Question regarding strafe running and level progression.

[Kyka]

So I am working on a map. It is a vanilla map, close to vanilla limits, but without some work will have to be limit removing rather than pure vanilla. And as I was making this map, I put in a couple of 'jumps' across several platforms to access a key. And as I was working on the distances between the platforms, I suddenly had a thought: Is it acceptable to assume that everyone knows about straferunning, or is it expected for 'normal progression' areas of a map that everything be accessible by regular sprinting?

 

My guess is that having areas, even progress-critical areas, being accessible only with straferunning is fine by modern dooming standards, but it seemed like a good idea to ask for second opinions.

 

[edit] by 'straferunning' in this case specifically, I meant the use of sprint forwards and left or right strafe activated at the same time, meaning standard SR40, and not SR50. Even though the term 'straferunning' does cover both of these types of movement. I should have specified.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Kyka

[thiccyosh]

My guess is that you can teach the player how to straferun (or show them that strafterunning is needed) by actively using it in your map. Make the first or so areas where the player has to straferun easy. By that I mean that the first pit shouldn't be filled with 20 dmging slime but instead should have safe ground so that newer players can try out straferunning or even practice, meanwhile experienced players don't get bored to death with mechanics they already know. So it is acceptable to add those sections if you ask me, however the player must know in those sections that straferunning is required, with the good rule of thumb to show and not tell.

[boris]

The question is: are you willing to block someone from progression who doesn't know about strafe running? And even with strafe running there's a wide margin. SR40? SR50? How precise has the "jump" to be (i.e. the more off you are from the perpendicular the less distance you can jump)?

 

If you want to require strafe running you might want to put it into the map's readme, at least then nobody can complain ;)

 

[horselessheadsman]

If the jumps are only possible by straferunning, players who either don't bother with it or don't know about it are going to get
irritated by failed jumps, especially if the jump is to a progress-required area or item.
It depends on who you expect to play the wad, I suppose.

[MFG38]

I don't see anything wrong with areas requiring straferunning to access even if they are mandatory for progression, as long as it's just SR40. I straferun through maps most of the time anyway, and 99% of players who didn't just get into Doom last week will almost inevitably know it's a thing.

[BaileyTW]

I don't exactly think it is an easy thing to teach someone to straferun through a map if they don't already know, so if that might be an issue it would best to describe it in the readme and exactly what straferunning is. As for the map itself, a gap that isn't able to be crossed with normal sprinting but can be crossed with sr40 might not seem traversable to someone not as comfortable with straferunning, so if it is required for progression you might want mark it in a way to imply that it is crossable.

[xvertigox]

1 hour ago, boris said:

The question is: are you willing to block someone from progression who doesn't know about strafe running? And even with strafe running there's a wide margin. SR40? SR50? How precise has the "jump" to be (i.e. the more off you are from the perpendicular the less distance you can jump)?

 

If you want to require strafe running you might want to put it into the map's readme, at least then nobody can complain ;)

 

 

I agree with everything boris' said. 'Simple' jumps are fine but I wouldn't add required SR50 or even difficult SR40 jumps unless it's going to be known as a challenge wad and you expect the players to be well experienced.

[Summer Deep]

LOL, check this out:

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/v-z/watrsp

 

SR40 required right at the start. Great wad, by the way!

[RHhe82]

Like @MFG38 said, I'd think the proverbial 99% of players know basic straferunning. It's hard for me to truly picture myself as someone who's only just started playing Doom, but a mapper can in my opinion safely assume that each and every player has completed at least one of the IWADs (Doom II most likely) so they should know the basic mechanics and tricks that are either required in the said IWADs or player most likely has at least attempted. I think strafing and running is something that will just naturally occur to anyone trying to make some jump.

 

But I wonder, are there are some tricks that's just not cool to require? I was trying out the Meowgi's Practice Wad and thanking my good fortunes that I have very little desire to be a pro speedrunner. For instance: would it be okay to require item bumping techniques? Without mentioning that such trickery has to be performed? Or the glitch that makes the doomguy go through cracks that seem impassable?

[SMG_Man]

If it's a jump required for progression and you're not intending to make the map a "difficult" map, the way I would handle it is to make sure it's still possible to make the jump without straferunning at all. Things like straferunning and death exits are very difficult to communicate to players in-game if they have no prior knowledge of them, so unless your target audience is skilled players, I wouldn't make them mandatory.

[Kyka]

Thank you for the replies everyone. Reading through the replies, there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule about the use of SR40 for an 'average' player on an 'average map.' I think it best that I err on the side of caution and make all mission critical areas accessible from standard forward sprinting. Especially in this case, where the mapset I am working on (TNT Forever) styles itself as a modern 'classic' megawad, which I think should be accessible to Doomers of all tastes and skill levels. It is probably best to allow progression to people who just want to play on ITYTD, or players who just want to take a more 'tourist' styled approach.

 

@thiccyosh This is a good suggestion, about introducing the player to straferunning jumps, without slowing down players who are experienced. This seems like a good way to cover all the bases. I think most players, can tell by sight, to a reasonable degree, whether a jump requires straferunning or not, and most players will use straferunning if in doubt. (The operative word here being 'most'; I admit this is a gross generalisation.) Does anyone know if any of the iwads have areas that require straferunning? (Off the top of my head, the secret pit with the invisibility and the soul sphere on Doom2 map 03 is straferun accessible only I think? I know Doom2 map 4 can have the exit room bridge bypassed by SR50, but this doesn't count in terms of progression.)

 

@boris Yes you raise good points. I should have specified whether I was referring to SR40 or SR50, as the term 'straferunning' covers both of these types of movement. I have edited the OP to show this. Also the point about having to be perpendicular to make some strafe jumps is a good one. My intent was not to require such high levels of skill as requiring SR50, or requiring a huge precision of directional movement, but more to establish whether a minimum level of straferunning requirement is acceptable to impose upon the 'average' player, or even upon new players. Putting a note in the Readme seems reasonable also. I wouldn't have even thought of that. :)

 

4 hours ago, horselessheadsman said:

It depends on who you expect to play the wad, I suppose.

This is the question exactly. :) Seeing as this maspet is a community mapset, and is going to be a modern 'classic' megawad aimed at any and all doomers, as I said above I think it best to err on the side of caution and only require regular sprinting for all required areas. Thanks for the reply.

 

3 hours ago, MFG38 said:

I don't see anything wrong with areas requiring straferunning to access even if they are mandatory for progression, as long as it's just SR40. I straferun through maps most of the time anyway, and 99% of players who didn't just get into Doom last week will almost inevitably know it's a thing.

 

This was exactly my thoughts prior to making this thread. :)  But I am gonna err on the side of caution, as this thread seems to suggest that it is not as clear cut as I had assumed. Especially as the mapset we are making is intended as a classic 'open to all doomers' wad, this seems like the best approach.

 

3 hours ago, BaileyTW said:

I don't exactly think it is an easy thing to teach someone to straferun through a map if they don't already know, so if that might be an issue it would best to describe it in the readme and exactly what straferunning is. As for the map itself, a gap that isn't able to be crossed with normal sprinting but can be crossed with sr40 might not seem traversable to someone not as comfortable with straferunning, so if it is required for progression you might want mark it in a way to imply that it is crossable.

 

Another good point. To make sure that players know an area is traversable would much more likely make them try straferunning if they did not normally use it, than if they assumed the gap was not crossable in the first place. Thanks for the reply. Heh I had not assumed there would be so many subtleties about something that I had just assumed was universal. :)

 

3 hours ago, xvertigox said:

 

I agree with everything boris' said. 'Simple' jumps are fine but I wouldn't add required SR50 or even difficult SR40 jumps unless it's going to be known as a challenge wad and you expect the players to be well experienced.

 

Thanks for the reply. :) Yes this does seem to be the general consensus, and I will err on the side of caution in this case, especially seeing as we are making a classic styled megawad. 

 

2 hours ago, Summer Deep said:

LOL, check this out:

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/v-z/watrsp

 

SR40 required right at the start. Great wad, by the way!

 

I will check it out, in fact as soon as I have finished typing this post. Thanks for the reply. :)

 

1 hour ago, RHhe82 said:

Like @MFG38 said, I'd think the proverbial 99% of players know basic straferunning. It's hard for me to truly picture myself as someone who's only just started playing Doom, but a mapper can in my opinion safely assume that each and every player has completed at least one of the IWADs (Doom II most likely) so they should know the basic mechanics and tricks that are either required in the said IWADs or player most likely has at least attempted. I think strafing and running is something that will just naturally occur to anyone trying to make some jump.

 

But I wonder, are there are some tricks that's just not cool to require? I was trying out the Meowgi's Practice Wad and thanking my good fortunes that I have very little desire to be a pro speedrunner. For instance: would it be okay to require item bumping techniques? Without mentioning that such trickery has to be performed? Or the glitch that makes the doomguy go through cracks that seem impassable?

 

Thanks for the reply. Yes you raise points that I wanted to establish exactly. Where is the line between what you should expect of 'all' players, and what you would expect of an 'experienced' player, or even an elite player? Before writing this post, I would have assumed that SR40 is something that I could expect 'all' players, but reading this thread, that does not seem to be a universal assumption. I have decided to err on the side of caution, and not require SR40 for mission critical areas, especially seeing as the mapset is one that is aimed at all Doomers at all skill levels. I remember there was a secret in TNT: Revilution (I think?) that required wallrunning, and I couldn't nail it, and it did frustrate me that I couldn't get that secret, no matter how hard I tried straferunning. Wallrunning never occured to me at that time, though it would occur to me now. (I don't think all ports support wallrunning by default, but that is another whole can of worms!) Also thanks for the heads up about Meowgi's practice wad. Like you I have little desire to be a pro speedrunner, and in my case, don't have the skill/fine motor control/reflexes required to be even close to world class even if I did have the desire. I don't even know what item bumping is, though I have seen some great speedruns that use the glitch that allow impassable areas to be traversed.

 

17 minutes ago, SMG_Man said:

If it's a jump required for progression and you're not intending to make the map a "difficult" map, the way I would handle it is to make sure it's still possible to make the jump without straferunning at all. Things like straferunning and death exits are very difficult to communicate to players in-game if they have no prior knowledge of them, so unless your target audience is skilled players, I wouldn't make them mandatory.

 

Thank you for the reply. :) Yes in the end, I concur with your position. I had assumed before making this thread that normal straferunning (SR40 not SR50) was a universal practice of modern doomers, but reading this thread has caused me to not hold that idea now, especially seeing as the wad in question we are making is a modern 'classic' megawad that is aimed at all doomers. If straferunning is not already known, it would be virtually impossible to convey in game, short of having a texture with text explaining straferunning in the level itself, which seems a surefire way to break immersion. :)

 

Thanks everyone for the replies. Much appreciated.

[Edward850]

Just be aware that regardless of how well known or not strafe-running is, strafe-running isn't always possible under every configuration. It's typically harder for joysticks to perform given they have physically rounded input.

[beast]

I really suck at straferunning, but that is just me.

 

If the area to reach is required for progression, create an alternate path to reach it without straferunning. This path can be longer and takes more time, but is still accessible for players who are not concerned with best speed. Then you keep everybody happy.

[roadworx]

well...here's a question for you. do you really think that someone who knows enough about doom to find your wad, would not know that straferunning exists?

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, Kyka said:

Does anyone know if any of the iwads have areas that require straferunning? (Off the top of my head, the secret pit with the invisibility and the soul sphere on Doom2 map 03 is straferun accessible only I think? I know Doom2 map 4 can have the exit room bridge bypassed by SR50, but this doesn't count in terms of progression.)

Pretty sure that nothing in the IWADs requires straferunning, considering it's an engine bug. The pit in MAP03 doesn't require it either - the intended way to get that secret is to raise the bridge to the teleporter, then use the additional distance to gain more momentum to perform the jump.

 

I'd suggest that any jumps are designed to be possible without straferunning, either that or add a note in the text file that straferunning may be required in places like the others have said already.

[SMG_Man]

6 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Pretty sure that nothing in the IWADs requires straferunning, considering it's an engine bug.

 

Also worth noting per the doom wiki,

 

Quote

According to John Romero, straferunning did not come about until almost a year after Doom's release, and was unanticipated in the design of the original levels.

 

So it's safe to say that nothing in the original Doom or Doom 2 required straferunning.

[Maribo]

SR40 jumps are pretty much basic tech in modern Doom, at least for kb+m players. That said, if you're going to make it mandatory, I would give a reasonable amount of distance for a running start, assuming you aren't making a wad geared towards higher difficulty. You could also just relegate them to jumps for secrets.

4 hours ago, RHhe82 said:

But I wonder, are there are some tricks that's just not cool to require? I was trying out the Meowgi's Practice Wad and thanking my good fortunes that I have very little desire to be a pro speedrunner. For instance: would it be okay to require item bumping techniques? Without mentioning that such trickery has to be performed? Or the glitch that makes the doomguy go through cracks that seem impassable?

Some personal opinions from a speedrunner:

Mandatory SR50 would suck (I personally think it's fine for secrets, at least in challenge wads). Zero press/impse glides would be insane to put as intended strategies in a normal wad. Item bumping would also suck because of the directions you have to do in a really finnick-y way. I have seen rocket jumps mandatory in some challenge wads, I think it's fine as long as the jump isn't super tight. I have also seen Archvile jumps be mandatory, but usually this is done like.... You spawn in a box with a vile in front of or behind you and you need the vile to blast you up out of the box, rather than a jump that you have to intentionally line up somewhere. Glides (going through cracks) would be very unfriendly, both as mandatory progression and secrets, but honestly I think it would be completely fine to use guided glides for secrets... But I think most wouldn't agree.

Pretty much, most of the tricks would be unfriendly at best and would probably make most players instantly quit, at worst. This is all assuming these would be used in a regular pwad intended for casual gameplay and not something like the practice hub that is geared specifically towards speedrunners as an audience.

[Nine Inch Heels]

11 hours ago, Kyka said:

Is it acceptable to assume that everyone knows about straferunning, or is it expected for 'normal progression' areas of a map that everything be accessible by regular sprinting?

There is no good answer...

 

On one hand, many people in the community know about straferunning, how to do it, and they made it a habit - on the other hand you have for example people like "Icaruslives" who has been running a mod-review-channel on YT for a very long time, all Doom-related, as far as I'm aware, and one unfortunate day he tested something Obsidian made, which had a mandatory SR40 jump in it, and he couldn't figure it out for hours...

 

It's for that reason that I think it is best to map with a supposed audience in mind while accepting that any given choice you may make while mapping might not be everybody's cup of tea...

 

My impression overall is that "modern maps" often assume people know how to SR40, and "modern hard maps" have places where SR50 is mandatory - but that is to be taken with a grain of salt, because I use SR40 all the time without even thinking about it. That said, my stance is that it's fine to assume SR40 will be accepted by a lot of people, while SR50 might ruffle some feathers - and the further down the rabbit hole of "trickeries" you go past SR40, the more sense it makes to be upfront about it when you release your product. That way, you can always say that you've been giving out a fair warning ahead of time.

 

Alternatively, and depending on how crafty you are, you could make environmental changes based on difficulty settings to have all bases covered. It's certainly also possible in vanilla format maps, although I will have to add that boom and anything more "advanced" than that will make the process significantly easier due to (pseudo) scripting...

Edited January 9, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[ReaperAA]

24 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

On one hand, many people in the community know about straferunning, how to do it, and they made it a habit - on the other hand you have for example people like "Icaruslives" who has been running a mod-review-channel on YT for a very long time, all Doom-related, as far as I'm aware, and one unfortunate day he tested something Obsidian made, which had a mandatory SR40 jump in it, and he couldn't figure it out for hours...

 

Exactly. Straferunning is apparantly not so common among your average joe youtubers. Another youtuber I know is Kes Gaming, who has been playing Doom for over a year now, but I can guarantee that he would not have figured out straferunning if someone hadn't told him about it. What's funny is that he still doesn't use it because he finds it hard (even though SR40 is really easy to perform). And whenever he did SR40 for performing a jump, his jump is usually not better than what an experienced player can do with straight running.

Edited January 9, 2022 by ReaperAA

[Thelokk]

Straferunning? maybe for a secret area at most, nothing more than that. 

 

it bears repeating (it also happens to be a huge peeve of mine): Doom is NOT a platformer. It never was, it isn't and it will never be. It just doesn't have the control granularity and the physics necessary to be one. I still have to see one map where straferunning isn't just an artificial gagstop meant to frustrate. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Thelokk

[Kyka]

Once again thanks for the replies, and glad that this subject has raised such an interesting discussion. Mentally before this thread, I had assumed that SR40 was considered a 'basic' skill on the same level as sprinting/firing a weapon/opening doors. Something basic and foundational to just playing Doom. As opposed to higher level 'elite' skills such as SR50, rocket jumps, squeezing through impassible gaps. But this thread has shown me that this is clearly not the case and perhaps SR40 falls into an 'intermediate' category of Doom skills - not foundational/required such as opening doors or sprinting, but not in the same level as elite skills like SR50 and the like.

 

Long story short, as I explained above, it really seems best that I make all 'required progression' areas reachable by straight sprinting, and limit SR40 for secrets/bonus areas only. The mapset is a modern 'classic' vanilla-but-limit-removing megawad, so this seems like the best approach. Thanks again for all the replies. SO many different perspectives on such a seemingly straightforward (pun intended) subject.

 

Next question. Is it reasonable to place a regular progression exit switch in a totally isolated room, reachable only by void glide? Everyone knows how to void glide amirite? Surely void glides are universally known? I will even put a big red arrow pointing to the void glide trigger corner,  along with a rocket launcher and some rockets. :D (j/k - I won't put any rockets.)

 

14 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Just be aware that regardless of how well known or not strafe-running is, strafe-running isn't always possible under every configuration. It's typically harder for joysticks to perform given they have physically rounded input.

 

See here is another perspective that I had not considered. Thanks for the reply. Duly noted.

 

13 hours ago, beast said:

I really suck at straferunning, but that is just me.

 

If the area to reach is required for progression, create an alternate path to reach it without straferunning. This path can be longer and takes more time, but is still accessible for players who are not concerned with best speed. Then you keep everybody happy.

 

This is another really good idea. I won't use it in this case, I will simply make this platform reachable by simple sprinting. But for future reference I will remember this suggestion. Thank you. :)

 

13 hours ago, roadworx said:

well...here's a question for you. do you really think that someone who knows enough about doom to find your wad, would not know that straferunning exists?

 

Before this thread, I had assumed this to be the case. People who play Doom nowadays have to be at least moderately hardcore, and would know things like straferunning. :) But it does seem this is not universally the case! Thanks for the comment.

 

12 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Pretty sure that nothing in the IWADs requires straferunning, considering it's an engine bug. The pit in MAP03 doesn't require it either - the intended way to get that secret is to raise the bridge to the teleporter, then use the additional distance to gain more momentum to perform the jump.

 

I'd suggest that any jumps are designed to be possible without straferunning, either that or add a note in the text file that straferunning may be required in places like the others have said already.

 

Thanks Andromeda. Yeah well said. I had assumed the Gantlet secret was only accessible by straferunning, I did not even know that it could be accessed in the way you posted here. Goes to show that we can always learn something new. Thanks for the comment. :)

 

12 hours ago, SMG_Man said:

 

Also worth noting per the doom wiki,

 

 

So it's safe to say that nothing in the original Doom or Doom 2 required straferunning.

 

I also didn't know that straferunning was a bug in the original Doom iwad, and was discovered after the fact. Really interesting. Makes sense that nowhere in the iwads is straferunning required, even for secrets. Thanks for the clarification. Appreciated.

 

12 hours ago, Maribo said:

SR40 jumps are pretty much basic tech in modern Doom, at least for kb+m players. That said, if you're going to make it mandatory, I would give a reasonable amount of distance for a running start, assuming you aren't making a wad geared towards higher difficulty. You could also just relegate them to jumps for secrets.

Some personal opinions from a speedrunner:

Mandatory SR50 would suck (I personally think it's fine for secrets, at least in challenge wads). Zero press/impse glides would be insane to put as intended strategies in a normal wad. Item bumping would also suck because of the directions you have to do in a really finnick-y way. I have seen rocket jumps mandatory in some challenge wads, I think it's fine as long as the jump isn't super tight. I have also seen Archvile jumps be mandatory, but usually this is done like.... You spawn in a box with a vile in front of or behind you and you need the vile to blast you up out of the box, rather than a jump that you have to intentionally line up somewhere. Glides (going through cracks) would be very unfriendly, both as mandatory progression and secrets, but honestly I think it would be completely fine to use guided glides for secrets... But I think most wouldn't agree.

Pretty much, most of the tricks would be unfriendly at best and would probably make most players instantly quit, at worst. This is all assuming these would be used in a regular pwad intended for casual gameplay and not something like the practice hub that is geared specifically towards speedrunners as an audience.

 

To be honest, I don't even know what a Zero press/zero press is. Is that where you can 'glide' across the outer surface on a monster. I have heard that under certain conditions this is possible. I also know it is possible to wedge yourself between a monster and a wall to springboard yourself away from that point of contact. (Thanks Karl Jobst for this insight.) But I have no idea what a zero press actually is as of right now. Guess it is time to hit up google again. :)

 

This is a limit removing vanilla megawad, and so far the only exploits that I have put in are as follows

:One secret that requires a moderately precise rocket jump (There is a secret invulnerability in the next room over, and there is also a good amount of armor in the progression up to that point.)

:In a couple of places you can use archvile jumps as a speedrunner to skip certain areas, (but regular progression does not require these.)

As far as I know there are no SR40 jumps required for progression, and certainly no SR50. No wallrunning required, and certainly no void glides haha. :)

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Appreciated.

 

9 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

There is no good answer...

 

On one hand, many people in the community know about straferunning, how to do it, and they made it a habit - on the other hand you have for example people like "Icaruslives" who has been running a mod-review-channel on YT for a very long time, all Doom-related, as far as I'm aware, and one unfortunate day he tested something Obsidian made, which had a mandatory SR40 jump in it, and he couldn't figure it out for hours...

 

It's for that reason that I think it is best to map with a supposed audience in mind while accepting that any given choice you may make while mapping might not be everybody's cup of tea...

 

My impression overall is that "modern maps" often assume people know how to SR40, and "modern hard maps" have places where SR50 is mandatory - but that is to be taken with a grain of salt, because I use SR40 all the time without even thinking about it. That said, my stance is that it's fine to assume SR40 will be accepted by a lot of people, while SR50 might ruffle some feathers - and the further down the rabbit hole of "trickeries" you go past SR40, the more sense it makes to be upfront about it when you release your product. That way, you can always say that you've been giving out a fair warning ahead of time.

 

Alternatively, and depending on how crafty you are, you could make environmental changes based on difficulty settings to have all bases covered. It's certainly also possible in vanilla format maps, although I will have to add that boom and anything more "advanced" than that will make the process significantly easier due to (pseudo) scripting...

 

I really like Icaruslives. I had assumed that he was something of a Doom expert, but apparently he is an enthusiastic amateur. (Much like my humble self.)

 

This is a limit removing vanilla megawad, and so far the only exploits that I have put in are as follows:

:One secret that requires a moderately precise rocket jump (There is a secret invulnerability in the next room over, and there is also a good amount of armor in the progression up to that point.)

:In a couple of places you can use archvile jumps as a speedrunner to skip certain areas, (but regular progression does not require these.)

As far as I know there are no SR40 jumps required for progression, and certainly no SR50. No wallrunning required, and certainly no void glides haha. :)

 

As stated above, it seems clear that I should not use SR40 for anything that is 'mission critical' and your post reinforces that point. I think the tricks I have used above are reasonable for a classic styled vanilla megawad. Appreciate the reply and the perspective offered. Cheers.

 

8 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Exactly. Straferunning is apparantly not so common among your average joe youtubers. Another youtuber I know is Kes Gaming, who has been playing Doom for over a year now, but I can guarantee that he would not have figured out straferunning if someone hadn't told him about it. What's funny is that he still doesn't use it because he finds it hard (even though SR40 is really easy to perform). And whenever he did SR40 for performing a jump, his jump is usually not better than what an experienced player can do with straight running.

 

See I would have assumed that Doom youtubers would be something of experts when it comes to Doom. Just being in and around the community for years, and I know exponentially more about Dooms mechanics/ports/playstyles/exploits/bugs etc etc than I had known before that point. I would have thought that DOom youtubers would have been in that same boat. It is clear that the majority of posts in this thread are of the opinion that All mission critical areas should be accessible by sprinting alone, and leave Straferunning for secrets/exploits, and your post is another reinforcement for that idea. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)

 

24 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

Straferunning? maybe for a secret area at most, nothing more than that. 

 

it bears repeating (it also happens to be a huge peeve of mine): Doom is NOT a platformer. It never was, it isn't and it will never be. It just doesn't have the control granularity and the physics necessary to be one. I still have to see one map where straferunning isn't just an artificial gagstop meant to frustrate. 

 

As I have said to other replies above, so many of the posts here reinforce the point that SR40 should not be used for mission critical areas required for progression, but kept for secrets/speedrunning exploits/non essential areas etc etc. And yes I agree that Doom is not a platformer. This whole thread was triggered by a single strafejump from a big open area across a non harmful drop to another large raised area - hardly a difficult task. I was just using this thread to calculate the distance between the two platforms. Should it be reachable by sprinting or should it be further apart and reachable by SR40. Glad I asked! Thanks for your reply. Appreciated.

[ReaperAA]

Just to make it clear, I am not particularly against SR40 or even SR50 being required if the wad in question is meant for experienced/veteran players. But since this is TNT: Forever we are talking about, which as you said would be an accessible difficulty wad, it would not be a great idea to add that.

 

42 minutes ago, Kyka said:

See I would have assumed that Doom youtubers would be something of experts when it comes to Doom

 

There are plenty of pro youtuber players (even apart from Zeromaster or Decino). But there are also plenty of newbie/average joe players there. Players of all skill levels exist on YT. Also, most of the newbie players don't usually visit Doomworld/Doomwiki and thus don't easily get to learn about the advanced techniques.

Edited January 9, 2022 by ReaperAA

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I use a controller, so SR40/50 can be a buzzkill for me.

[Crusader No Regret]

I didn't figure out straferunning for several years.  And I probably would have not discovered it until learning about it in Goldeneye on the N64 and deciding to try it in Doom.  Probably better to not assume that everyone can straferun consistently, let alone in a stressful combat situation.

 

  While I support a position of 'don't require it for primary progression, fine for optional secrets," knowing which audience you're making maps for will be of bigger importance.  Requiring straferuns to progress is not inherently right or wrong; Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta are examples of big-name releases with straferuns that are required to complete them.

[Nefelibeta]

On 1/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, Maribo said:

Glides (going through cracks) would be very unfriendly, both as mandatory progression and secrets, but honestly I think it would be completely fine to use guided glides for secrets... But I think most wouldn't agree.

Oh shit, I actually placed one of those in my maps.

 

But, honestly, I actually want to see arch-vile jumps to be utilized during fights rather than for secret hunting. Sacrificing health to get access to health/ammo or a place that gives you advantage almost seems like a good gimmick to me on paper. (if executed well of course)

[brick]

To reiterate what some have already said, it depends who your target audience is. If you want to challenge experienced Doomers in the community, by all means go ahead.

 

BUT, I'm going to challenge the assumption that "everyone" knows how to straferun or that it's "basic". I'm not going to call it an outright bug, but it is an engine quirk that doesn't really make sense (it's just a byproduct of how the math behind movement works) and, more importantly, that was absolutely not anticipated by id and not taken into account in the IWADs (at least according to Romero). I particularly disagree with RHhe82's assessment - nothing in the IWADs ever needs it (not even secrets) and I don't even remember any particular point where it's a great help, and it's really not something that comes naturally at all (try it in real life :P ) so there's absolutely no reason someone coming out of the IWADs would have ever tried, unless they're speedrunners. And as someone who's been playing Doom since 1993 (and user wads since not long after) but didn't really interact with the community until recently, I can assure you most people outside here don't know it exists unless they've already been stuck in a wad that requires it and had to look up a walkthrough.

 

Of course if you really want it in there, just mention in the readme that it will be required. You don't even have to mention what it is - anyone who doesn't know will look it up, and if they decide that's not something they want to bother with at least they won't get rage-stuck later on.

[DuckReconMajor]

On 1/8/2022 at 7:57 PM, Edward850 said:

Just be aware that regardless of how well known or not strafe-running is, strafe-running isn't always possible under every configuration. It's typically harder for joysticks to perform given they have physically rounded input.

 

Yeah my mind immediately went to "your wad becomes a Unity port official add-on but no one on console can play it" lol

[Biodegradable]

On 1/10/2022 at 2:34 AM, Kyka said:

Next question. Is it reasonable to place a regular progression exit switch in a totally isolated room, reachable only by void glide? Everyone knows how to void glide amirite? Surely void glides are universally known?

 

It's safe to assume most of us who are deeply entrenched in the community at least have a rudimentary understanding of what a Void Glide is, but it's also safe to assume a lot of us aren't speedrunners with the aptitude or patience to pull off such a maneuver. Depending on aforementioned target audience or how accessible you want your map to be in general, I'd personally avoid trying to get the player to do a Void Glide for mandatory progression since it's mainly a speedrunning strat. Honestly, I'd avoid using any speedrunning strats for mandatory progression in general. But that's all up to you at the end of the day.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Biodegradable

[Kyka]

2 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

It's safe to assume most of us who are deeply entrenched in the community at least have a rudimentary understanding of what a Void Glide is, but it's also safe to assume a lot of us aren't speedrunners with the aptitude or patience to pull off such a maneuver. Depending on aforementioned target audience or how accessible you want your map to be in general, I'd personally avoid trying to get the player to do a Void Glide for mandatory progression since it's mainly a speedrunning strat. Honestly, I'd avoid using any speedrunning strats for mandatory progression in general. But that's all up to you at the end of the day.

 

Dammit, apparently my irony didn't carry over. I agree with what you have said. Yeah there will be no void glides. I have never accomplished a void glide. I have never glided my way through that small area that allows you to break Doom2 map02. I can't glide. I'm just not that good.  :)