Decino's video today playing the last map of stardate

[Kute]

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

The excited nervousness in his voice was palpable in the last 2 fights. A tough map does that to you, when you're 45 minutes in and it's hectic as all get out.

 

I am of course referring to midmap saving.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

[dew]

I dunno man, I played rjspace9f literally thousands of times and I fucked up in the last minute or two so many times that it hardly even raises the heart beat unless I'm on some crazy record pace. I mean it's like snorting coke, it's exciting and new for a bunch of times, but then your nose falls off.

[Ragu]

I think everyone has to make the calculus of whether your time and the hour(s) of frustration are worth the elation at the end. There's a lot of maps I would probably have just given up on if I had to keep replaying the map from the beginning after dying 30 or 40 minutes in.

[Mr. Alexander]

It's a fun way to play maps I know well and have practiced with mid-map saves before set-piece battles. Playing saveless and blind usually makes me want to tear my hair out, but I can't deny the thrill or the stress of getting deep into a level without a recent save. 

[jmac]

5 hours ago, Kute said:

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

The excited nervousness in his voice was palpable in the last 2 fights. A tough map does that to you, when you're 45 minutes in and it's hectic as all get out.

 

I am of course referring to midmap saving.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

You forgot to mention the part where you die 45 minutes into a difficult map, lose all of your progress, become overwhelmed with crushing despair, and then never touch that wad again.

[Pseudonaut]

My favorite thing about saveless play is that it forces you to find strategies that work consistently. RNG is a big deal in Doom, so you can get away with a lot of stupid shit if you save frequently and just brute force a bad strategy until it works. I do this myself a lot of the time. Still, saves are useful to prepare for long saveless runs and facilitate experimentation.

[Lila Feuer]

My rule is never save during fights. If monsters want to kill you, you better kill them if you wanna save. Sometimes my key saves aren't reliable as not all maps feature them, so my backup for that is survive ten minutes, then save, then every ten minutes save again. But fights should always be preserved, because those are the most rewarding things to overcome. Annoying platforming sections on the other hand, alright I'll scum it but only because I can never get the momentum down despite playing this game for 22 fucking years I always somehow overshoot awkward platforming sections when they expect you to make abrupt turns throughout them.

[baja blast rd.]

2014: explain the appeal of playing with saves?

2021: so Decino...

[KeaganDunn]

7 hours ago, Kute said:

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

 

Great. One of these threads.

 

I normally stay out of these conversations on Doomworld. But idk man, I've played through Eviternity, Stardate 20x6, Stardate 20x7, Sunlust, Finely Crafted Fetish Film MAP07, Swim with the Whales MAP03, Scythe MAP30, Bastion of Chaos...and various other difficult maps and mapsets, on varying difficulties with saves.

Every time I completed them (blind or practiced, UV or not, saves or not), there was a sense of accomplishment and relief flowing through me, looking on after killing all the monsters in the last arena. The fights themselves were still just as thrilling, both from a blind and practiced perspective.

 

I'm more irritated from the fact that this thread springs from decino's playthrough of Stardate 20x7. Just because the popular Doom players out there are very skilled (Zero Master, Daerik, decino, etc.) doesn't allow for map-gatekeeping and difficulty/save elitism. It does not mean that everyone has to live up to that standard and bang their head against the wall trying to complete a 40-minute niche puzzle/slaughter map without saves.

 

Hell, I've tried to do that kind of speedrunning earlier this year, and I've been burnt out on Doom for the entire second half of 2021.

 

If playing without saves for the sake of thrill and accomplishment is what suits you, that's fine. But most of us don't like that kind of mindset around here.

[Deadwing]

It's not really fun to lose 45 minutes of progress >.<

 

On other hand, quick-saving everything can make things way too trivial too, and you might try to "force-brute" a fight to win it, where without saves wouldn't be a real possibility.

 

If we're talking about shorter maps (10 minutes long), wouldn't be a bad idea for me to save only when you pick a key in HMP... (peharps even UV on easier mapsets)

[Krenium]

The difference between decino and I is that I don't get paid to play hard maps saveless.

 

Edit: and also that he is a much, much better player than me, of course!

Edited December 19, 2021 by Krenium

[SCF]

I would've been on your side, but then I saw A1s' D2ALL run of Stardate 2x07. And really, playing maps one at a time is basically like saving in between maps.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you're not beating the entire wad saveless in one sitting- you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment. 

 

 

It's almost as if goals are arbitrary and what's challenging/rewarding is different for everyone.

[UnknDoomer]

Quote

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps

What about saves each minute two times in a row? Regular loss of progress / time might be a big deal too, which after all can lead someone to such scheme. "Regular" wads is one part of the deal, but something like

 

 

is another. I've spent a lot of attempts on that one especially recently, till figure out how to deal with last wave in a right way / deal with the boss from specific position, that noted on the screenshot.

 

Stardate 20X6, UV difficulty + Corruption Cards (https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&amp;t=67939).

 

Repeating this whole map from the start in such conditions... would be a long nightmare.

Edited December 19, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Kinsie]

[Major Arlene]

8 hours ago, Kute said:

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

Fantastic for decino. I still don't give a rat's ass about "accomplishment" for playing something non-competitively.

This backhanded gatekeeping is shit. Stop doing it.

[RHhe82]

I think @Dunn (& Dunn)'s post tells all there is to it, but let me reiterate anyway.

 

I totally agree, that Decino's and other doom gods' way of playing is thrilling, and certainly they are a marvel to behold. I can only imagine how many thousands of hours of practice it has taken them to achieve their level of expertise and skill. I can only imagine, how many practice runs it takes such a doomgod to achieve a saveless UV-MAX run on a map that's designed to challenge the veterans.

 

As for me, I'm not a doomgod. I have limited time to sink into Doom, and I don't want to spend those precious minutes getting frustrated in the hopes of reaching a small ounce of Decino's greatness. Especially since I do get the enjoyment with using midlevel saves, even midfight saves on occasion, when I stumble into a map that's designed for better players than me.

 

Saving too often can indeed eat away the sense of accomplishment. However, it's a very subjective what does it mean to save too often. Player has to be honest with themselves, are they playing just to tick a checkbox that they've completed some wad, or are they genuinely experiencing fun and getting enjoyment out of it. I don't think playing totally saveless is worth the frustration and time, especially if they don't even get their living out of playing challenge wads on streams. I sure don't, and I don't see who would even care if I told people I beat Sundate 20x8 mapXX on nightmare saveless. Maybe someone on Doomworld forums would but again, I don't think it's worth it.

[Dubbag]

I save because I'm too lazy to start the level over ha.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Dubbag

[MFG38]

To me, the idea of losing 45 minutes' worth of progress on a map because I decided to play it saveless is more frustrating than thrilling. I'd honest-to-God rage quit at that point. We've had this exact same discussion/debate here enough times as it is - the bottom line, as it's always been, is that different people have different playstyles. Some do pistol-starts, others play continuous. Some play saveless, others don't. Some play UV only, others prefer the lower difficulties. Guilting people for their personal playstyle and/or trying to enforce a different playstyle upon them has never been and will never be cool.

[thiccyosh]

Now think about on what you've just said. Your argument here is: If you don't play like [Insert Doom god here], you're objectivly doing it wrong. Do you also point out on how people eat burgers? Or how people watch movies? Do you point out how people enjoy certain activities, and that your way or the way others do it is better?

 

It doesn't matter how you play Doom, or any game. You don't have an audience behind your back to impress while playing, unless you record it and make it public. People won't see that you died in Map01 when you were a small child, or that you beat God Machine on nightmare S100 saveless while you're blindfolded and playing with a Gituar Hero controller with your feet. Just let the players enjoy the damn game.

 

I'm more surprised the mods here aren't sick of these posts, or else this one right here would've been locked into oblivion. Seriously it's the same discussion over and over again and some just don't want to get it. Or the author of this post here is just a troll, it's the Internet after all.

[Doom House]

1 hour ago, MFG38 said:

To me, the idea of losing 45 minutes' worth of progress on a map because I decided to play it saveless is more frustrating than thrilling. I'd honest-to-God rage quit at that point. We've had this exact same discussion/debate here enough times as it is - the bottom line, as it's always been, is that different people have different playstyles. Some do pistol-starts, others play continuous. Some play saveless, others don't. Some play UV only, others prefer the lower difficulties. Guilting people for their personal playstyle and/or trying to enforce a different playstyle upon them has never been and will never be cool.

I second this. Folks, just let us play how we want

Edited December 19, 2021 by Doom House

[Andromeda]

45 minutes? That's slow, he could beat the level in half the time if he played with saves.

[Biodegradable]

10 hours ago, Kute said:

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

 

"Objective" is a misnomer that can't be applied to squishy, malleable humans and their own experiences. We're not all clones of the same person, mate. Your personal opinion and Decino's personal experience are just that, personal and thus, subjective. Your suggestion that there is a universal, "objective" way to experience some arbitrary metric of thrill playing Doom is just silly.

 

10 hours ago, Kute said:

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but-

 

Cool, thanks! 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Biodegradable

[holaareola]

There's some truth to how playing with saves undermines tension and intensity. Lower stakes, lower thrills. But replaying all the easier bits just because you died at the very end is shit all in its own way. 

 

I'd like a port that offered a UV+ difficulty mode with save rationing. Allowed once every five mins of movement or something like that. I really enjoyed AvP classic way back -- already an intense game and even more so with a strict 2 save per map limit on the highest difficulty. The problem with a fixed limit was that it introduced a meta-game of save optimisation, involving trying to work out how long the level you're in might be and how far through it you are so that you don't squander your saves. Dreary and distracting on the larger maps.

Edited December 19, 2021 by holaareola

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

The first mistake you made here is automatically assuming that I've ever watched a Decino video before, much less the specific video you're referring to. The second mistake is the insinuation that I'm objectively doing something wrong because I'm not copying everything that some Youtuber I don't give a shit about is doing.

 

Very unique subject matter, thanks.

Edited December 19, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Astronomical]

11 hours ago, Kute said:

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

I would like to thank you for breaking my feeling of guilt for using the f6 key.  I used to feel awful for constantly saving.  Not anymore, thank you.

[D4NUK1]

There are 2059 enemies on that map and you telling us it's trilling to play it saveless? It's seems frustration inducing if you not have the time or the skills and just dismisses the enjoyment of the map

Small maps that take 10 mins sure, this not.

[Bauul]

13 hours ago, Kute said:

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

 

Great, you should go tell Decino this, because he sure as hell saved his way through his Sunder playthrough.

 

Please, go tell him off like you did us and see what response you get.

[Marisa the Magician]

Clearly, the most optimal way to play a game is to uninstall it and never touch it again if you lose even once in it. Otherwise, there are no stakes at all, no risk whatsoever to make that final reward of beating it so much more delicious. If you can still keep trying until you beat it, then you're not having fun (which, by the way, is a buzzword, or so I heard).

[Mayomancer]

Different people react different to different things, what might be thrilling and exciting for some can be anxiety inducing and overwhelming for others. There is no objectively better way to enjoy something because everyone is looking for different kinds of experiences to a certain degree.

 

It's not up to you to decide whether people who use mid level saves are feeling enough thrill or not, for some people just facing a cyberdemon alone could be that kind of experience, regardless of how much progress they lose. But again, there certainly are ways to abuse systems like saving for the detriment of one's own enjoyment, and it's up to them to realize what they really want to do and what games they want to play. If you always just want to get something over with maybe you don't actually like the game.

 

Edit: Everyone is always "missing out" on loads of stuff, no one can do everything at the same time, and that's ok because we choose the things we like to do and just keep doing them, then sometimes we try out new stuff and decide if it's our jam or not. And if someone doesn't enjoy something you do or vice versa that's perfectly ok.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Mayomancer

[dew]

UV-FOMO: When you play the game according to a perceived standard and end up not having fun, because it becomes a grindy, insufferable chore. Yet you refuse to drop the difficulty, start saving or untie your left arm, because then you'd seemingly lose all street cred and would never be able to discuss the wad again.

 

That said, if challenging yourself like that is genuinely fun for you, then all the power to you.