Decino's video today playing the last map of stardate

[Jacek Bourne]

I play with and without saves. I play without when I want to be challenged. I play with saves when not. Most people don't want to be challenged all of the time.

[Bridgeburner56]

15 hours ago, Kute said:

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

The excited nervousness in his voice was palpable in the last 2 fights. A tough map does that to you, when you're 45 minutes in and it's hectic as all get out.

 

I am of course referring to midmap saving.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

I look forward to your saveless demo of Sunder map 19

[Turbine2k5]

16 hours ago, Kute said:

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

The excited nervousness in his voice was palpable in the last 2 fights. A tough map does that to you, when you're 45 minutes in and it's hectic as all get out.

 

I am of course referring to midmap saving.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

Garbage take. This one is more correct.

[princetontiger]

Wouldn't it be messed up if we didn't save, our heart rate spiked, and we died on the chair?

 

That little save could save your life!

 

In all seriousness, the days of me playing on the edge of my seat, nervous as hell, with sweaty palms are largely over. I just don't enjoy that feeling anymore.

Edited December 19, 2021 by princetontiger

[Btyb88]

Like mentioned before, I don't have the time to replay the same parts of a map over and over that I've already beaten. I'm more concerned with beating the individual fights/arenas of a map. If I have the time and am able to do a deathless run, that's a bonus.

[Turbine2k5]

3 hours ago, Bauul said:

 

Great, you should go tell Decino this, because he sure as hell saved his way through his Sunder playthrough.

 

Please, go tell him off like you did us and see what response you get.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

21 minutes ago, princetontiger said:

Wouldn't it be messed up if we didn't save, our heart rate spiked, and we died on the chair?

 

That little save could save your life!

 

In all seriousness, the days of me playing on the edge of my seat, nervous as hell, with sweaty palms are largely over. I just don't enjoy that feeling anymore.

Some maps are so luck based that playing them without saves sounds brutal. I agree, I'm done with getting stressed over games. I can play a lot of stuff without saving, but if I do save, it doesn't make me a bad player or enjoy the game less. 

 

Saves make it more enjoyable tbh.

[Daerik]

I'm genuinely curious why the OP is being met with as much hostility as it is. It's not wrong that playing without midmap saves is objectively a much more thrilling experience, nor is it implying that you have to otherwise you're a failure. This thread could just as easily be about encouraging people to check it out.

[Roofi]

I remember the time when I challenged myself to beat TimeOfDeath's and Death-Destiny's maps without saves on UV.  It was both terribly frustrating and exciting at the same time.

 

Playing saveless require patience.

[Bridgeburner56]

@Daerik I'd 100% say that it is not objectively a more thrilling experience. Nothing about playing games is objective. Playing things saveless is an exercise in immense frustration and annoyance for me, one of the (several) reasons I'll never even attempt Ultra Nightmare on Doom Eternal. A thoroughly unappealing prospect for me personally. 
The whole "saveless is best" goes hand in hand with the "UV is the only difficulty worth playing" gatekeeping mentality and the sooner it dies the better. 

[Daerik]

Just now, Bridgeburner56 said:

@Daerik I'd 100% say that it is not objectively a more thrilling experience. Nothing about playing games is objective. Playing things saveless is an exercise in immense frustration and annoyance for me, one of the (several) reasons I'll never even attempt Ultra Nightmare on Doom Eternal. A thoroughly unappealing prospect for me personally. 
The whole "saveless is best" goes hand in hand with the "UV is the only difficulty worth playing" gatekeeping mentality and the sooner it dies the better. 

 

Frustration and excitement are two sides of the same coin here. Not everyone want's to deal with the frustration and tedium that comes from losing a long run, and hey that's perfectly ok. But can you honestly say that it's not a thrilling experience to actually execute a long run? I've had people comment on how exciting it is to watch me do them, and that's just from merely watching.

 

Nowhere in this thread are the words "saveless is best", people have just made the assumption that that's whats being stated here.

[Biodegradable]

31 minutes ago, Daerik said:

Nowhere in this thread are the words "saveless is best", people have just made the assumption that that's whats being stated here.

 

Actually they did, only using different words. "Decino's video today playing the last map of Stardate is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling. - I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment."

 

Feels pretty unambiguous from where I'm sitting. Had they just said this was their opinion, none of us would be dunking on this thread in the first place. OP's assertion that this is some kind of objective fact in regards to how anyone could ever possibly feel "the thrill of the game" is what we're all reacting to.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Biodegradable

[Bridgeburner56]

46 minutes ago, Daerik said:

 

Frustration and excitement are two sides of the same coin here. Not everyone want's to deal with the frustration and tedium that comes from losing a long run, and hey that's perfectly ok. But can you honestly say that it's not a thrilling experience to actually execute a long run? I've had people comment on how exciting it is to watch me do them, and that's just from merely watching.

 

Nowhere in this thread are the words "saveless is best", people have just made the assumption that that's whats being stated here.

I'd say it's fair to read "objectively more thrilling" as categorically better but happy to concede that point.

There's a phenomenon in sports (both team and individual) where if you come up against a better opponent you rise to the challenge. It's been well documented and studied, and is widely accepted as an proven thing that happens. The classic underdog overcoming a better opponent story. And even if you don't win, you play better and learn from the more skilled opponent. 
But there's a point where if the opponent is too far ahead in skill you will play worse than usual and be on the receiving end of a shellacking. No new skills are learned, you become demoralised and can often go backwards in terms of skill in subsequent games/events. 

So sure, you can say that overcoming a higher challenge is can be more thrilling, but you'll only be able to reach that state if the challenge isn't already close to your skill level which is where the subjectivity starts coming in. It is very much dependent on the individual player's skill level, patience, the difficulty of the map, the length of the map, is there a wider goal etc. I don't think it's a like for like comparison with say your Sunlust D2all success because that comes with a sense of spectacle and build up, something that your general player at home isn't going to have. 

Edit*
TL:DR there's no thrill of success if you can't actually succeed

[Clippy]

It sure is a pain in the ass to have to redo already conquered fights over and over again to be a hero - especially on a blind run - you never know what mappers will through at you - it could be BS at the end and have to spend lots of unnecessary time replaying things over and over because of it? Well I certainly don't have time for that nonsense lol

 

When I do beat a map with saves, but still without dying I get a great feeling all the same, it's my personal goal every video - try to survive - I find once I get some deaths under my belt I get more reckless and try to get through it with more force vs caution haha

 

But I'm happy to have the save files to fall back on if I do get murdered - especially very late into a map - hate repeating fights I defeated already

 

Either way play doom the way you like

[xdarkmasterx]

It's totally up to what you as a player are willing to handle. Partitioning the level into smaller pieces doesn't necessarily remove the tension, in fact a lot of the time I'd say it improves the experience by letting you avoid the mind-numbing tedium of doing the same thing over and over again. Repeating the same easy fight over and over to get to a hard one, walking into a building again and again etc. don't add anything to the experience for me.

 

That aside, the shock and horror in some of the responses here is quite silly. OP isn't being at all confrontational or elitist so he doesn't deserve to get shit on by so many people. New ussers should be encouraged to start discussions without getting their ass blasted just because some disagree with the premise.

[Gregor]

22 hours ago, Kute said:

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

The excited nervousness in his voice was palpable in the last 2 fights. A tough map does that to you, when you're 45 minutes in and it's hectic as all get out.

 

I am of course referring to midmap saving.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you save in the middle of maps - you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment.

When you talk about decino you need to remember that these hardcore runs aren't blind. They are practised runs. Decino himself has a very limited tolerance for frustration and even for the "easier" wads he does blind, when a map is too hard to beat it in a couple of attempts he will practise the map with saves before recording another run. He just can't be bothered. Also, just a year or two ago, decino wasn't on that level either where he would try something like Stardate 20x7 saveless. He built up to that level. He's exceptionally good at Doom and loves to challenge himself, but he's not a speedrunner that loves grinding the same map for hundreds of hours, either. His recent Sunder runs, where he constantly saves between fights, show you that he's very much aware of his limits and makes sure that whatever he attempts is feasible for his current skill level.

 

The problem with this thrill seeking in general is that it can get you addicted over time to always wanting to be pushed to your limit. In the case of Doom, it can leave you unable to appreciate easier mapsets despite their superior overall quality for the simple reason that they aren't hardcore enough to make you feel anything. You can already see that with decino as well. When a map isn't hardcore enough to make him sweat, you often get the sense that he is just that little bit disappointed, no matter how good the map is apart from that. He still loves the game overall and can enjoy easier maps for other reasons than difficulty but you can see that he's always on the lookout for that next level of challenge. Eventually he will run out of high quality wads that offer enough of a challenge to keep him excited. 

 

"And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer."

- Hans Gruber

 

Don't do drugs. ;)

Edited December 20, 2021 by Gregor

[Horus]

Trying to play both saveless and blind I find immensely frustrating. However, playing saveless on a map that I have already played, know well and is on my skill level is indeed more thrilling.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Horus

[Doomkid]

I sure do love dogpileworld.com!...

 

"Objective" is a dumb word to use but I really hope Kute doesn't feel ganged up on. I think a poor choice of words and a mildly bad take shouldn't really be met with so much aggression. Peace and love, peace and love, no more fan mail, peace and love!

 

Edit: Well, I tried..

[SleepyVelvet]

I get the thrill concept.  

There was a good year where I held myself to a hard "no save for a year" rule, but this was mostly to see if it would force me to level up.  It wasn't always fun, but was more of a delayed gratification kinda thing.  It did indeed clean up some aspects of my gameplay.

When I played TimeOfDeath's ESP wad, I actually used a 3-save rule (except for one map where I had to waver on that rule), which was it's own fun meta-game to manage.

Now I'm back to just saving when I feel like it.

@Kute, May I suggest the two Ironman leagues held on this forum.  You don't even get to choose the map and you get only one shot.  Runs there have a lot of thrill factor, and you get to post embarrasing deaths for the public to see too.

[Biodegradable]

42 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

"Objective" is a dumb word to use but I really hope Kute doesn't feel ganged up on. I think a poor choice of words and a mildly bad take shouldn't really be met with so much aggression.

 

If you don't want an explosion, then don't pull the pin out of the grenade! General silliness aside, I hope Kute takes this bit of community hazing on the chin. Strong hot takes are going to burn you a bit if you're not careful hehe. 

[kristus]

23 hours ago, Kute said:

Is an example of a certain way of playing being objectively, much more thrilling.

There is nothing objective about how anyone enjoys any form of entertainment. It's entirely subjective. I encourage people to present their case for their preferences. But remember that it's nothing more than your personal preferences.

[Kute]

14 hours ago, SCF said:

I would've been on your side, but then I saw A1s' D2ALL run of Stardate 2x07. And really, playing maps one at a time is basically like saving in between maps.

 

I always agree that you should play however you enjoy it, but if you're not beating the entire wad saveless in one sitting- you're missing out on that thrill, that relief, and that accomplishment. 

 

 

It's almost as if goals are arbitrary and what's challenging/rewarding is different for everyone.

 

Sure. But because you're pistol starting each map it's just suited as a good break. 

 

There's also some legitimacy to my argument because of how the maps are built. They are clearly meant to be played one at a time and pistol started. They don't give you the SSG near the start of every map for the aesthetic of it. Even the base wads. So my "argument" feels more reasonable. Expecting someone to do a 10 hour play through in one sitting is on the extreme end. That's just being contrarian.

 

And beside, it's kind of funny you said that because that's the point. I can't beat the entire wad yet. I'm figuring it out. That's the point of a videogame? To get better? Or is it to save your way through? 

 

And actually on that subject, once you've learned the wad - playing through on one "life" would be much easier than having to build up to the plasma/BFG every map. Seriously the BFG would trivialize many, many fights if you're not pistol starting. I'm just picturing some tricky maps being trivialized if I can just wipe them with a few BFG shots.

 

But it's all redundant and, like you said, arbitrary - because I was just pointing out some great positives to not save-scumming. I'd love to hear some arguments for it. Maybe it is more thrilling, I don't know. I don't remember it that way as a kid, but maybe it is? Maybe videogames are better when you trivialize them. 

 

But that's all I'm saying. That you're missing out by saving your way through maps. If it's just about seeing all the maps and blowing monsters away, which by all means can be fun - you should IDKFA/IDDQD. It saves even more time than saving your way through a tough map.

 

 

[Kute]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

When you talk about decino you need to remember that these hardcore runs aren't blind. They are practised runs. Decino himself has a very limited tolerance for frustration and even for the "easier" wads he does blind, when a map is too hard to beat it in a couple of attempts he will practise the map with saves before recording another run. He just can't be bothered. Also, just a year or two ago, decino wasn't on that level either where he would try something like Stardate 20x7 saveless. He built up to that level. He's exceptionally good at Doom and loves to challenge himself, but he's not a speedrunner that loves grinding the same map for hundreds of hours, either. His recent Sunder runs, where he constantly saves between fights, show you that he's very much aware of his limits and makes sure that whatever he attempts is feasible for his current skill level.

 

The problem with this thrill seeking in general is that it can get you addicted over time to always wanting to be pushed to your limit. In the case of Doom, it can leave you unable to appreciate easier mapsets despite their superior overall quality for the simple reason that they aren't hardcore enough to make you feel anything. You can already see that with decino as well. When a map isn't hardcore enough to make him sweat, you often get the sense that he is just that little bit disappointed, no matter how good the map is apart from that. He still loves the game overall and can enjoy easier maps for other reasons than difficulty but you can see that he's always on the lookout for that next level of challenge. Eventually he will run out of high quality wads that offer enough of a challenge to keep him excited. 

 

"And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer."

- Hans Gruber

 

Don't do drugs. ;)

 

Oh yea, whatever you have to do to get to the point where you can beat the map with no saves. You can save every mob if you want. You just haven't beaten the map. Well you have, just like how Dr. Dre's kid got into college. Not on merit. It's objectively more satisfying and thrilling to beat the map without saving. Whatever you gotta do to get there is on you - and that's only if you want to beat it. If you want to save your way through, or put on idqd and just see the architecture, then that's your fun. But you won't get that satisfaction of beating it, because you haven't.

[Major Arlene]

1 minute ago, Kute said:

But you won't get that satisfaction of beating it, because you haven't.

lol what? if you complete it, you've beat it.
please stop saying "objectively" because playing games is an entirely subjective experience.

[kristus]

People play games for a lot of different reasons. Playing every map like Decino however is quite unusual. He obviously spend a lot of time planning and plotting the maps he plays. A lot of failed runs are part of that as can be seen in the cases where he shown "bloopers". Most people wouldn't want to invest that time in playing a map.

 

Generally people play a game to have fun. A bit of challenge is part of that and that surely involves the feeling of overcoming the challenge. But for the vast majority, it's not with the challenge in focus. It's more about the experience, escapism, or community around the game.

 

I myself tend to play without saves. I am not sure why, but I just end up playing like that. Maybe because I always test my maps that way to make sure I can complete them myself without resorting to tricks. On the other hand though, I very rarely complete any games of any kind. And the ones I do complete are not generally for the game play. But for the general experience, like I may want to see where the story goes. Or I like the setting of the game etc.

 

If I played like you suggest, then I would probably not play anything ever. Because it would be too exhausting to me. 

But I also think you're mistaken in your conclusion. Yeah there is a thrill to overcome a challenge. But where that bar for the challenge is differs between people. If you feel committed and want to deconstruct a map like decino. Then that may be where the challenge comes for you. But if the commitment isn't there, the challenge won't be rewarding and you will either quit or lower the bar to something more approachable.

[Bridgeburner56]

11 minutes ago, Kute said:

You just haven't beaten the map

I guess nobody has beaten Sunder map 19 yet then, because there hasn't been a single segment run ever completed. 

This is a foolishly reductive way to look at playing games

[Kute]

Just now, Major Arlene said:

lol what? if you complete it, you've beat it.
please stop saying "objectively" because playing games is an entirely subjective experience.

 

IDK. Is this gonna be some abstract thing. Like if I IDKFA and IDDQD and run to the exits I guess I completed it, and if I had fun doing it, then yea, mission accomplished.

 

But in my subjective opinion, I wouldn't have beaten the game. I didn't beat the mapmaker's challenges. And I didn't do some clever Kobayashu Maru shit either by cheating or abusing something, before someone tries to get clever.

 

Although I honestly feel I could make an "objectively sound" argument, I think you guys care more about this than I do. I don't know why this offends anyone. I've never beat Diablo 1 without doing some whack ass shit. If someone asks me if I beat it, I'd have to be honest. Not really. I mean I used like infinite apoc duping, it was trivial. I'd be a real douchebag to say I beat it. I have no trouble admitting I never really beat it. The Diablo fight wasn't designed around me using that exploit. I had enough fun doing it to keep pushing the button, but I have a feeling I'd have had more fun if I actually beat it legitimately - but I didn't like the game enough to devote more than a couple hours to it. 

[Clippy]

This thread is silly

[Major Arlene]

agreed

[Bridgeburner56]

2 minutes ago, Kute said:

Not really. I mean I used like infinite apoc duping, it was trivial. I'd be a real douchebag to say I beat it. I have no trouble admitting I never really beat it. The Diablo fight wasn't designed around me using that exploit. I had enough fun doing it to keep pushing the button, but I have a feeling I'd have had more fun if I actually beat it legitimately - but I didn't like the game enough to devote more than a couple hours to it. 

This is completely different. This is called cheating. Saving is an intended mechanic in Doom (along with many other games). 

Don't conflate deliberate design decisions with hard coded mechanics. Whether or not a map/wad is designed around pistol starts or continuous is completely in the purview of the mapper. You can ask them directly what the primary balance is for, at which point you are still free to play either way.
The ability to save has been part of the Doom engine since day dot. I have yet to see anyone release a mapset with the caveat "this was designed to be played without saves".