should have an unlimited long range base weapon.

[Rudolph]

@Jello Well, punching with a Berserk-powered fist is more satisfying than shooting things with the Pistol, so I do not think there is much balancing to be done: again, the only consequence I see with players opting to exploit the sniping ability of a infinite ammo pistol is that they are going to make the game boring for them.