If Final Doom had a third IWAD, what would it be?

[OpenRift]

Of all the big PWADs to come out circa late 1995 to early/mid '96, which ones would do you think would have been picked if id was looking for a trio of IWADs instead of just a duo?

 

Or maybe you have your own concept for what that WAD would be?

 

Feel free to share down below.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

I think the obvious answer is Perdition's Gate. Tom Mustaine originally planned for it to be included, but it wasn't finished in time. It was packed with Hell 2 Pay, so they are kind of like Final Doom 2, if that makes sense.

Also Icarus could've been added too. Seeing as Final Doom centered around Team TNT, I don't see something like Memento Mori being added. Would've been cool though.

[adamastor]

I agree with Dusty here. It might also have been cool if Enigma got the MegaWAD treatment, coupled with more TNT members, Obituary could have been fun as well and, of course MM, as it was already mentioned.

Edit: It might be fun to imagine a version of NRFTL released as the third half of Final Doom back in those days.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Mr. Kong

[xdude_gamer]

One of these WADs, more than likely:

 

Icarus: Alien Vanguard or Perdition's Gate (as Dusty said)
Jim Flynn's Enigma (maybe an expanded version, as Mr. Kong said)
MAYBE Obituary or any of the Innocent Crew's godly creatons (as Mr. Kong said)
Possibly an entirely brand new mapset that could've been revolutionary. We'll never know. [Maybe Eternal Doom could've gotten the last minute treatment but probably not.]
 

[HavoX]

Either Icarus: Alien Vanguard or Perdition's Gate.

 

The quality of Icarus: Alien Vanguard is absolute top notch, even by today's standard. That would've made a good candidate for the third IWAD.

 

The same would be said for Perdition's Gate, had it been finished on time. But, that's the way it goes.

Edited January 5, 2022 by HavoX

[Andromeda]

Memento Mori II

[Astronomical]

Assuming that we were tapping from the tnt library, I would say Icarus would be the clear choice with it's custom music and textures all being original and therefor not being an issue for commercial use, if Id was reaching out to the whole community however I would say Memento Mori II had a shot because it had a few tools on it's side to help it.  The wad was a sequel to a popular wad, but it tends to avoid some of the issues or has fewer of them than the original.  I've only played the first few maps so maybe it regresses back into the problems of the original, but at least it makes an good first impression compared to the first wad.   

[Master O]

https://web.archive.org/web/20211007001312/http://www.mustaine.com/about/video-game-work/perditions-gate/

 

On the subject of Perdition's Gate, Mustaine said on a previous Doomworld forum thread that it is no longer under copyright. I assume it can also be uploaded to /idgames at some point if anyone wants to do that.

[Hypercube]

I have to disagree on Icarus. From what I know, Icarus was made exactly because Evilution became part of Final Doom. Originally Evilution was supposed to be a free megawad. When Team TNT decided to give it away as a part of Final Doom, they received massive amounts of negative feedback. Because of this, TNT promised an another free megawad to gain back the respect of the community, and so Icarus was born. Turning Icarus into a commercial wad would gone against the ideology of the wad and Team TNT. However, even when not being part of Final Doom, Icarus is a classic and still fun to play. Essential 90s megawad along with Memento Mori I and II, Eternal Doom, Requiem and Hell Revealed.

 

2 hours ago, Master O said:

On the subject of Perdition's Gate, Mustaine said on a previous Doomworld forum thread that it is no longer under copyright. I assume it can also be uploaded to /idgames at some point if anyone wants to do that.

I agree. Perdition's Gate is part of Doom history. As it is no longer available on Mustaine's website, it should be saved by uploading it to idgames, if there are no legal reasons restricting it.

 

As for the topic itself, I want recommend Doom Zero for anyone who has not played it yet. Even though it is 2019 wad, it imagines itself as third megawad of Final Doom.. and in my opinion it succeeds. It really gets the 96 megawad aesthetics, but still manages to create fresh and unique experience.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Hypercube

[ReaperAA]

8 hours ago, Hypercube said:

I have to disagree on Icarus. From what I know, Icarus was made exactly because Evilution became part of Final Doom. Originally Evilution was supposed to be a free megawad. When Team TNT decided to give it away as a part of Final Doom, they received massive amounts of negative feedback. Because of this, TNT promised an another free megawad to gain back the respect of the community, and so Icarus was born. Turning Icarus into a commercial wad would gone against the ideology of the wad and Team TNT.

 

Exactly. There is no way Icarus would have been the 3rd Final Doom wad, simply because Icarus was born for the sole reason to make up for turning Evilution into a commercial wad.

 

I think either Perdition's Gate or Memento Mori 2 would have been the best candidates for the 3rd Final Doom wad. Perdition's Gate was literally designed in hope of becoming the 3rd Final Doom wad, but unfortunately missed the deadline. Memento Mori 2 was developed around the same time period and probably would have been a good candidate for a Final Doom wad as it was the sequel to the popular MM wad.

[Faceman2000]

19 hours ago, Master O said:

it is no longer under copyright

This is not accurate.

[Master O]

21 minutes ago, Faceman2000 said:

This is not accurate.

 

 

[Faceman2000]

15 minutes ago, Master O said:

 

 

Huh. I stand corrected. Everything I’d seen related to it said the rights were still with Atari and that labeling it abandonware wasn’t legally accurate. Thanks for the correction!

[T-Rex]

I think it would be a contest between Perdition's Gate, Memento Mori II. or, if id decided against making the Master Levels for Doom II a collection of PWADs, compiled the wads together and added 11 more maps to make a full 32-level megawad.

[SiFi270]

"This CD includes Memento Mori 2, but I don't know anything about the first one! Maybe it can be downloaded from somewhere, but it's 1996 and I don't have a suitable connection for that! Maybe it's in one of these shovelware collections id doesn't want me to buy... only one way to find out!" - An entirely hypothetical chump.

 

I dunno I just checked the wiki and Wad Archive to see if it was included in any of those compilations, and it doesn't seem to have been, even though the .txt file gives permission for anyone except Microsoft to do so.

[RonLivingston]

There is final doom return of the evil god, That could be a third installation of final doom

[LadyMistDragon]

Perdition's Gate, since id would've included it if it had been finished sooner.

[Matt Mello]

Aside from the obvious choice of Perdition's Gate, I'm not sure.

If anything, I could see id commissioning four IWAD's for this hypothetical iteration of Final Doom. The obvious ones would be TNT, Plutonia, and Perdition's Gate and the fourth one would be an entirely new expansion.

Maybe a full version of John Anderson's Dante's Inferno MegaWAD? We got to see a few levels from that in The Master Levels and they are generally considered among the better levels in that expansion.

[Individualised]

Perdition's Gate is the factually correct answer to this because it was originally made for Final Doom. I'm glad that it wasn't included to be honest, it doesn't feel like an IWAD at all and the maps are nowhere near the same quality as those seen in TNT and Plutonia. I heard that the version originally developed for id was much different though, maybe it was once a better fit.

 

If you want a less boring answer, maybe a megawad version of Master Levels given that there's enough scrapped maps to fill the remaining 11 slots and that half of Final Doom for PS1 is actually Master Levels maps. Doom Zero is also intended to be a theoretical "what if?" third Final Doom campaign, too bad it was decades late.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Individualised

[Devalaous]

9 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Perdition's Gate is the factually correct answer to this because it was originally made for Final Doom. I'm glad that it wasn't included to be honest, it doesn't feel like an IWAD at all and the maps are nowhere near the same quality as those seen in TNT and Plutonia. I heard that the version originally developed for id was much different though, maybe it was once a better fit.

 

Keep in mind that TNT was edited by I'd for a year and what we got was heavily changed from what was originally bought out, Perditions Gate would have likely been heavily altered too and definitely stripped of some of the awkward non-iwadlike stuff like the menu graphics and the CWILV trickery.

[Individualised]

16 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

 

Keep in mind that TNT was edited by I'd for a year and what we got was heavily changed from what was originally bought out, Perditions Gate would have likely been heavily altered too and definitely stripped of some of the awkward non-iwadlike stuff like the menu graphics and the CWILV trickery.

I always assumed the weirdness was added for Perdition's Gate's retail release rather than being something originally intended. Even without the meta/fluff stuff though the maps in Perdition's Gate just don't feel like IWAD maps to me. IIRC TNT's maps weren't edited that much by id other than the ones that were replaced altogether.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Individualised

[Kyka]

Alien Vendetta: Final Doom 3.

 

This time it's really really final.

 

On a serious note, I was thinking Cleimos /Cleimos 2, appropriately expanded and modified, would have made a really good third iwad. Requiem, if it had been made a year or two earlier. 

 

Of course the previously mentioned Perditions gate and Icarus would be the most likely candidates.

[OniriA]

Hdoom

[OpenRift]

8 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 

Keep in mind that TNT was edited by I'd for a year and what we got was heavily changed from what was originally bought out, Perditions Gate would have likely been heavily altered too and definitely stripped of some of the awkward non-iwadlike stuff like the menu graphics and the CWILV trickery.

Honestly I'm very curious of what that version of TNT was like. Have we ever seen what that pre-Final Doom TNT looked like? Like screenshots, a leaked WAD, anything?

[Faceman2000]

We know of a couple things: there were four (iirc) Casali maps cut or rejected, one being NoMercy.wad (an IoS) map, and the others winding up in Plutonia. Dario couldn’t recall which exactly but suggested  the others were Map02, Map08, and Map09 of Plutonia.

 

There’s also DataSquid.wad on idgames, which states in its text file that it was cut from the TNT project but doesn’t specify which. It was made by a TNT member and has been suggested as a possible Evilution reject, but since it’s DM-only it seems feasible it was just cut from one of TNT’s many deathmatch wads.

[DNSKILL5]

Is the question what would it be or what should it have been?
 

I think it would’ve certainly been Perditions Gate, but it likely would have not been what it ended up being in the end had it been a part of Final Doom.

 

As for what it should’ve been? I think Master Levels could’ve been reworked into a MegaWAD release instead of being an individual pWADs collection. I feel it would’ve been more memorable as such, rather than just a collection of levels you select in a menu. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by CAM-7EA

[Matt Mello]

17 minutes ago, CAM-7EA said:

Is the question what would it be or what should it have been?
 

I think it would’ve certainly been Perditions Gate, but it likely would have not been what it ended up being in the end had it been a part of Final Doom.

 

As for what it should’ve been? I think Master Levels could’ve been reworked into a MegaWAD release instead of being an individual pWADs collection. I feel it would’ve been more memorable as such, rather than just a collection of levels you select in a menu. 

More specifically, Dr. Sleep's Dante's Inferno-themed levels (Virgil, Geryon, Minos Judgment, Nessus, Vesperas) from The Master Levels could've made for a great MegaWAD release for Final Doom and it was going to be a MegaWAD that eventually got abandoned but then parts of it got added into The Master Levels.