Why is there still so little documentation on Doom Builder 64?

[Koko Ricky]

Given that the editor has been around for years, and interest in Doom 64 modding has amplified recently, there really ought to be more tutorials on what is possible with scripting and flags. For example, map 23, Unholy Temple, has a clever puzzle requiring you to open a door by selecting the right skullkey combination.

 

If you open the map in DB64, you will find no macros (probably because macros are an approximation of the scripting language, obscuring the original code), leaving one to guess what all of the flagged and tagged lines outside of the map are doing. Even through experimentation, I've been unable to figure out how it was done, and the official web pages outlining how to write macros simply don't cover this. There are also some interesting looking features that are a complete mystery, like the way light sequencers work for sector actions.

 

The potential to create clever, dynamic, interesting puzzles and sequences is hurt by the absence of thorough documentation. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Koko Ricky

[Immorpher]

Here are the decompiled macros for the original Doom 64 levels which may help figuring out what is being done on that level: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e81mkkzb70iymh5/AABmqRogY3tqow_jkEzGmOmxa

Back in the day Kaiser made a tech bible and the Doom 64 EX wiki which helps. Explains things like pegging gradients but not everything.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihxbo4c1wrj2wb9
http://doom64ex.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php

Technically Doom 64 EX is still a beta and Doom Builder 64 is thus a beta as well. Doom Builder 64 doesn't even show up switches on the original Doom 64 levels because it doesn't recognize how they were originally made. Although I wasn't around the community when EX and DB64 originally were released, by looking at the number of maps released it seemed relatively slow for how monumental those two pieces of software were. It seems like not enough people jumped on board at the time to help develop the software and document it.

But now since the Remaster is out and there's seems to be more interest now, we can start doing more investigation and documenting these things! On the Doom 64 discord we've actually been discussing about writing a new document on Doom 64 modding; basically a follow up to Kaiser's tech bible. Here we can expand what is currently in the 25th Anniversary Mapping guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h7bbxzU1xEHg2gSbi_GDlV1VOqTQpzfecNon5Q_wv5w/

However, maybe the best way to go is perhaps is getting pages on https://doomwiki.org/. The Doom 64 EX source forge wiki password has been lost, so it cannot be updated anymore. Thus moving the EX wiki to Doom Wiki would be a good start. Then we can also add pages on how things worked originally in Doom 64 maps and how to achieve the same in Doom Builder 64.

[Redneckerz]

On 12/20/2021 at 8:22 PM, Immorpher said:

However, maybe the best way to go is perhaps is getting pages on https://doomwiki.org/. The Doom 64 EX source forge wiki password has been lost, so it cannot be updated anymore. Thus moving the EX wiki to Doom Wiki would be a good start. Then we can also add pages on how things worked originally in Doom 64 maps and how to achieve the same in Doom Builder 64.

If that is going to be the case, contact Xymph and/or Quasar on this matter. I am sure an agreement can be worked out where that stuff can be hauled over.*

 

*Ofcourse when those contents are there, you can expect ill add things in like a list of available Doom 64 EX content. Over the years, the (beta) port has become a platform of its own.

[Immorpher]

4 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

If that is going to be the case, contact Xymph and/or Quasar on this matter. I am sure an agreement can be worked out where that stuff can be hauled over.*

Especially with Quasar's inside connections! I will send a message over.

[sbw37]

On 12/20/2021 at 2:22 PM, Immorpher said:

Here are the decompiled macros for the original Doom 64 levels which may help figuring out what is being done on that level: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e81mkkzb70iymh5/AABmqRogY3tqow_jkEzGmOmxa

Back in the day Kaiser made a tech bible and the Doom 64 EX wiki which helps. Explains things like pegging gradients but not everything.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihxbo4c1wrj2wb9
http://doom64ex.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php

Technically Doom 64 EX is still a beta and Doom Builder 64 is thus a beta as well. Doom Builder 64 doesn't even show up switches on the original Doom 64 levels because it doesn't recognize how they were originally made. Although I wasn't around the community when EX and DB64 originally were released, by looking at the number of maps released it seemed relatively slow for how monumental those two pieces of software were. It seems like not enough people jumped on board at the time to help develop the software and document it.

But now since the Remaster is out and there's seems to be more interest now, we can start doing more investigation and documenting these things! On the Doom 64 discord we've actually been discussing about writing a new document on Doom 64 modding; basically a follow up to Kaiser's tech bible. Here we can expand what is currently in the 25th Anniversary Mapping guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h7bbxzU1xEHg2gSbi_GDlV1VOqTQpzfecNon5Q_wv5w/

However, maybe the best way to go is perhaps is getting pages on https://doomwiki.org/. The Doom 64 EX source forge wiki password has been lost, so it cannot be updated anymore. Thus moving the EX wiki to Doom Wiki would be a good start. Then we can also add pages on how things worked originally in Doom 64 maps and how to achieve the same in Doom Builder 64.

hey immorpher hope all is good. im curious, has yourself atomig frog, molleccio, zok  or others ever gotten requests to create maps based off other peoples ideas? i have a cool 3 map idea with a storyline if anyone is interested or if its possible considering the limitations of doom builder 64. id love nothing more than to do it myself. unfortunately its impossible to try to compete with all of you who have 10+ years experience and have the software down to a science as its agreed theres not too much documentation on how to learn it. i dont want credit, i just would love to see it come to fruition lol

 

[Immorpher]

I only have like 4 months experience in mapping haha, but I can certainly give advice on if something is possible or not depending on which Doom 64 port :)

[Dark Pulse]

I think there was also some talk about rebasing Doom Builder 64 on a newer fork of Doom Builder, as well - Doom Builder 64 is based off some older Doom Builder code, so it's got some silly bugs inherited from that, like the 3D view getting progressively choppier the longer the system's uptime is and so on. There's certainly enough documented that this should be doable, it's just a question of what to fork off of (presumably DBX, though UDB does rendering via OpenGL now, so that would be more cross-platformable?) and then someone actually doing the grunt work of re-implementing that support. (Presumably while stripping out everything else.)

 

Admittedly, the thought of being able to play both the PC version of Doom 64, and make new levels for it, all off a Steam Deck, is pretty cool :)

Edited March 24, 2022 by Dark Pulse

[sbw37]

5 hours ago, Immorpher said:

I only have like 4 months experience in mapping haha, but I can certainly give advice on if something is possible or not depending on which Doom 64 port :)

oh really? lol well from i saw your specialty is music (which is excellent) 

[sbw37]

4 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

I think there was also some talk about rebasing Doom Builder 64 on a newer fork of Doom Builder, as well - Doom Builder 64 is based off some older Doom Builder code, so it's got some silly bugs inherited from that, like the 3D view getting progressively choppier the longer the system's uptime is and so on. There's certainly enough documented that this should be doable, it's just a question of what to fork off of (presumably DBX, though UDB does rendering via OpenGL now, so that would be more cross-platformable?) and then someone actually doing the grunt work of re-implementing that support. (Presumably while stripping out everything else.)

 

Admittedly, the thought of being able to play both the PC version of Doom 64, and make new levels for it, all off a Steam Deck, is pretty cool :)

with all the talk of rebasing, is there a way to make it user friendly? also the ability to expand the limitations of the content? the way ive thought of doing the maps is similar to what the GEC team is doing...added textures, sprites and animated, a few new enemies etc. something fresh and new. hopefully off the backbone of redemption/CE. nothing too over the top as far as the complexity of the level design or the difficulty. but as ive stated on another thread i know nothing of what a line def is or any of that. complete lament lol it sucks because ive got the vision, but lack the talent like you guys have

[Immorpher]

37 minutes ago, sbw37 said:

with all the talk of rebasing, is there a way to make it user friendly? also the ability to expand the limitations of the content? the way ive thought of doing the maps is similar to what the GEC team is doing...added textures, sprites and animated, a few new enemies etc. something fresh and new. hopefully off the backbone of redemption/CE. nothing too over the top as far as the complexity of the level design or the difficulty. but as ive stated on another thread i know nothing of what a line def is or any of that. complete lament lol it sucks because ive got the vision, but lack the talent like you guys have

Pretty much if you use Retribution / CE you can do anything you want and have all of the enemies you want. Anything GZDoom can do is available to you. It's only if you go to the more vanilla ports like EX and the Remaster, where you have stricter limits.

[styd051]

@sbw37 I was a bit like you at first when I started modding DOOM, I had no knowledge of mapping or scripting, but by dint of creating mods my knowledge of mapping or scripting has progressed well since then, now I can do almost anything but it takes a lot of time, and still I still have things to learn to become very good at modding.

[sbw37]

1 hour ago, styd051 said:

@sbw37 I was a bit like you at first when I started modding DOOM, I had no knowledge of mapping or scripting, but by dint of creating mods my knowledge of mapping or scripting has progressed well since then, now I can do almost anything but it takes a lot of time, and still I still have things to learn to become very good at modding.

where and how did you start from those humble beginnings? i have to guess there was a lot of trial and error for you right? 

 

[sbw37]

2 hours ago, Immorpher said:

Pretty much if you use Retribution / CE you can do anything you want and have all of the enemies you want. Anything GZDoom can do is available to you. It's only if you go to the more vanilla ports like EX and the Remaster, where you have stricter limits.

how would i start? you and styd are talking to a complete ignoramus right now lol

 

[Dark Pulse]

35 minutes ago, sbw37 said:

how would i start? you and styd are talking to a complete ignoramus right now lol

There's all sorts of tutorials on learning how to map for Doom on Youtube.

 

While Doom 64 does have some additions and differences, the fundamental basics are still the same.

[sbw37]

8 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

There's all sorts of tutorials on learning how to map for Doom on Youtube.

 

While Doom 64 does have some additions and differences, the fundamental basics are still the same.

cool ill look into it. thanks for the advice :)

[Immorpher]

Indeed tutorials on YouTube are the way to go. Start by just doing some vanilla Doom 2 mapping, if you want to make maps. You dont need to actually make a finished map, just practice a bit making sectors.

The way I learned how to make custom enemies was actually looking at the Doom 64 Retribution code, on how it added enemies. And if you are on discord, I can recommend some places for modding help too!

[styd051]

10 hours ago, sbw37 said:

where and how did you start from those humble beginnings? i have to guess there was a lot of trial and error for you right? 

 

 

I first started modding with the map editor, first I learned how mapping works, then after I learned how scripts work, which is more complicated by the way, and yes I made a lot of mistakes and tests to arrive at what I wanted to create, if you are interested in modding doom I advise you to start with mapping.

 

@Immorpher oh you have a discord I'm interested can I join your discord ?

[Dexiaz]

19 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

I think there was also some talk about rebasing Doom Builder 64 on a newer fork of Doom Builder

BTW, can we ask somebody for doing this? Or it's impossible request?

 

@Erick194 did a fork for PSX Builder, but idk about working on D64

[Dark Pulse]

56 minutes ago, Dexiaz said:

BTW, can we ask somebody for doing this? Or it's impossible request?

 

@Erick194 did a fork for PSX Builder, but idk about working on D64

Certainly not impossible, someone just has to have the know-how and be willing to put in the time for the rest of us.

 

That said, we definitely need to know how mapping for EX can differ from the remaster. Possibly might even need two different map subset types, although IIRC the only change is stricter limits on the remaster while EX has some things more loose.

[Immorpher]

1 hour ago, styd051 said:

@Immorpher oh you have a discord I'm interested can I join your discord ?

Ya here's a few!

Doom 64 Discord: https://discord.gg/Ktxz8nz

Ultimate Doom Builder (good for mapping advice): https://discord.gg/b6bS9G58gT

ZDoom discord (good for modding advice): https://dsc.gg/zdoom

 

51 minutes ago, Dexiaz said:

BTW, can we ask somebody for doing this? Or it's impossible request?

I did talk to boris over at ultimate doom builder and he said he wouldn't have the time to add and maintain the Doom 64 format support. Might make sense to update that PSX builder for D64 support.

[Immorpher]

Just now, Dark Pulse said:

That said, we definitely need to know how mapping for EX can differ from the remaster. Possibly might even need two different map subset types, although IIRC the only change is stricter limits on the remaster while EX has some things more loose.

Oh and the map formats are pretty much identical between Remaster and EX. Just the engines run things slightly differently.

[Dark Pulse]

31 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

Oh and the map formats are pretty much identical between Remaster and EX. Just the engines run things slightly differently.

Still need to know the differences, and if it's anything that would require mapping differently, that would need to be accounted for, as presumably most people would want it compatible with both EX and the Remaster if possible.

[Immorpher]

2 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Still need to know the differences, and if it's anything that would require mapping differently, that would need to be accounted for, as presumably most people would want it compatible with both EX and the Remaster if possible.

We've documented a few here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h7bbxzU1xEHg2gSbi_GDlV1VOqTQpzfecNon5Q_wv5w/

Two main things is that the Remaster doesn't support transparency in lower textures, also having teleport actions in a large macro can bug out. There's a few other things too.

[Dark Pulse]

1 hour ago, Immorpher said:

We've documented a few here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h7bbxzU1xEHg2gSbi_GDlV1VOqTQpzfecNon5Q_wv5w/

Two main things is that the Remaster doesn't support transparency in lower textures, also having teleport actions in a large macro can bug out. There's a few other things too.

Yeah, I glanced over that doc.

 

Sounds like what should be done, then, is if specific things like that are known, to have the map checker check for those, and if they are found, warn that the Remaster may not properly run the WAD (but EX will).

[Immorpher]

23 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Sounds like what should be done, then, is if specific things like that are known, to have the map checker check for those, and if they are found, warn that the Remaster may not properly run the WAD (but EX will).

Yes that is a fantastic idea! We havent tested enough to tell when it should and shouldn't work, but ya warnings should make compatible mapping so much easier.